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Author Topic: Thinking about mf  (Read 4925 times)

natas

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Thinking about mf
« on: October 10, 2010, 05:31:30 pm »

Hey guys,

I have been doing a lot of landscape shooting the past 5 years. I started with a 5d and later got a 5d mkii. I make about 75% of my money on portraits and weddings and 25% on landscape shots.

My big issue has been with really large prints. I was in Colorado last week shooting fall colors. The pictures at normal resolution look good but you zoom and see the trees lack detail. This really becomes a problem when printing 24 inches or larger

I do not plan to get rid of my canon system. However i want something that can get me the detail I want. One option I was thinking was to buy a extra 5d mkii and getting the aa filter removed. How much would this help? Would it be better for me to just buck up and get a 30-40mp medium format camera? I wish i could find some comparisons of the 5d mkii with and without aa filter on a good landscape scene with tons of detail.

My budget is around 15k if i were to do this. I have plenty of good glass on the canon system so those who say to invest in good glass i already am
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nightfire

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Re: Thinking about mf
« Reply #1 on: October 10, 2010, 05:59:15 pm »

Have you considered stitching?
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natas

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Re: Thinking about mf
« Reply #2 on: October 10, 2010, 06:13:00 pm »

Yes and I have done it many times. It makes things better, but still not what I want. Plus it's a huge pain when trees move or if water is involved. Stitching to me is more of a hack. I like the idea and it works under certain situations, but not all.
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natas

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Re: Thinking about mf
« Reply #3 on: October 10, 2010, 06:36:14 pm »

I have no idea if it will increase my sales. Many times I have printed smaller because the larger print was not in my eyes good enough. The idea to go medium format is the perfectionist in me.
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Gary Yeowell

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Re: Thinking about mf
« Reply #4 on: October 10, 2010, 07:05:26 pm »

Use a 6x7 film camera for the landscape prints. I have owned a 1DS3 since its introduction but pick up a film camera every time for prints and stuff i really care about.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2010, 07:11:09 pm by Gary Yeowell »
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eronald

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Re: Thinking about mf
« Reply #5 on: October 10, 2010, 08:56:08 pm »

Yours might be one of the rare cases (Landscape + Portrait) where a Hassy or a Leica S2 might be justified. A new possibility is the Pentax 645D.

Frankly, I don't think that investing in MF makes sense on a financial basis - I would first go and buy Genuine Fractals, and play around with better printing technique. I'd say one can improve by about one camera class of detail that one can coax out of a print if the color management is right, and the paper/raster combo is well chosen.  Of course, MF provides a better starting point, but at the price of a large investment and cumbersome workflow.

BTW, you might try a Zeiss lens on the 5D; Bernard swears by Zeiss, and also you can MF those lenses with Liveview; some Canon lenses are very sharp eg. 85/1.2 but are designed in such a way that accurate focus near infinity is totally impossible.

Another thing to investigate is a better Raw converter; if you are shooting Canon you might be surprised at how much detail Canon's free DPP program can get out of a file, especially if you switch on its remarkable sharpening. Photoshop too has a built in deconvolution sharpening algorithm.

I'm not saying the 5DII is ideal - in fact I dislike it. But it can definitely make decent mid-size prints; 24" counts as barely mid-sized on this forum (I'm not joking).

Edmund
« Last Edit: October 10, 2010, 09:04:04 pm by eronald »
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natas

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Re: Thinking about mf
« Reply #6 on: October 10, 2010, 11:24:44 pm »

Thanks for the suggestions. I do have fractals and it helps a good deal with sharpness. I think I will see what the pentax does by renting one. Heck I may even mess around with film a little.
I
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Thinking about mf
« Reply #7 on: October 11, 2010, 12:32:41 am »

Hi,

Good advice from Edmund. I'd just add a couple of comments.

1) Doubling the number of megapixels would allow you to make 40% larger prints.

2) You could try printing from Lightroom or QImage. Lightroom has a very sophisticated pipeline with capture sharpening, uprezzing and sharpening for output. Camera Raw in PS has the same capture sharpening as Lightroom but lacks output sharpening capacity. Regarding ACR/Lightroom sharpening try with "Detail" set to 100%, a small radius (0.5 - 0.8) and a moderate amount (like 40), and add some noise reduction.

3) Make sure that your present equipment works optimally. Are you using Live View for focus? Have you calibrated your autofocus?
Its very easy to loose sharpness, unless technique is perfect. That of course applies even more to MF.

No doubt, MF-digital is much sharper than DSLRs like Canon and Nikon, at least if the equipment works perfectly.

Regarding the option to use film with MF, I'm highly skeptical. I have done some tests using my old Pentax 67 and Velvia and even if I found that the Pentax may have a small resolution advantage on high contrast detail I have the impression that image quality of a 24 MP DSLR is simply better. The other issue is that you either need to scan it on a drum scanner or getting a really good film scanner. Depending on where you live, turnaround time can be very long.

For my test I made something like two exposures on digital, but used at least three rolls of film. Turnaround time was like over a week. My professional lab now only processes one or two batches of film each week. Having fast feedback is one of the great advantages with digital.

That said, some very good photographers love film and prefer it to digital.

http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/index.php/photoarticles/16-pentax67velvia-vs-sony-alpha-900

http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/index.php/photoarticles/38-observations-on-leica-s2-raw-images

http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/index.php/photoarticles/41-phase-one-images-for-download

Phase One has a couple of comparison images available for download. They have a comparison between 1DsIII and the P65+, P65+ wins. You may try to download the images from Phase One and try out. Capture One is needed to read them.

Best regards
Erik


Yours might be one of the rare cases (Landscape + Portrait) where a Hassy or a Leica S2 might be justified. A new possibility is the Pentax 645D.

Frankly, I don't think that investing in MF makes sense on a financial basis - I would first go and buy Genuine Fractals, and play around with better printing technique. I'd say one can improve by about one camera class of detail that one can coax out of a print if the color management is right, and the paper/raster combo is well chosen.  Of course, MF provides a better starting point, but at the price of a large investment and cumbersome workflow.

BTW, you might try a Zeiss lens on the 5D; Bernard swears by Zeiss, and also you can MF those lenses with Liveview; some Canon lenses are very sharp eg. 85/1.2 but are designed in such a way that accurate focus near infinity is totally impossible.

Another thing to investigate is a better Raw converter; if you are shooting Canon you might be surprised at how much detail Canon's free DPP program can get out of a file, especially if you switch on its remarkable sharpening. Photoshop too has a built in deconvolution sharpening algorithm.

I'm not saying the 5DII is ideal - in fact I dislike it. But it can definitely make decent mid-size prints; 24" counts as barely mid-sized on this forum (I'm not joking).

Edmund
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Graham Mitchell

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Re: Thinking about mf
« Reply #8 on: October 11, 2010, 03:15:14 am »

Medium format digital can definitely improve things for you but the problem is that your budget limits the options which would really make a difference. There's not much point in spending all that money for a marginal increase in resolution from a 22MP digital back with no AA filter, for example. The best backs for really large prints would be the Phase One P65+ (60 MP), the new Leaf Aptus-II 12 (80 MP) or the Seitz 6x17 Digital (160 MP). (The Seitz option is a complete camera with a built in line scanner which takes 1 second per pass, I believe, and uses view camera lenses. So not for photos with fast moving action but still fine for slow moving trees or waves and definitely the king of the hill when it comes to pixels-per-buck as it is the cheapest of the 3.) It might also be worth mentioning that the best landscape lenses are those made for view cameras, so even if you got a Phase or Leaf back you might want to look into the various view camera options.
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natas

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Re: Thinking about mf
« Reply #9 on: October 11, 2010, 09:34:53 am »

ErikKaffehr:

Thanks for all the suggestions. I print from PS CS5 and Imagenest. Before printing I apply output sharpening using Nik Sharpener pro. I actually just started doing this and it really does seem to help. I used Qimage before I converted over to a mac. Since the conversion I stopped using it because I really hate booting into Windows or using Fusion....takes to much extra time.

The comparison links you sent me are very interesting.

One thing I have not done is use live view for focusing. Why? Because I have been an idiot and never thought to do so. I forgot my 5D MKII even had that option. Yes I know it does video as well, but I have never even tried that.

I want to thank everyone again for all the ideas and tips.  The landscape thing I have always done for myself, it is the reason I got into photography years ago. I never intended to make money off of it, but people started visiting my house for portraits and started commenting on my landscape work. I sold my first landscape shot a little over a year ago to a client that came over to pick up portrait prints. She saw a picture I took hanging on the wall and said she had to have this for her living room.
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Doug Peterson

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Re: Thinking about mf
« Reply #10 on: October 11, 2010, 09:44:23 am »

P45 (non plus) on a tech camera with one or two lenses would be a great place to start your research.

Take from this forum lots of good advice from lots of points of view, but if you want my advice: listen to it, consider it, but then go take some pictures using the system(s) you are considering.


Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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BlasR

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Re: Thinking about mf
« Reply #11 on: October 11, 2010, 01:43:29 pm »

Go with Hasselblad, $15,000 dollars today will be $1,500.00 tomorrow.

A list you have the camera in you can sale it for $2,000.00 so already you I save you $500.00

Get one of those the people are don't want it anymore, its someone problem you getting, but a list, will not cost you the much
Phase one is good, but good luck to you, if you have problems and you didn't get from Florida or Georgia.
MY experience, with p45+ great back, but then you have to get a camera lens and so on.  GET HASSELBLAD.  Please keep it as a secret
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Doug Peterson

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Re: Thinking about mf
« Reply #12 on: October 11, 2010, 01:59:41 pm »

Go with Hasselblad, $15,000 dollars today will be $1,500.00 tomorrow.

Or $15,000 today will be $13,500 in 18 months.

 :D

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JV

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Re: Thinking about mf
« Reply #13 on: October 11, 2010, 03:21:00 pm »

Or $15,000 today will be $13,500 in 18 months.

Not really, if you eg. buy a $14K P30+ back today its resell value 18 months from now will be approximately 40% of its initial cost.
That's the brutal reality.  Apologies if that does not fit in with the sales pitch...
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Joe Behar

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Re: Thinking about mf
« Reply #14 on: October 11, 2010, 03:36:06 pm »

Not really, if you eg. buy a $14K P30+ back today its resell value 18 months from now will be approximately 40% of its initial cost.
That's the brutal reality.  Apologies if that does not fit in with the sales pitch...

Phase One guarantees that if they introduce a new back that costs more within 18 months of your purchase, you will get 90% of your original purchase price on an upgrade.

$15,000 today = $13,500 in 18 months.

No smoke & mirrors
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Nick-T

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Re: Thinking about mf
« Reply #15 on: October 11, 2010, 04:25:56 pm »

If 25% of your sales is from landscapes and that's the reason you want a MFDB system, then is spending $15K going to increase sales, what's your expected ROI?

I work with a 5d2 alongside medium format and there is a distinct and irrefutable difference in quality for the sort of work I do. That being said, I think John has it right, where does the MFDB fit into your business plan?

Nick-T
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JV

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Re: Thinking about mf
« Reply #16 on: October 11, 2010, 04:35:34 pm »

Phase One guarantees that if they introduce a new back that costs more within 18 months of your purchase, you will get 90% of your original purchase price on an upgrade.

$15,000 today = $13,500 in 18 months.

No smoke & mirrors

Unless you buy a P65+ and are willing to fund the upgrade to a P85+ (or whatever) within 18 months this "investment program" is of little or no practical value.
And even then, within 18 months you will again face the same decision...
Apologies but saying that MFD gear retains its value is just throwing dust in people's eyes!  All potential buyers should be aware of this.
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Jack Flesher

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Re: Thinking about mf
« Reply #17 on: October 11, 2010, 04:59:26 pm »

Medium format digital can definitely improve things for you but the problem is that your budget limits the options which would really make a difference.

Perfectly stated, and about the most accurate answer you could ask for.
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