Arca Swiss RM3d vs Alpa

[Jim2]

I'm considering (with great reluctance to part with my $$$) getting either one of the above in conjunction with a Phase back. Would appreciate inputs from those who use either/both as to why you like/dislike it.

I have recently had a chance to touch and to some extent play with the Alpa gear (the TC and Max) and saw Mark Dubovoy's SWA, along with several lenses and the tilt adapter.

I have only known the rm3d from reading online so far, and I think that it is more compact than Alpa with the benefit of built in tilt (whilst remaining compact), and I am intrigued by the zoom mechanism that seems to be very precise. Also from reading, I like the idea of the 'shimming' method that Rm3d uses - from my understanding, you just need to remember the 'offset' on the focusing ring from the ground glass vs MFDB so it requires no special shimming on the back's mounting plate. Correct me if I'm wrong. I think this is more flexible than the fixed shim on alpa but I'm not sure as to its practicality or accuracy.

Also I don't really know the purpose of the 'bellows' that can be fitted in front of the lens for rm3d.

Thanks for the info.

[Mr. Rib]

I don't own neither of the systems yet, but I've been there - Alpa vs Arca. Thus I'll point out few facts just in case you missed something:

- if you are cost-aware, you have to keep in mind that Alpa lenses (rodenstocks, schneiders with alpa mounting plates) are significantly more expensive than Arca's. It's a bit unjustifiable, or maybe it is - simply marketing reasons and making money justifies everything

- Alpa has no tilt and the additional tilt you get works of course as an extension tube. People can market it 'hey, look, our tilt adapter is so cool that it actually works as an extension tube' but it isn't all that cool when you consider shooting architecture and got to get a 23mm just to make sure you are wide enough and can use tilt if you need it..

- arca rm3d can be used as a front standard of arca M line 2. Furthermore, the lenses which you mount on RM3d have special rings which you can unmount and use the same lens with different adapter ring on your M line 2. If you want a versatile system, (architecture/landscapes AND studio/product) Arca really is the way to go- you can use your lenses on both 'pancake' (RM3D) and view camera (M Line 2) without a hassle.

- I'm not sure which bellows are you talking about but it's probably simply a lens hood
http://www.arca-shop.de/Camera-Accessories/Compendium+Filter-holders/Compendium:::114_104_81.html

- Keep in mind that Sinar made a move as well and now you can mount any back on their arTec camera. It features some interesting possibilities like simultaneous use of tilt AND swing (neither Arca nor RM3D offers it, you have to rotate the camera and mount it on the side to have swing, but you obviously lose tilt option this way).

I guess everyone will agree that both systems are tremendous, it's just that Arca seems to offer a bit more for a bit less money.
I'm not sure you'll find any of this beneficial, but I may save you some searching.

[tho_mas]

a few more notes...:
Rm3D/(i) also offers a sliding back (Alpa does not).
The core element of the arTec is the integrated sliding back... i.e. the rear standard is a built in sliding back.
The arTec in fact offers tilt&swing, however also Cambo offers (almost all) lenses in a Tilt/Swing lens panel.
The arTec does not offer Contax mount (so you can't mount any back) and it is also limited to Rodenstock lenses.

here's a nice review of the Rm3D: http://christopherbarrett.net/blog/?p=1350

[JoeKitchen]

Also, I believe that the lens panel in the arTec moves for one of the movements (I think rise/fall).  Whereas with the RM3D(i) only the back moves, much better for perspective control and stitching.  The Alpa doe this too, only you need to buy an adapter that probably cost an arm and half your leg. 

[David Klepacki]

We currently use the Rm3d and find the in-body helicoid mechanism to be more capable than a system that uses shims.  Previously, we were using Sinar gear, which uses shims.  Shims must be used in discrete multiples of their individual thickness, typically with the smallest thickness being about 0.01mm.  Shims cannot practically address fine adjustments to variations in lens characteristics, which would imply re-shimming the back when any such adjustment is desired.  In contrast, the Rm3d helicoid mechanism can be used continuously with an accuracy of about 0.007mm, and can easily address fine lens adjustments that may be needed by simply adjusting the helicoid setting.

[schaubild]

....  In contrast, the Rm3d helicoid mechanism can be used continuously with an accuracy of about 0.007mm, and can easily address fine lens adjustments that may be needed by simply adjusting the helicoid setting.

Every time I read about your Arca-France the camera seems to become more precise. If they were able to repeatedly position within these tolerances they'd have NASA in the house. Everybody who ever had this camera in his hands can check that the smooth operation is bought with quite some amount of grease in the helicoid. This alone guarantees that the claimed tolerances are not achievable.
So please do some reality check before spreading marketing bubbles, even if you're such a strong believer.

 
 

[JonathanBenoit]

Every time I read about your Arca-France the camera seems to become more precise. If they were able to repeatedly position within these tolerances they'd have NASA in the house. Everybody who ever had this camera in his hands can check that the smooth operation is bought with quite some amount of grease in the helicoid. This alone guarantees that the claimed tolerances are not achievable.
So please do some reality check before spreading marketing bubbles, even if you're such a strong believer.

 
 

You just did the same thing. Supporting info/tests would be nice.

[JoeKitchen]

Every time I read about your Arca-France the camera seems to become more precise. If they were able to repeatedly position within these tolerances they'd have NASA in the house. Everybody who ever had this camera in his hands can check that the smooth operation is bought with quite some amount of grease in the helicoid. This alone guarantees that the claimed tolerances are not achievable.
So please do some reality check before spreading marketing bubbles, even if you're such a strong believer.

 
 

I have to disagree with this.  Have you ever heard of a tool called a micrometer?  That little simple machine holds its tolerances without NASA's help.  The helical mount in nothing more then a wide screw and bolt with a hole in the middle of it.  And considering it take 4 full rotations to go from start to end, having that much tolerance is not that much of an issue.  Also, this is not a high performance motor, but a hand driven device made to go really slow in comparison to a car, so keeping the machine greased should not be an issue.  (FYI, axel grease for most cars last at least 10 years before it needs to be replaced.) 

[David Klepacki]

Every time I read about your Arca-France the camera seems to become more precise. If they were able to repeatedly position within these tolerances they'd have NASA in the house. Everybody who ever had this camera in his hands can check that the smooth operation is bought with quite some amount of grease in the helicoid. This alone guarantees that the claimed tolerances are not achievable.
So please do some reality check before spreading marketing bubbles, even if you're such a strong believer.

 
 

Why do you say this?  I have never claimed anything more or less precise than this.  If you did some checking yourself, you would find this to be true.

And from your comment about "marketing bubbles", it is obvious that you are simply ignorant of how the Rm3d actually works, so I will try to educate you.  One rotation of the Arca-Swiss helicoid moves the lens linearly by 2.41mm.  This is a fact that can be verified by measurement.  The helicoid is indexed from 0 to 344 around its perimeter.  So, the individual index spacing on the helicoid corresponds to a linear travel distance of 2.41mm / 344 = 0.007mm.   Therefore, it is trivial to repeatedly achieve such fine movements just by turning the helicoid between its index marks.  It has nothing to do with "marketing" or "believing" or NASA.  It is a verifiable fact.

[PaulSchneider]

Schaubild, I get the impression that you're working for Alpa, or am I wrong? It would be nice of you to disclose your business provenance when commenting pro/con Alpa discussions ... just like all other product representatives on this forum.

Everytime some kind of criticism is uttered with regard to the Alpa camera you jump to its defense with a mocking tone. Also you seem to be very well informed about Alpa products and have a German username.

Otherwise people trying to decide which product to buy might think you're an experienced photographer weighing in with his trusteable opinion ...

Either that or you must be a strong believer too ... in which case I must apologize!

In the end, I sincerely believe that all tech camera systems - yes, there apparently even exist satisfied Cambo shooters out there who creat sharp pictures - produce excellent imagery and nothing beats first-hand trial.

I for my part find the Alpa a very nicely machined product with excellent aesthetics. The most striking difference (of course there are others such as innovation and exhaustiveness) between it and other manufacturers though is in my view its excellent marketing, akin to what Hassy is doing nowadays. They have a beautiful web-presence, great product-placement with known shooters (Mark Dubovoy being a powerful ambassador) and a coherent "premium pricing equals superiority" marketing strategy. Everybody with a little knowledge in business adminstration knows that this is one good way to promote a niche product. It's just that some people believe it when you repeatedly say that something is the best. It's simple as that.

Arca, Cambo and Sinar lack this kind of clear-cut marketing strategy and in my view this is a huge mistake and is probably reflected in market share.

So, Jim, best advice would be to try every tech camera by yourself, maybe lend it for one day, and then decide. Arca is a beautiful camera too and they all are priced in the upper segment, which is completely okay, since we're talking about the highest-end photographic gear on the market. Arca has a proven track-record of excellence in the photography world, their cube-head is world-renown and a must-have accessory for all tech-camera shooters. With their focusing mechanism they've shown quite a bit of innovation and I'm completely confident that you'd be able to create razor-sharp imagery with it.

On the other hand, what's nice about Alpa is that they seem to me the most innovative tech camera manufacturer out there. They really showed off some innovative things at Photokina. In my view this is also an important deciding factor - .i.e. which company has the most innovation going on ... since you're basically buying yourself into a closed system with a lot of follow-up costs in terms of accessories and proprietarily mounted - and priced - lenses this is not a small thing to consider ... and they have this modular philosophy which is quite nice if you start owning different camera bodies. The TC is quite sexy and a perfect complement to a Max and that Iphone holder sure is a novel way of doing the viewfinder thing ...

In Summary: It's just that no product will be 1000x better than the other, there are just different feature sets with different prices and feels.

@Jim: Choose your poison. Your bank account will suffer one way or the other  

Kind regards

Paul

@update: Schaubild just contacted me and told me he had no direct affiliation with Alpa. I believe him and reiterate my apology and that the sense of my post was to discuss the fact that those tech camera discussions are always laden with quasi religious pro/con posts and that nothing beats first hand experience and that both systems are adequate for excellent imagery. Alpa and Arca are both great but there's no reason to denigrate the one or the other!

[Jim2]

We currently use the Rm3d and find the in-body helicoid mechanism to be more capable than a system that uses shims.  Previously, we were using Sinar gear, which uses shims.  Shims must be used in discrete multiples of their individual thickness, typically with the smallest thickness being about 0.01mm.  Shims cannot practically address fine adjustments to variations in lens characteristics, which would imply re-shimming the back when any such adjustment is desired.  In contrast, the Rm3d helicoid mechanism can be used continuously with an accuracy of about 0.007mm, and can easily address fine lens adjustments that may be needed by simply adjusting the helicoid setting.

This is exactly what I'm thinking as well. Thanks for confirming it. Also it seems that rm3d is far more compact when taking into consideration the whole gear to pack (body + lenses) compared to alpa but never having seen the rm3d myself, I can't be sure yet.

Where can I find a list of shops in USA that sell / stock the rm3di and phase backs? I live in Australia but I'll be going to USA in mid July to hopefully pick up the gear. Yeah it's still a while yet but it's good to do research in advance. I would prefer west coast location e.g. LA, Seattle, but if I have to, I can go to Phoenix (I think I saw someone on this forum who owns a shop in Phoenix?). Sorry I'm not familiar with the who's who around here.

[Jim2]

Everybody who ever had this camera in his hands can check that the smooth operation is bought with quite some amount of grease in the helicoid. This alone guarantees that the claimed tolerances are not achievable.

Do you mean that the grease 'fills up' the space inbetween the threads, and therefore there could be some play / movements to squish the grease to either direction?

================

A separate question: can the lenses on rm3di be used on Mline or other full movement arca technical cameras (sorry not familiar with arca range)?

[archivue]

A separate question: can the lenses on rm3di be used on Mline or other full movement arca technical cameras (sorry not familiar with arca range)?

yes, you can buy a special Arca 110 lensboard adapter to mount the R lenses on an arca !


and even on a sinar...



with the new RM3D(i) you can turn the front to use tilt or swing.

[David Klepacki]

This is exactly what I'm thinking as well. Thanks for confirming it. Also it seems that rm3d is far more compact when taking into consideration the whole gear to pack (body + lenses) compared to alpa but never having seen the rm3d myself, I can't be sure yet.

Where can I find a list of shops in USA that sell / stock the rm3di and phase backs? I live in Australia but I'll be going to USA in mid July to hopefully pick up the gear. Yeah it's still a while yet but it's good to do research in advance. I would prefer west coast location e.g. LA, Seattle, but if I have to, I can go to Phoenix (I think I saw someone on this forum who owns a shop in Phoenix?). Sorry I'm not familiar with the who's who around here.

Jim, I do not know of any shop in the USA that actually stocks the rm3d.  I placed an order for mine through Rod Klukas (Photomark in Phoenix, AZ) who is a member of this forum.  Rod is an experienced photographer who also personally owns and uses the rm3d system.  He was extremely helpful and I can recommend him highly.  It took several weeks for my rm3d to be delivered to me.  The delivery time is variable of course and depends on the number of outstanding orders that Arca-Swiss must fill at the time, any possible customs/transit delays, etc.  My unit was actually delayed because a volcano in Iceland had erupted earlier this year and temporarily prevented aircraft from flying out of Europe.

You pose a further challenge of finding a dealer in the USA who sells both Arca-Swiss and Phase One.  The only dealer that I am aware who can do this is Capture Integration, but they are on the east coast (Miami and Atlanta).  Steve Hendrix from Capture Integration is also a member of this forum and may also be able to help you. 

Another possibility .... I believe there is a Phase One PODAS workshop in Australia coming up in early December of this year.  It may be possible for them to bring a rm3di+Phase Back to Australia for you to see and purchase on the spot.  You may want to contact them about this possibility.

[David Klepacki]

This is exactly what I'm thinking as well. Thanks for confirming it. Also it seems that rm3d is far more compact when taking into consideration the whole gear to pack (body + lenses) compared to alpa but never having seen the rm3d myself, I can't be sure yet.

Jim, as much as I personally enjoy the rm3d, in all fairness the rm3d is not more compact than an equivalent alpa kit.  The main aspects of the rm3d that differentiate it from other technical cameras are really the in-body helicoid and the in-body lens movements (tilt/swing) that can be used for all lenses, including ultra-wide focal lengths.

The most compact R camera is the new rm2d.  This model has rear shifts (geared vertical, non-geared horizontal) but no lens movements.  So, if you value compactness over any lens tilt/swing, then you might want to look at the rm2d.

[Jim2]

Jim, as much as I personally enjoy the rm3d, in all fairness the rm3d is not more compact than an equivalent alpa kit.  The main aspects of the rm3d that differentiate it from other technical cameras are really the in-body helicoid and the in-body lens movements (tilt/swing) that can be used for all lenses, including ultra-wide focal lengths.

The most compact R camera is the new rm2d.  This model has rear shifts (geared vertical, non-geared horizontal) but no lens movements.  So, if you value compactness over any lens tilt/swing, then you might want to look at the rm2d.

I'd love to play with the tilt so I guess that means rm3d. Don't you think you save a lot in compactness and weight because rm3d's lenses are far lighter and smaller than alpa's since each one of alpa's lenses have built in focusing mechanism

[David Klepacki]

I'd love to play with the tilt so I guess that means rm3d. Don't you think you save a lot in compactness and weight because rm3d's lenses are far lighter and smaller than alpa's since each one of alpa's lenses have built in focusing mechanism

Yes, there is a difference, but I would not consider it a huge savings.  For example, I have the Rodenstock Digaron-S 35mm lens, and it weighs in just under 600g including the spacer ring that is required when not using the Rotaslide sliding back.  Alpa advertises this same lens at 656g, which is not that much heavier.  The length is also the same, since the flange focal length distance is a property of the lens, independent of whether there is a focusing helicoid on the lens or not.  The mounting widths are different in shape, since the alpa uses a square mount, while the rm3d uses a round mount, but still pretty close in size.  So, overall I would really not argue that one system is more or less compact than the other.

[Jeffreytotaro]

Hi Jim:

I use Alpa (MAX and SWA) and really like the system.  I don't want the sliding back option, nor the tilt that Arca offers.  I do however really like the focus/mount system they Arca have come up with.  It saves on buying a helical for each lens, and saves some weight as well.  I haven't used the system to know how well it operates.  If you have a chance to go the up coming Photo Expo in NY you can likely see both.  FotoCare will have the Alpas to see.  The only way to know is to handle each camera and shoot with it. Change the lenses, try getting into perfect focus, set it up from how you might store it in a case, anything you can think of to get a good feel for it.

One other big consideration.  When I owned an Arca 6x9 F Metric I found the camera great, but the delivery of the camera and accessories to be very painful.  I hope that they have improved on this.  Alpa suffers also from some supply problems from their suppliers, but they are very honest about whats going on and when to realistically expect delivery.  They even answer emails on Sundays.

I would have strongly considered the Arca if it were available when I got my system.

One other thing to consider is that if you can get both systems side by side, with the same lens and back, try shooting in high contrast situations to evaluate how each camera (camera body, not lens) handles veiling flare.  This is how well the interior of the camera stops internal reflections resulting in lower contrast images.  There was a huge difference between the Cambo I used to use and the Alpas.

In the end its how you feel about each.  Each have their strengths, and few weaknesses if any.

[tho_mas]

One other thing to consider is that if you can get both systems side by side, with the same lens and back, try shooting in high contrast situations to evaluate how each camera (camera body, not lens) handles veiling flare.  This is how well the interior of the camera stops internal reflections resulting in lower contrast images.  There was a huge difference between the Cambo I used to use and the Alpas.

Interesting point!
With the 47XL I never have issues on my Wide RS (apparetnly it's the same with the 43XL) but the 70HR is extremely prone to lose contrast.
When I use a large lens shade and adjust it carefully things look really good… this is why I always thought it's simply the lens that suffers from flare. But maybe it's also related to the (relatively) long barrel the 70mm lens is mounted on. So maybe I should try to attach black velvet inside the lens barrel or so… ?
Thanks for bringing this up!

[wolfnowl]

While not equivalent to handling one, Optechs Digital of Seattle has a series of YouTube videos on different aspects of the Alpa cameras.  You can see them here: http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=OptechsDigital  I know Michael did a video on the Arca, but I don't know of any others.

Mike.