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Author Topic: Newbie potential adviced to repost here - thanks  (Read 3303 times)

sanzari

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Newbie potential adviced to repost here - thanks
« on: October 19, 2010, 05:48:38 pm »

I  am ready to step (not leap or plunge) into the MF world and have narrowed it down to a Phase one or Leaf back. Likely secondhand and liekly a Mamiya body of some type.

Seems like in the UK the secondhand market is either controlled with refurb or non existent so really struggling to understnad how you enter a closed market ?

Seems like 3 year old backs do not exist or are still commanding 10k Huh?

I want to go to Africa later this year with something special, with the Pentax at £9k UK or £6.5 K US, and the Hassye 39-II now below 10k ? I was thinking things might start shaing up.

I feel coming from a Nikon D3 , I only need 28 meg pixels ?? and I like the LEaf which claims 12 stop DR as opposed to 6 given by the Nikon's ??

Happy to be educated in all areas if anyone has an opinion, even Phase one said this was the best forum for advice !!!
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gazwas

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Re: Newbie potential adviced to repost here - thanks
« Reply #1 on: October 19, 2010, 07:04:41 pm »

....... even Phase one said this was the best forum for advice !!!

For PhaseOne advice/sales yes!   :D

Not sure what your trip to Africa involves but I can't think of a better camera than the Nikon D3X to take, regardless of format and you'll get the same DR from the Nikon as you would any MFD back.

£10K doesn't get you much more than a camera, back and standard lens in the MF world but if you must go MFD then that new Hasselblad H4D-31 does seem like a truly fantastic camera for the money. PhaseOne P40+ will cost a few thousand more but will get you a slightly newer (not sure if its any better though?) chip design and a few more MP. Never used one but a Leaf back with I think have an inbuilt cooling fan in combo with dry dusty environments (Africa) spells trouble to me.

Unless its a refurb, taking a second hand ebay purchased camera on a trip of a lifetime would worry me.

Food for thought

Gareth.
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eronald

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Re: Newbie potential adviced to repost here - thanks
« Reply #2 on: October 19, 2010, 07:23:54 pm »

For PhaseOne advice/sales yes!   :D

Not sure what your trip to Africa involves but I can't think of a better camera than the Nikon D3X to take, regardless of format and you'll get the same DR from the Nikon as you would any MFD back.
Food for thought

Gareth.

I concur. I would get a new D3x with a 70/200, a used D3 or D700 (same mount, same batteries) as backup, a wider zoom and one of those huge Nikon teles for fun if the money stretches that far.

I also agree that the only MF camera which would make sense is a Hassy, but frankly I don't think it's what you want when you need reach.

Edmund
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Dennis Carbo

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Re: Newbie potential adviced to repost here - thanks
« Reply #3 on: October 19, 2010, 07:37:39 pm »

OP has the D3 not D3X however...I think I would favor a DSLR in the bush as well even the D3 AT 12.3 mp files are clean and camera is fast, however the D3/D3X does not have the DR of a MFDB..... close but not quite in my experience.  I know Nikon claims a huge DR like a MFDB but I didnt see it.  Havent seen an independent test that says that either...please post a link if you have seen such a test I would be very interested ...it was one of the things that I really hoped were true !

Anyway..I say go with the D3 its pretty bulletproof as well

D

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eronald

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Re: Newbie potential adviced to repost here - thanks
« Reply #4 on: October 19, 2010, 07:45:56 pm »

If the OP already has a D3 and really, really wants bigger files, adding a D3x is a no-brainer - the Nikon glass is excellent, and he'll be using a camera he already knows well how to use.

I agree with not quite the DR, but the "almost" is pretty close, as the DxO tests show. Links are in my post on this board at http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=47273.msg395455#msg395455

Once you're above ISO 400, and the light is going,  it looks like the D3x is pretty much the best game in town. See the image crop comparison http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=47273.msg396073#msg396073


OP has the D3 not D3X however...I think I would favor a DSLR in the bush as well even the D3 AT 12.3 mp files are clean and camera is fast, however the D3/D3X does not have the DR of a MFDB..... close but not quite in my experience.  I know Nikon claims a huge DR like a MFDB but I didnt see it.  Havent seen an independent test that says that either...please post a link if you have seen such a test I would be very interested ...it was one of the things that I really hoped were true !

Anyway..I say go with the D3 its pretty bulletproof as well

D


« Last Edit: October 19, 2010, 07:52:21 pm by eronald »
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Dennis Carbo

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Re: Newbie potential adviced to repost here - thanks
« Reply #5 on: October 19, 2010, 08:28:40 pm »



"Once you're above ISO 400, and the light is going,  it looks like the D3x is pretty much the best game in town. See the image crop comparison http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=47273.msg396073#msg396073"

[/quote]

Good Point I missed that...you are absolutely right...I am so used to shooting  Still objects at ISO 40 on my DB I wasnt thinking...I would bet at ISO 400 the D3X is king and probably actually does have better DR at that ISO. My bad   ;D...........If anyone would like to send me a D3X I would be happy to test it some more  ;)
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eronald

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Re: Newbie potential adviced to repost here - thanks
« Reply #6 on: October 19, 2010, 09:14:48 pm »

I believe the D3x has the best DR of any camera on the market at ISO 400. And there is definitely a use for cameras set to 400 ISO. As I stated in some other post I think we made a collective mistake on this subforum, we assumed that the D3x is just a better 5D2 or D3 or 1Ds3; well, it isn't, it's a different animal.

I hope you people noticed that I ADDED NOISE to my 1600 ISO D3x images :)

I do this now routinely as part of my amateur workflow, it gives a sharper look, often taking the place of sharpening.

I do think the H4D40 is a very good camera. I'm certain it will outshoot the D3x at low ISO, and it can be useful in real-life light because of the higher ISO it can manage.

Edmund


"Once you're above ISO 400, and the light is going,  it looks like the D3x is pretty much the best game in town. See the image crop comparison http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=47273.msg396073#msg396073"



Good Point I missed that...you are absolutely right...I am so used to shooting  Still objects at ISO 40 on my DB I wasnt thinking...I would bet at ISO 400 the D3X is king and probably actually does have better DR at that ISO. My bad   ;D...........If anyone would like to send me a D3X I would be happy to test it some more  ;)
« Last Edit: October 19, 2010, 09:24:14 pm by eronald »
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sanzari

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Re: Newbie potential adviced to repost here - thanks
« Reply #7 on: October 20, 2010, 03:28:33 am »

You guys are awesome. Thank you for the new angles and info.

I will be travelling in remote Kenya shooting portraits mostly with a guide to capture the positive outcomes of the investment in some orphanages. I have been quality obsessed hence the MF.

I do have a D3 and associated pro lenses and I will be doing two small safaris but main reason is to shoot the portraits.

So now I have to consider does the D3X give me enough. I have D700 also likely for back up so I think it makes sense but there is a small MF niggle.

I will be taking a quantum flash set up for Nikon or an elinchrom quadra set up if I go MF.

Weight tells me dslr - I guess I will research the DR a little more Africa does have some extremes of DR and I have filters to manage some of it but the DR will truly change the image quality if correct.

Am i on the right track ??
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gazwas

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Re: Newbie potential adviced to repost here - thanks
« Reply #8 on: October 20, 2010, 03:46:50 am »

I guess I will research the DR a little more Africa does have some extremes of DR and I have filters to manage some of it but the DR will truly change the image quality if correct.

Am i on the right track ??


At base ISO settings on the MFD back (ISO50 usually) you will get about 0.75 of a stop more DR on a Phase or Blad than the Nikon which to me is negligible when used in conjunction with filters and controlled lighting. MFD and DR used to be a huge selling point but its not as massive a difference from 35mm any longer.......

Take the Phase or Blad out of their comfort zone (ISO100,200,400) and the Nikon just keeps getting better in comparison.

Ultimate quality is MFD but is it the right tool for the job in your case?  ???
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sanzari

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Re: Newbie potential adviced to repost here - thanks
« Reply #9 on: October 20, 2010, 03:54:59 am »

Gazwas I think you moving me towards this decision. Right find a cheap D3X. Sorry to come onto the MF forum for DSLR advice but I think I may consider an older back with a manual bronica at some point.

Until then Africa beckons. And gazwas may well me right. .75 does seem low. And yes at 400iso it starts to be a no brainer

Thanks again I did not know the technical difference to be so low. Salesman !!!!
   
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Jim2

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Re: Newbie potential adviced to repost here - thanks
« Reply #10 on: October 20, 2010, 04:37:21 am »

Sorry for popping in here but I hope this is a relevant question since the previous posts mentioned that when the light is going, iso 400 will be better and hence choosing a d3x is smarter than using an MFDB.

At dawn or dusk, for example this photo:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/mupperoni/5007728610/

Would you increase the iso (to say 400?) instead of using the camera's base ISO (50 or 100 depending on the camera)? In other words, would an MFDB with ISO50 be performing badly at this type of scene / lighting condition?
« Last Edit: October 20, 2010, 04:39:33 am by Jim2 »
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gazwas

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Re: Newbie potential adviced to repost here - thanks
« Reply #11 on: October 20, 2010, 05:27:53 am »

Those stuff about the ultimate IQ are hilarious at the end. Everybody search the ultimate IQ like the holly grail but another question could be: do I shoot ultimate pictures? that deserves those ultimate IQ.

Was agreeing with you until your last statement and realised you must be drunk or a little too much in to yourself?

Anyone, regardless of ability has the right to own and shoot in MFD land. There is no pass exam or right to entrance. Starting out on the ladder to a MFD system is very expensive so its obvious questions about IQ, DR and pixel density come up in questions. If these question bug you don't read the threads. Who knows the OP might be one of the most mediocre photographers around (not idea, just making a point) but the jump to MFD and following their quest for ultimate IQ transforms their whole outlook on photography and catapults them into the stratosphere of celebrity photographers.

All your points are very valid as to why but I'm sure for most it boils down to that holy grail search question...... IQ.
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sanzari

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Re: Newbie potential adviced to repost here - thanks
« Reply #12 on: October 20, 2010, 06:08:11 am »

Gazwas thank you for your great summary.

To a point I am already a celeb photographer have shot a number of big weddings in Miami. The Nikon is great for this,

my post is about a venture into the land of MF as you point out. There is always an element of wanting to feel a great photographer LOL
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eronald

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Re: Newbie potential adviced to repost here - thanks
« Reply #13 on: October 20, 2010, 06:33:46 am »

In defense of fredjean, who actually said in another post that he was drunk - and why not, this is definitely an off-hours place - the problem with MF digital is that it is so kludgy it ends up getting in the way of the shot. And the MF makers have pulled a fast one on the reviewers, by insisting they make backs, so everyone just looks at DR, IQ, pixel density, but when you use  the *camera* (I should know, I own one), it often recoils like a revolver, focuses where you don't want it to, and offers a finder which looks like the porthole in a prison cell door. This the reviewers and their numbers don't discuss.


Edmund

Was agreeing with you until your last statement and realised you must be drunk or a little too much in to yourself?

Anyone, regardless of ability has the right to own and shoot in MFD land. There is no pass exam or right to entrance. Starting out on the ladder to a MFD system is very expensive so its obvious questions about IQ, DR and pixel density come up in questions. If these question bug you don't read the threads. Who knows the OP might be one of the most mediocre photographers around (not idea, just making a point) but the jump to MFD and following their quest for ultimate IQ transforms their whole outlook on photography and catapults them into the stratosphere of celebrity photographers.

All your points are very valid as to why but I'm sure for most it boils down to that holy grail search question...... IQ.
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ondebanks

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Re: Newbie potential adviced to repost here - thanks
« Reply #14 on: October 20, 2010, 07:26:43 am »

Sorry for popping in here but I hope this is a relevant question since the previous posts mentioned that when the light is going, iso 400 will be better and hence choosing a d3x is smarter than using an MFDB.

At dawn or dusk, for example this photo:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/mupperoni/5007728610/

Would you increase the iso (to say 400?) instead of using the camera's base ISO (50 or 100 depending on the camera)? In other words, would an MFDB with ISO50 be performing badly at this type of scene / lighting condition?

No; if you're shooting from a tripod, you'd stay with low ISO for that sort of photo. Switch to higher ISO if there is a concern about movement: either you the photographer not being able to handhold the camera steady over a longer exposure; or the subject moving (in an unwanted manner) during the longer exposure.
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eronald

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Re: Newbie potential adviced to repost here - thanks
« Reply #15 on: October 20, 2010, 08:03:05 am »

* and how was the H4D?
** and how was the H4D?
*** and how was the H4D?


The H4D focuses fine, has a nice finder, a usable backscreen, an unreadable control screen. I don't know how the controls play out in real use, the controls and lock buttons seemed teeny, while the camera is a bit large and kludgy. I'm not so happy about holding this thing vertically.

UPDATE. I was trying the 100/2.2. I'm not so sure :) that the infinity focus was perfect. My impression was one of very slight front-focus there, since the camera was focusing in front of high-contrast objects further out. This is purely subjective of course, and I didn't set out specifically to test this aspect. The close range and medium range (across the street) focus worked quickly and well.

Edmund
« Last Edit: October 20, 2010, 08:22:06 am by eronald »
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