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Author Topic: Calibrating to different gamuts  (Read 2324 times)

Brammers

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Calibrating to different gamuts
« on: November 07, 2010, 07:11:34 AM »

I'm struggling to find this info elsewhere, so I'd like to pick your brains here if I may.

I've taken receipt of a Spectraview 271 and find it absolutely wonderful.  I can use the accompanying Spectraview Profiler software along with my Spyder 3 puck to create a profile that looks excellent in colour managed apps, but looks very red when viewing sRGB images out of colour managed apps.  I assume that this is the result of having created a profile with the monitor in a mode that displays the full (well, nearly) aRGB gamut.

My first question concerns the best mode in which to calibrate the monitor for use with its full native gamut.  The monitor comes pre-configured with several modes that look promising: aRGB, 'full' mode and a custom mode.  I'm currently using it in the custom mode - is this correct?

I'd also like to know what people do when they require sRGB viewing.  Do you simply switch the monitor over to sRGB using the pre-made mode, or do you calibrate in that mode, and then load that profile while switching the mode over?  I'm confused as to whether an ICC profile can limit a screen's gamut - I don't believe it can.

Finally, I use a smaller monitor for tools at the side.  Although this isn't essential, it would be nice if I could calibrate that screen too.  The Spectraview software seems to calibrate it well, but then appears to load that profile into both screens, as the jump to warm that occurs with the smaller screen occurs to the NEC screen too.  The issue seems to be related to seperate profiles not being loaded, but my ATI FirePro v4800 on Win 7 64bit should support seperate LUTs.  I'm sure I'm just missing a simple setting somewhere - could somebody point me in the right direction?

Many thanks!
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Steve Weldon

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Re: Calibrating to different gamuts
« Reply #1 on: November 07, 2010, 07:54:15 AM »

1.  You need to define your needs.   (what you're going to use your 'output' for, web viewing, print by inkjet, print at Costco, print at home, etc, etc)

2.  Make a profile for your monitor which 'restricts' the monitor to your intended output, and then process your images for that output using this specific profile. 

3.  I didn't know SVII would make a profile for a non-NEC/SVII compatible LUT.. but if it does, you need to go to Control Panel/Color Management and then make sure the appropriate profiles are assigned to the corresponding monitors.  It's that simple   Your PA271a uses an internal LUT (internal to the monitor) so it doesn't use your video card LUT.. which leaves it free to run another monitor if you wish.

It's a pipe dream at best to think you can process your images on your monitor at the widest possible gamut and then have them work okay across the spectrum of mediums (web viewing, other monitors, prints, etc, etc).  Unfortunately it doesn't work that way.. because that would certainly take the work out of color management.

I'm personally using "sRGB Emulation"  (LCD2690uxi2) for processing images intended for web viewing, I modify sRGB Emulation for a max lum of 180 for general web surfing, I have a profile I use to make prints on my Epson inkjets, another profile for a Fuji Frontier system at the local photolab, another profile for the guy with the wide carriage inkjets who makes my largest prints, and so on and so on.  And in case you're wondering, yes.. I often have several copies of the finished image, each labeled with it's intended output device, so that specific rendering of the image matches the output device as desired.  If anyone has a better way of doing this I'm all ears.. :)

The internal LUT monitors make possible, 1 workstation for many outputs.  Before, you'd need one dedicated workstation for each output your serviced. 
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Brammers

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Re: Calibrating to different gamuts
« Reply #2 on: November 07, 2010, 08:18:30 AM »

Thanks for your reply Steve.

1.  You need to define your needs.   (what you're going to use your 'output' for, web viewing, print by inkjet, print at Costco, print at home, etc, etc)

When profiling for the full colour gamut, I'm looking at inkjet prints.  When I wish to restrict the monitor to sRGB, I'm looking at web use.


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2.  Make a profile for your monitor which 'restricts' the monitor to your intended output, and then process your images for that output using this specific profile. 

Yes, this is what I intend to do, but how do I go about doing that?  I'm aware that I can calibrate to different brightnesses, TRCs, white points, black points etc, but nowhere in the software have I seen the option to calibrate to different gamuts.  Am I correct in assuming that I should set the gamut through the screen itself using the different modes it offers?

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3.  I didn't know SVII would make a profile for a non-NEC/SVII compatible LUT.. but if it does, you need to go to Control Panel/Color Management and then make sure the appropriate profiles are assigned to the corresponding monitors.  It's that simple   Your PA271a uses an internal LUT (internal to the monitor) so it doesn't use your video card LUT.. which leaves it free to run another monitor if you wish.

I'm using a European screen, so it comes with Spectraview Profiler, not SVII - apparantly there is a difference.  Spectraview Profiler seems very happy to calibrate my non-NEC screen, but then seems to apply the resulting profile to both screens...  I'll have a root around in the control panel and see if anything looks odd.  If Spectraview Profiler is applying the profile directly to the screen's internal LUT, would it even appear in Control Panel?

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It's a pipe dream at best to think you can process your images on your monitor at the widest possible gamut and then have them work okay across the spectrum of mediums (web viewing, other monitors, prints, etc, etc).  Unfortunately it doesn't work that way.. because that would certainly take the work out of color management.

I'm personally using "sRGB Emulation"  (LCD2690uxi2) for processing images intended for web viewing, I modify sRGB Emulation for a max lum of 180 for general web surfing, I have a profile I use to make prints on my Epson inkjets, another profile for a Fuji Frontier system at the local photolab, another profile for the guy with the wide carriage inkjets who makes my largest prints, and so on and so on.  And in case you're wondering, yes.. I often have several copies of the finished image, each labeled with it's intended output device, so that specific rendering of the image matches the output device as desired.  If anyone has a better way of doing this I'm all ears.. :)

The internal LUT monitors make possible, 1 workstation for many outputs.  Before, you'd need one dedicated workstation for each output your serviced. 

What you describe there is exactly how I intend to do things, I'm just not quite sure on how to do so yet.  In particular, when switching between sRGB and aRGB on your 2690, what do you actually do?  If we imagine that you're in aRGB mode for the moment, getting a file ready to print.  You then want to upload that file to your website.  How do you switch to sRGB?  Do you switch to sRGB Emulation on the monitor?  Do you load a different display profile?  Or maybe both?

Thanks again!
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Czornyj

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Re: Calibrating to different gamuts
« Reply #3 on: November 07, 2010, 08:59:10 AM »

New Spectraview Profiler/basICColor display 5 is expected in a couple of days (or weeks?), and it will also be able to calibrate the gamut of the display. Now you can use the free Multiprofiler software, that calibrates/profiles the display gamut without sensor, basing on averaged factory measurements.

Use device manager to check if both displays are properly identified, and if the profiles are correctly asigned to each one of them in Color Management settings. If there's a problem, try to install monitor drivers, and install newest graphic card drivers.

Brammers

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Re: Calibrating to different gamuts
« Reply #4 on: November 07, 2010, 10:04:58 AM »

New Spectraview Profiler/basICColor display 5 is expected in a couple of days (or weeks?), and it will also be able to calibrate the gamut of the display. Now you can use the free Multiprofiler software, that calibrates/profiles the display gamut without sensor, basing on averaged factory measurements.

Fantastic - just the tool I was after.

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Use device manager to check if both displays are properly identified, and if the profiles are correctly asigned to each one of them in Color Management settings. If there's a problem, try to install monitor drivers, and install newest graphic card drivers.

This all seems good and all drivers are up to date.  I'll have another crack later using the generic rather than home-made profiles.
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Steve Weldon

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Re: Calibrating to different gamuts
« Reply #5 on: November 07, 2010, 10:12:28 AM »

I haven't used and am not familiar with the European version of the NEC software..

It seems a popular thing to do, to buy the SVII colorimeter/software kit for those in Europe.

I can tell you how SVII works though.. if you're not happy with the new software when it's released or maybe if SVII offers more along the lines of what you're looking for this information will be helpful.

First, with SVII you really aren't choosing a gamut.  At least with the LCD2690uxi2.  What you can do is choose your white point, luminosity, gamma, and/or enter custom curves.  These values 'relate' to different gamuts such as CMYK, sRGB, Adobe98, etc..   When you set the values and the monitor is profiled, overlays for sRGB and Adobe98 and some others gamuts so you can get a visual representation of how much/little of the gamut your monitor now covers.  

An exception is the 'sRGB Emulation' mode which 'clamps' down on the gamut restricting it to sRGB which is very useful for those who web publish.  Actually it's brilliant.

And if you consider.. that web publishing is really the only output we create where many unprofiled users are viewing.. it makes sense.   Other profiles are just for our prints, or a profiled photolab..

Curious how the European half does this..
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Czornyj

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Re: Calibrating to different gamuts
« Reply #6 on: November 07, 2010, 12:19:43 PM »

First, with SVII you really aren't choosing a gamut.
There's 3D LUT in PA/Spectraview Reference displays, so not only you can calibrate the wtpt/bkpt and TRC, but also change the size and shape of the gamut.

Brammers

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Re: Calibrating to different gamuts
« Reply #7 on: November 07, 2010, 08:10:54 PM »

I haven't used and am not familiar with the European version of the NEC software..

It seems a popular thing to do, to buy the SVII colorimeter/software kit for those in Europe.

Steve, I believe this is for those buying the Multisync version of the screen, which comes without the calibration software.  The Spectraview versions come with bundled software that gives direct access to the panel.

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An exception is the 'sRGB Emulation' mode which 'clamps' down on the gamut restricting it to sRGB which is very useful for those who web publish.  Actually it's brilliant.

Yes - my screen also supports this.  Although it's a moot point for my needs now, since Spectraview Profiler 5 seems to be about to come out which will let me create my own profiles as well as locking down the gamut, I'm interested in the process that you use to select sRGB Emulation mode.  From your description of the US Spectraview software, it would appear that you calibrate and use a combination of your chosen white point, luminosity, gamma, and enter custom curves to end up at the sRGB gamut.  Am I right there?  I can't say I've ever heard of things being done like that before.  Before asking this question I was simply selecting the sRGB mode from the OSD, but this of course uses the factory profile rather than a user created one. 

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And if you consider.. that web publishing is really the only output we create where many unprofiled users are viewing.. it makes sense.   Other profiles are just for our prints, or a profiled photolab..

Indeed - and also it's great for non-colour critical work too.  It's nice not to have garish colours when just using a bit of MS Word!
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TimBarker

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Re: Calibrating to different gamuts
« Reply #8 on: November 08, 2010, 04:35:01 AM »

If I understand the documentation properly the PA series come with 4 built in 'gamuts', 'sRGB', 'Adobe RGB', 'Full' and 'High Bright' which don't change when you profile the screen.  Profiling just impacts on the 5th one and changes each time you reprofile.  It should be possible to adjust a photo to print out as expected and then just change the screen to sRGB via the OSM to see what it would look like if you copied the photo as is into a web page.
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Tim Barker (aka MandoTiM in other forums),
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Steve Weldon

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Re: Calibrating to different gamuts
« Reply #9 on: November 08, 2010, 01:48:57 PM »

There's 3D LUT in PA/Spectraview Reference displays, so not only you can calibrate the wtpt/bkpt and TRC, but also change the size and shape of the gamut.

I don't know why I didn't put the pieces I read about 3d LUT's together to know this.. Thanks!

Kinda makes me wonder what I'm missing with my 2690's.. I love how I can now easily match sRGB either in print (local print shop) or on the web.. being able to do the same with Prophoto or even Adobe98 to that degree of accuracy would be great.
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Steve Weldon

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Re: Calibrating to different gamuts
« Reply #10 on: November 08, 2010, 02:05:26 PM »

I'm interested in the process that you use to select sRGB Emulation mode.  From your description of the US Spectraview software, it would appear that you calibrate and use a combination of your chosen white point, luminosity, gamma, and enter custom curves to end up at the sRGB gamut.  Am I right there?  I can't say I've ever heard of things being done like that before.  Before asking this question I was simply selecting the sRGB mode from the OSD, but this of course uses the factory profile rather than a user created one. 

NEC makes it easy.. There is a OSD choice, but I never use the OSD.. in fact I have it locked out.  All control is done by SVII which I have pinned to my task bar.

Basically.. you call up the SVII application, and it gives you a choice of profiles which are pre-created by NEC or ones you make yourself.  You can modify all the pre-created NEC profiles EXCEPT the sRGB emulation. 

To profile for sRGB you simply select the "sRGB Emulation" profile, all the choices will be grey'd out (luminance, gamma, white point, etc), place the colorimeter on the screen.. and let SVII do it's thing.  The profile it creates is the one it will now use when you select "sRGB Emulation" from the menu in SVII.

The other choices such as "Print Standard" "CMYK" and others.. you select them, change any of the parameters as necessary, then profile using the colorimeter.  You do this with every profile you need/want.

Then.. using SVII you can click on the profile you need.. and about 30 seconds later the monitor as changed itself to whatever profile you selected.  A brilliant system.

I'd imagine the PA series work exactly the same with SVII here in Asia or the US.. but maybe with more choices to take advantage of the 3D LUT.

I've heard/read that the PA series is calibrated so well at the factory.. that having your own colorimeter and profiling is of marginal value.  Perhaps.. but the SVII set isn't that expensive and I'd rather have it than not.. and double check things.

I'll probably buy a pair of PA271's next spring.. not sure yet.  I use monitors in pairs.  I'm a die hard dual monitor person and totally convinced it increased productivity quite a bit.. at least if the operator can multi-task.   My 2690's are only 4-5 months old and work fine.. but I'm thinking I might have the need to add a second workstation.
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