Coating Matte Papers with Timeless

[Light Seeker]

I picked up cans of Timeless in matte, satin and gloss to evaluate for coating Canvas prints. However, Breathing Color suggests that Timeless will work well on matte papers, so I gave it a try. I have a customer who would like to display matte prints in a frame without glass. I'd like to to do the same.

I made a print on Canson BFK Rives and coated the print using a roller. Indeed, the surface remains very matte. Timeless matte does not add any sheen, which is nice to see. However, it reduced the Dmax and saturation. The print looks a bit "dull" compared to an uncoated print.

Next, I tried coating the same image using Timeless Satin. The Dmax and saturation are back, although I've lost some shadow detail. Perhaps building a profile using a laminated print would address this. However, there is now too much sheen, given the original objective, and the paper texture has become very prominent.

I am wondering if a mixing some gloss with the matte would bring back the Dmax and saturation, while keeping the sheen to a minimum. It's easy enough to try, but can anyone suggest a good mix to start with?

Terry.

[wildstork]

Agree and disagree with you there, Terry. 
I first made prints of the same image with Moab Entrada Natural White and BC's Optica One paper to see if Optica One had a better dmax.  Optica One was clearly superior to the Moab paper, though I found the paper base far too white for my liking (oba's are probably the culprit here).  I then sprayed both with Timeless Matte using a HVLP sprayer set to a very fine mist and coated both prints halfway (the other half of the print was covered).  On both prints the Timeless varnish created a sheen and killed the matte appearance.   Oddly enough, there was one oblique angle of viewing that made the coated area appear to have a better dmax than the uncoated area but this was at a 45-60 degree angle.  Observed straight on the coated area definitely exhibited a sheen.  I also experienced a serious loss in dmax with Timeless as it reduced the Optica One print to something indistinguishable from the Moab print.  One point I need to make here is that the print I coated had a lot of black in it.  I purposely chose this print as black will reveal the shortcomings of any topcoat spray better than any other color.  In lighter areas of the print the sheen was not as noticeable.

I then tried spraying it on thicker and the result was even more sheen, changing the matte surface to a satin surface.  I called BC and talked at length with the salesman who had urged me to try Timeless. He felt that I might have received a bad batch of Timeless... possibly a container that was taken from a big drum that was not properly mixed.  I then sent him my coated samples and several uncoated sheets so he could repeat the test.  His results were identical to mine, which came as a surprise to him as well. 

In short, I think the product falls short of what it is advertised to do, that being "displaying a cotton rag print without glazing."  To me, the beauty of cotton rag papers lie in the tactile appearance of the paper.  Glass or plexi diminishes this, so an ideal coating would be one that preserves the look of an uncoated paper yet affords protection.  The Timeless varnish basically changed the matte surface of my print to one very similar to a luster-type RC paper.  I personally won't be using Timeless as it didn't live up to it's claims and it costs 2x as much as BC's Glamour 2 varnish when you consider tha t Glamour 2 can be cut 50% with water.  Timeiess has to be used full strength.

I wish I could advise you on a better mixture, but given the sheen I experienced with just the matte... there's no way that mixing satin or gloss will accomplishing anything but add more sheen.

Lawrence

[Ernst Dinkla]

The only way to get 'some' protection and keep the original surface quality is by using thinned gloss varnishes, evenly sprayed and totally absorbed by the coating. Both with water dispersions or solvent based. That is my experience so far. Matte or satin varnishes have a matting agent aboard that will influence the surface quality whether sprayed thin or heavy.

With canvas varnishing I always use gloss varnish to build the skin and after that I apply a thin satin layer to take away the reflectance. That gives the best optical quality for the image. Thick layers of satin or matte will diffuse the image.


met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla

Dinkla Gallery Canvas Wrap Actions for Photoshop
http://www.pigment-print.com/dinklacanvaswraps/index.html

[NikoJorj]

Matte or satin varnishes have a matting agent aboard that will influence the surface quality whether sprayed thin or heavy.

FWIW, I tried the Hahnemuhle spray on Hannemuhle German Etching ; the surface change was barely noticeable, with a very subtle change to tonalities and no distinguishable change of texture to my untrained eye (OTOH, on a semi-glossy paper like Ilford Gold Fibre Silk, the spray did add some gloss - and was quite trickier to apply).
It still seems to give an efficient fading protection, according to samples in test by AardenburgI&A.

[Light Seeker]

On both prints the Timeless varnish created a sheen and killed the matte appearance.   Oddly enough, there was one oblique angle of viewing that made the coated area appear to have a better dmax than the uncoated area but this was at a 45-60 degree angle.  Observed straight on the coated area definitely exhibited a sheen.  I also experienced a serious loss in dmax with Timeless as it reduced the Optica One print to something indistinguishable from the Moab print.  One point I need to make here is that the print I coated had a lot of black in it.  I purposely chose this print as black will reveal the shortcomings of any topcoat spray better than any other color.  In lighter areas of the print the sheen was not as noticeable.

That's interesting Lawrence. I took another look at the print I coated. Indeed, I can see a very slight sheen, but only when I rotate the print to just the right angle. It's quite subtle. Viewed directly (e.g. 90 degree / perpendicular), I do not see any sheen at all. This in not what you were describing, is it?

The print is a wedding shot that includes the bouquet (very vivid), white dress, large areas of black / gray and the couples hands.

The only way to get 'some' protection and keep the original surface quality is by using thinned gloss varnishes, evenly sprayed and totally absorbed by the coating. Both with water dispersions or solvent based. That is my experience so far. Matte or satin varnishes have a matting agent aboard that will influence the surface quality whether sprayed thin or heavy.

With canvas varnishing I always use gloss varnish to build the skin and after that I apply a thin satin layer to take away the reflectance. That gives the best optical quality for the image. Thick layers of satin or matte will diffuse the image.

Thanks for the suggestion Ernst. I have laid down matte coats first, then finished with gloss, but I have never done the opposite. Any reason I can't achieve similar results using a roller and appropriate thinning? I am not setup to spray.

Terry.

[Ernst Dinkla]

 I have laid down matte coats first, then finished with gloss, but I have never done the opposite. Any reason I can't achieve similar results using a roller and appropriate thinning? I am not setup to spray.

Terry.

It is the same with a roller, it will however be difficult to keep the satin layer thin and even with a roller.


met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla

spectral plots of +100 inkjet papers:
http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm

[Light Seeker]

. . . it will however be difficult to keep the satin layer thin and even with a roller.

Perhaps I'll experiment first on a smooth matte paper.

Thanks - Terry.

[wildstork]

Terry,
I was seeing significant sheen when viewed directly.  If I recall correctly BC advises laying it on thick.  I tried spraying Timeless thick as well as thin and thin looked much better to my eye.  Water based varnishes tend to get milky the heavier they're applied.

I was also told, as Ernst stated, that one could apply gloss coats first, followed by satin or matte and the final coat would determine the look.  This makes perfect sense... though the thicker any water based coating is applied to a cotton rag paper,the more it will change the paper into something visually unrelated to a cotton rag paper. 

My current feeling is that if you want the look of a cotton rag paper, frame it with glass or plexi, normal or non glare.  This will preserve the look of the cotton rag fibers in the paper.  If you want something coated (and I'm not speaking of canvas here) go with a luster type paper with a better dmax and use a solvent based coating.  Water based coatings change the cotton rag look to a luster look anyways and you're compromising your color and dmax by starting with a cotton rag paper to begin with.  I'm willing to suffer that minimal loss of dmax and color with cotton rag papers so I'll just avoid coating these papers as you can't apply any coating thick to afford any significant protection short of using glass or plexi. 
Lawrence

[Light Seeker]

Lawrence. . .  I'll have another set of critical eyes take a look at that coated print later today, just to be sure. I had applied one coat of mat finish with a soaked roller.

Is there a roll on solvent that you can suggest?

In the interim, I'm going to experiment with Timeless on my fiber based Baryta papers. I'm hoping that a coat (or two) of Satin will do the trick.

Terry.

[wildstork]

Hi Terry,
The Premier Imaging product (http://premierart.info/product_db.php?product_id=1) is available in aerosol cans or five liter containers.  Applying it with a roller would tend to put more material on a print and could act as a magnet for any airborne dust.  The larger the print the more difficult it will be for roller application.  The challenge with rollers is applying the coating with no lines between successive coats. 

With the aerosol can application I've had success with small prints but very uneven results on large prints (36x54"), especially if there are large areas of black.  Once again, darker values will show the unevenness in the coating long before they're noticeable in lighter areas. 

I've only used the aerosol cans on my portfolio prints made on cotton rag paper so I can't offer any advice on roller applied applications.  I personally had little success with spraying larger prints that were dark... so I don't use anything on large cotton rag prints.  Keep in mind this stuff is very nasty smelling so you need to be wearing a full face mask when applying.  Make sure you have adequate ventilation as well.

I bought the aerosol cans from ITSupplies.

Best of luck with your search.
Lawrence