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Author Topic: An olive branch from 35mm - we're not all crazy.  (Read 9750 times)

bcooter

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Re: An olive branch from 35mm - we're not all crazy.
« Reply #20 on: October 28, 2010, 02:35:36 pm »

Quite why this is now in danger of turning into a 'one format compared to another thread' is beyond me.

If I understand the OP correctly he is saying he feels he has more in common with the folk that post here rather than on the small format threads. This forum has always attracted those who earn their crust in the industry regardless of the size of the sensor they use. The problem is this is the 'Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography Forum' and therein lays disharmony, and if I understand the position of the OP, the reason for this thread.


Agreed.

This section of the forum tends to be format myopic, as if a few millimeters here or there will have any effect or whether a photographer is considered good, or professional decided by what type of camera they own. 

This section of the forum also tends to be schizophrenic. 

One on hand it endeavors to reach the more advanced amateur or professional photographer, but still clings to a heading that is format restrictive, allowing certain people to adopt the role of moderator police desperately trying to hold to a certain standard that is virtually irrelevant and  doesn't exist in the professional world.

Worse it draws the brand and format brigade to argue like a moth to a flame.  Every time I see one of these format, brand war threads, it reminds me of those guys that sit in sports bars, have crocked arguing why the Red Sox suck and the Yankees are divine.  (or vice versa).  It's conversation that goes nowhere.

I understand the camera reps and dealers pushing a brand or format, especially since the margins are higher on the more expensive cameras, but every time I hear a photographer scream they would only shoot with one format, I think, wow, how limiting.

When  I see a photograph posted on the "show your image section" (or whatever it's called, I think of all the thousands of really outstanding photographs shot with everything from 35mm to Point and Shoots that would be excluded (once again by the self appointment format police), if you could ever get those photographers to post and share here anyway.

In a way I think that is a shame because this could be a great place for real discussion on what it takes to produce, style, shoot and deliver an exceptional photograph without some kind of outdated format requirement.  All because of a few millimeters in frame size means something to someone that still clings to their 7 year old 22mpx camera back.

Now in all honesty, I shoot the camera(s) I am comfortable with.  I love and use my contax (plural), but am not silly enough to think that it works for all, or sometimes most circumstances.  I actually would buy into the Hasselblad system today (and still might) just because I would like a little higher sync speed for some images, but I don't know that I want to drop even $20,000 in today's world for another system.   I can think of a lot better places to put my money that will move my career forward.

I hate to say it, but in today's digital photography world, the camera format or brand has less to do with the photograph than probably anytime in history.

In the days of film, few buyers of photography asked or cared about the format, even though there was usually a different look or style associated with format.  There's exception to every rule, because there was also specific functions you could only do with a large format film cameras, though today many of these functions are now done in software, blending of images and retouching/post production.

In fact  in the film days,  90% of the reasons we used any of the larger formats was it made it easier for clients to edit, without having to bend over and look at a thousand slides through a loupe, or retouch directly on a large format transparency or print.

But even then most camera and format choices were the decision and domain of the photographer. 

With digital capture, the light box is now a computer screen, the format's  so detailed and large that all of them cover much more than the 2000 pixel wide canvas every client uses to preview and edit.

In digital two available formats, 645 (or almost 645) and 35mm are very close together.  So close that printing for your portfolio, a short run book, or web display shows little difference.   I have portfolios of all sizes up to 13x19 pages and nobody that looks ever comments about any part of the technical requirements.

The questions I do get revolve around budget, crew size, how I handle post production, work with the subject, create or add to the creative brief, deliver a project  (the list goes on) but it is a given that most creative buyers of content know that a good photographer will use what's appropriate and they also know that 99.999% of all professional digital cameras will fit almost any need.

What I do know is years ago medium format camera/back makers shot themselves in the foot or better put blew their legs off  by not keeping up with moveable iso and a decent lcd preview.   If anything kills the buzz of a shoot, it's having to always be tethered to view and display an image that looks close to what the intended version will be.  Some of this would be passable if the medium format makers cameras weren't priced at double the smaller formats and usually required double the workflow and time in workflow matters.

Last night I flew in and got to the studio at 11:15.  I had a weeks shoot that had to be processed for web galleries, edited and displayed by the deadline of this morning and working straight through we finished at 6:45 am.   Now had I shot a camera that really had the ability to embed a look into the file, produce an in camera jpeg large enough for web display without processing, I could have cut my time down to 1/2 of that (at most).

So IMO it's not the size of the frame, it's the usability of the camera from start to finish.  Actually it's just about the photograph, nothing more.   

Maybe I'm stubborn enough to use the cameras I want to use (which does include medium format), but sometimes I even shake my head and wonder why I bother.  Especially at 6:45 am.

BC
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fredjeang

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Re: An olive branch from 35mm - we're not all crazy.
« Reply #21 on: October 28, 2010, 03:11:53 pm »

snip...If anything kills the buzz of a shoot, it's having to always be tethered to view and display an image that looks close to what the intended version will be.  Some of this would be passable if the medium format makers cameras weren't priced at double the smaller formats and usually required double the workflow and time in workflow matters.

So IMO it's not the size of the frame, it's the usability of the camera from start to finish.  Actually it's just about the photograph, nothing more.  

BC

Amen #2
« Last Edit: October 28, 2010, 03:16:00 pm by fredjeang »
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Guy Mancuso

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Re: An olive branch from 35mm - we're not all crazy.
« Reply #22 on: October 28, 2010, 03:22:55 pm »

it's the usability of the camera from start to finish.


That was what I was talking about. All the other stuff i have no idea where you pick that up but you seem to repeat it excessively. I shoot multiple formats but prefer the MF one. End of story
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Zenny

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35mm also gives nice shots on times!
« Reply #23 on: October 28, 2010, 03:25:47 pm »

Nice tone of your picture.

I agree that the format of the camera has nothing to do with the keeping the historical records, but on aesthetics and details, the format has a lot to do imho. Maybe because I started with a 4x4 film and still stuck with 6x7 format film. For convenience's sake, 35mm is good, but if you plan to enlarge to huge sizes MF and LF are necessary

35mm also gives nice shots on times! Visit this link: http://www.onelifephotos.com/drbista to check.

zenny
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pcunite

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Re: An olive branch from 35mm - we're not all crazy.
« Reply #24 on: October 28, 2010, 03:31:17 pm »

In a way I think that is a shame because this could be a great place for real discussion on what it takes to produce, style, shoot and deliver an exceptional photograph without some kind of outdated format requirement.  All because of a few millimeters in frame size means something to someone that still clings to their 7 year old 22mpx camera back.

Thanks for commenting in my thread... I was hoping you would drop by. It would be awesome if there was a safe place to have these types of discussions if they where also be beneficial to persons like yourself. I know I could really use it!

I am right now putting together a big shoot for me. If all goes well I will have full access to a once a month section of a magazine and I will get to shoot it however I want. How sweet is that! I have to prove myself though. This mean I have to do it all, getting the models, choosing the clothes, securing the location, making it all come together... light the thing, push the shutter button, post process, deliver. Yikes!!!! If I do this right I'm am going to be good, do this wrong... I might have more time for posting! ;)

It has given me such repect for you guys. In the past I would see an image an think "I could do that, plus I'd fix that!". Now I think "how did he pull all that off by himself?"
« Last Edit: October 28, 2010, 03:34:01 pm by pcunite »
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Rob C

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Re: An olive branch from 35mm - we're not all crazy.
« Reply #25 on: October 28, 2010, 03:34:41 pm »

"I don't like 35mm forums. I don't like their images, I don't like their technique, and I don't like their owner's attitudes."

What an astonishing expression of arrogance. A prize-winning post.

I hope you stay right here as I don't have any mf gear and don't visit very often. And, fwiw (as a 35mm user, probably nothing) your posted image is a banal snapshot; in my ever-so-humble, amateur opinion.

Roy


Roy, I'm afraid I have to agre with you. It does zero for me, whether on 8x10, 5x7, 4x5, 120 or 35mm and all the minor English sizes in between. But, it's a big world. And so many effing emperors! In my once-pro, now-am point of view. (A dedicated has-been, then, which is always better than a never-was.)

;-)

Rob C

pcunite

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Re: An olive branch from 35mm - we're not all crazy.
« Reply #26 on: October 28, 2010, 03:45:39 pm »

Roy, I'm afraid I have to agre with you. It does zero for me,

The image is a carefully selected one. I know what kind of response I would get if the woman was very young and mostly unclothed. There are subtle things in the image, that I like, when I look beyond seeing another young face. It does loose its effect somewhat resized for the web, the DOF seemed to change for one thing.
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wolfnowl

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Re: An olive branch from 35mm - we're not all crazy.
« Reply #27 on: October 28, 2010, 05:23:13 pm »

Well, as someone who used to sell 110/ 126 film cameras and Polaroids, and who's used everything from those to disposable film cameras to 35mm film/digital to medium format... as to the question of whether it's the camera or the photographer, to me it's obviously both.  I don't expect to make the same photographs with a Holga and a 4x5, but both can have their place.  What interests me is the image that's produced and how accurately it portrays the vision of the photographer.  No, you can't make a 20x30" print from a camera with a Lensbaby, or maybe you can.  A Phase One or Hasselblad isn't going to be making 10 fps anytime soon.  I'm intrigued by people who can master the equipment they have to work with, whatever it is.

Here, though, we're all looking at 72ppi (or thereabouts) images and there is some sort of filter built into that.  It may be that we can't realize the depth and beauty of a large print from an on screen .jpg, but in a way it does level the playing field.

And make mine ginger snaps, please!

Mike.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2010, 11:37:00 am by wolfnowl »
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Rob C

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Re: An olive branch from 35mm - we're not all crazy.
« Reply #28 on: October 29, 2010, 04:09:44 am »

And make mine ginger snaps, please!

Mike.


That's an amazing coincidence, Mike!

I have been off all biscuits for several years because of the heart problem and the total ban on animal fats, but I bought a packet of ginger biscuits just yesterday - you gotta have something to make up for weak coffee in the morning (no napalm allowed either) and I thought ginger would do it. I do allow myself proper coffee at lunchtime, but that's also against advice, so I add a soupçon of cognac in order to protect against the water, but that, too, is against the friggin' rules, which state a single glass of red wine per day. What the rules don't state, however, is what you should do if you don't like wine at all - take the single glass or do without, and if to take, who knows what ills might follow?

As you see, Shakespeare and Prendergast have a lot in common.

Rob C

Rob C

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Re: An olive branch from 35mm - we're not all crazy.
« Reply #29 on: October 29, 2010, 09:47:34 am »

An olive branch from 35mm - we're not all crazy.

Welcome to the 'Equipment & Techniques > Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs / Large Sensor Photography and Biscuits Forum'





Now you're talking!

;-)

Rob C

Edit: will any fruitcakes be allowed?
« Last Edit: October 29, 2010, 09:49:37 am by Rob C »
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ondebanks

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Re: An olive branch from 35mm - we're not all crazy.
« Reply #30 on: October 29, 2010, 10:35:48 am »




Now you're talking!

;-)

Rob C

Edit: will any fruitcakes be allowed?

Not only fruitcakes, but nutters as well!  :D

Ray
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pcunite

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Re: An olive branch from 35mm - we're not all crazy.
« Reply #31 on: October 29, 2010, 12:18:24 pm »

There is a polite insanity to this place, I love it!
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Rob C

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Re: An olive branch from 35mm - we're not all crazy.
« Reply #32 on: October 29, 2010, 12:48:33 pm »

There is a polite insanity to this place, I love it!


Well, membership is like Hotel California rules; you have been warned.

Rob C

Eric Myrvaagnes

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Re: An olive branch from 35mm - we're not all crazy.
« Reply #33 on: October 29, 2010, 03:35:43 pm »

My exhaustive tests on one sample of each kind prove conclusively that Whole Wheat Biscuits have 31.4159 more stops of Dynamic Range than do ordinary white biscuits.
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Guy Mancuso

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Re: An olive branch from 35mm - we're not all crazy.
« Reply #34 on: October 29, 2010, 04:39:00 pm »

Hah, DXO proves conclusively that my biscuit is better than all your pathetic biscuits combined.

Yea but how did you cook them. That's really what counts . LOL

I still want a freaking cookie from that sweet old lady. Probably damn good too.
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Rob C

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Re: An olive branch from 35mm - we're not all crazy.
« Reply #35 on: October 29, 2010, 04:55:06 pm »

Yea but how did you cook them. That's really what counts . LOL

I still want a freaking cookie from that sweet old lady. Probably damn good too.



So you tasted the old lady instead of the cookies? Worrying... but nothing really surprises me much anymore.

Rob C

Guy Mancuso

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Re: An olive branch from 35mm - we're not all crazy.
« Reply #36 on: October 29, 2010, 05:36:41 pm »



So you tasted the old lady instead of the cookies? Worrying... but nothing really surprises me much anymore.

Rob C

ROTFLMAO.

Okay Rob you get a check mark. That was a good one. Now how many of those whisky's did you have today again. LOL

Have a nice weekend folks
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fredjeang

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Re: An olive branch from 35mm - we're not all crazy.
« Reply #37 on: October 29, 2010, 05:38:52 pm »

My exhaustive tests on one sample of each kind prove conclusively that Whole Wheat Biscuits have 31.4159 more stops of Dynamic Range than do ordinary white biscuits.
But if the biscuits are light, you are in a serious diet and the sensor's size will be dramatically reduced. Oh well, you'll loose weight.
I caught Guy. It's because he likes big chocolate cakes that he doesn't want to reduce format.

Good week-end too.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2011, 01:38:28 pm by fredjeang »
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Fritzer

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Re: An olive branch from 35mm - we're not all crazy.
« Reply #38 on: October 29, 2010, 06:23:58 pm »

In a way I think that is a shame because this could be a great place for real discussion on what it takes to produce, style, shoot and deliver an exceptional photograph without some kind of outdated format requirement.  All because of a few millimeters in frame size means something to someone that still clings to their 7 year old 22mpx camera back.

Agreed; however, I think you got the last part the wrong way around.
What MFDB shooter does actually worship equipment ?
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RobertJ

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Re: An olive branch from 35mm - we're not all crazy.
« Reply #39 on: October 30, 2010, 12:09:59 am »

I would love the image if you shot wider, closer to the woman, and at the largest aperture possible.

Watch some Stanley Kubrick movies.  You'll see what I mean.
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