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Author Topic: You can't do That with medium format  (Read 120412 times)

Dustbak

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Re: You can't do That with medium format
« Reply #320 on: November 03, 2010, 03:23:20 pm »

Well, I am disappointed. I imagined 'this page' would tell me something about the marvelous attributes of flash units that attach to MFDB systems. Instead, I got a page about the D90. The FX D700 that I use, has a maximum flash sync of 1/320th, at full flash intensity. Not as good as some MFDB systems, I'm sure, but still not bad.

You guys are a bit cagey. I still don't know if these marvelous flash attributes of MFDB relate to portable flash units that attach to the camera. I'm a peripatetic sort of guy. I don't travel around with a truck-load of lighting equipment.

Ray,

Your D700 syncs at 1/320 in normal mode at best. In a lot of cases it will not do better than 180/th and at 1/250th it will already have some darkening due to the shutter blades. We are not talking the kind of darkening like a nice creative vignette but the kind that renders an image unusable.

With the SB900 (and the SB600/SB800 and I am sure the SB700) you can have FP (focal plane) flashing where you can sync up to 1/8000th but this is very limited. You loose a lot of power from the flash but it can be done. Was it Joe McNally that had this whole contraption with many SB900/800's in the dessert?

Yes the 1/800th sync of Hasselblad relates to all sorts of flashes that you can trigger with it. It is not limited to one specific kind.

I have used both and find the Hasselblad much easier and more reliable to use than the DSLR. The batteries of the SB's are a weak link, they tend to go to sleep when you don't need it (even when you turn that off), IR trigger (SU800) is sometimes tricky, using a flash as commander doesn't always work really well, remote triggers are working but not always 100%. Where as the MF works and is much more reliable. This to me is really important.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2010, 03:26:23 pm by Dustbak »
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feppe

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Re: You can't do That with medium format
« Reply #321 on: November 03, 2010, 06:19:10 pm »

That would work in the dark, but, if you need to exclude ambient light, it is best to use two shutter-beams (which can react to sound) one to fire the shutter, and one to fire the flash, or a delay circuit.

...or you can use a three-circuit system, and fire the bullet electronically.

I've never shot bullets with a camera, but I'd recommend using sub-sonic rounds if you rely on sound to trigger the shutter ;)

Ray

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Re: You can't do That with medium format
« Reply #322 on: November 04, 2010, 01:40:01 am »

Not cagey Ray, just read what you have been presented.  It was explained earlier in the thread.

"Sync speed is a big deal when controlling the balance of flash to ambient. For those of us that shoot with flash and for example shoot restaurant interiors full control using high flash sync speeds is important and the higher sync speeds you get using on camera dedicated DSLR flash systems are not very helpful. Usually we will have various flash heads with various shapers hidden/placed around the set."

Flash heads, as in not Nikon Speedlights which you won't find on a professional set of any genre in photography.

Symbolphoto gave you an example as well shot with an MF camera.  Whether you like or dislike the effect is upto you, but it is necessary for a lot of photographers to achieve what they want in an image.





David,
You'll have to pardon my ignorance. I'm just an amateur.

I'm now getting the impression that these flash advantages of the MFDB system, with regard to higher flash intensity at greater shutter speeds, are only applicable to external flash units. Is this correct?

I'm also getting the impression that, for more modest flash requirements, at lower intensity and slower shutter speeds, the 35mm DSLR may still have an advantage because it accepts TTL flash devices like the SB-900 which attach to the camera hot-shoe.

For example, let's say I'm visiting Angkor Wat again, photographing the ruins in bright sunlight. The shadows are very dark, but sometimes there's interesting detail in those shadows; perhaps a little figurine nestled against the root of a tree overgrowing the ruins; or perhaps I just want to bring out the texture of the stone and any moss that might be growing there, in complete shade.

With my D700 and attached SB-900 Speedlight, there'd be no problem. It's true the Speedlight adds another 500gms to the weight of the camera, but that's manageable.

What may not be manageable is setting up a couple of external flash units with reflectors in a crowded area with tourists passing 'to and fro' all the time.

"Sorry folks! Stand back everyone! Professional photographer at work!"

This thread was inspired by the rebuttal in James Martin's article, "You can't do That with Medium Format", which I thought was a bit misleading.

Have I highlighted yet another thing you can't do with Medium Format; walk around with a reasonably good flash unit attached to the camera?
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Ray

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Re: You can't do That with medium format
« Reply #323 on: November 04, 2010, 01:44:35 am »

Ray,

Your D700 syncs at 1/320 in normal mode at best. In a lot of cases it will not do better than 180/th and at 1/250th it will already have some darkening due to the shutter blades. We are not talking the kind of darkening like a nice creative vignette but the kind that renders an image unusable.


Dustbak,
As far as I can tell from the SB-900 manual, you can choose the flash intensity, the distance to the subject, the aperture for appropriate exposure, and the angle of coverage. (As well as many other options).
I imagine that vignetting would take place if the angle of coverage is either not set correctly, or is outside the design limits of the flash unit.

If I buy one of these units, it looks as though I'll have to spend a lot of time reading the manual. Things seem to be getting more and more complicated.
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yaya

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Re: You can't do That with medium format
« Reply #324 on: November 04, 2010, 02:18:52 am »

Ray you'll probably be shocked to hear that most MF cameras nowadays offer a hotshoe!!!!! Some even have a built-in pop-up flash!!!

You can even use the hotshoe to mount a flash unit and with the correct adapter, have TTL function!!!!

For your question, I think lighting those shadows with an off-camera unit (can be an SB-XXX if you want as you can trigger it remotely) will give better control and better results.
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Dustbak

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Re: You can't do That with medium format
« Reply #325 on: November 04, 2010, 03:00:30 am »

Dustbak,
As far as I can tell from the SB-900 manual, you can choose the flash intensity, the distance to the subject, the aperture for appropriate exposure, and the angle of coverage. (As well as many other options).
I imagine that vignetting would take place if the angle of coverage is either not set correctly, or is outside the design limits of the flash unit.

If I buy one of these units, it looks as though I'll have to spend a lot of time reading the manual. Things seem to be getting more and more complicated.

Ray,

You are hitting your shutter blades because your sync limit is actually lower than 1/320th with the D700 in a lot cases. This shows as half a black frame from the bottom upwards.

It seems you are either not reading what I wrote or you have no idea what max sync speed actually is and what happens if you cross it (or where you cross it with the D700). This has nothing to do with the angle of coverage of the flash.



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Ray

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Re: You can't do That with medium format
« Reply #326 on: November 04, 2010, 03:19:06 am »

Ray you'll probably be shocked to hear that most MF cameras nowadays offer a hotshoe!!!!! Some even have a built-in pop-up flash!!!

You can even use the hotshoe to mount a flash unit and with the correct adapter, have TTL function!!!!

For your question, I think lighting those shadows with an off-camera unit (can be an SB-XXX if you want as you can trigger it remotely) will give better control and better results.

I'm not so much shocked as mystified. I did a bit of Google searching to try to find out what flash options are available to attach to DMF cameras, and couldn't find any satisfactory answers. I checked out the Phase One site where there are lots of video tutorials on the Phase 645DF, but the only reference to use of flash related to external units.

During my search, I came across a 'getdpi.com' forum where people were showing off their high-ISO DMF images downsampled to DSLR size, and congratulating themselves that such images were comparable to DSLR output. They seemed to have completely ignored the fact that that at high ISO the MFDB manufacturers tend to exaggerate their ISO ratings by a greater extent than do DSLR manufacturers. The real ISO of the P65+ back at ISO 1600, for example, is very close to the real ISO rating of the D3X at the nominated ISO 800.

Talk about 'fanboyism'!
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Ray

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Re: You can't do That with medium format
« Reply #327 on: November 04, 2010, 03:28:27 am »

Ray,

You are hitting your shutter blades because your sync limit is actually lower than 1/320th with the D700 in a lot cases. This shows as half a black frame from the bottom upwards.

It seems you are either not reading what I wrote or you have no idea what max sync speed actually is and what happens if you cross it (or where you cross it with the D700). This has nothing to do with the angle of coverage of the flash.


I'm reading the D700 (and SB-900) manuals. They tell me that maximum flash sync speed is 1/320th. What problems there might be in using the SB-900 at this flash sync speed of 1/320th are another matter. Regards vignetting, I can only comment from experience with other TTL flash units. There's vignetting if the FL of lens used is outside the specifications of the flash unit, or if the FL range has not been set properly.

This advice at  http://nikonclspracticalguide.blogspot.com/2008/03/10-auto-fp-high-speed-sync-explained.html  is 2 1/2 years old but perhaps still helpful. To quote:

Quote
As I mentioned, a focal plane shutter mechanism moves the curtains at a very precise speed. This speed is determined during manufacturing of the mechanism and is governed mostly by how recently the shutter was designed. In older 35mm cameras, this speed was 1/60th second, but with time, shutters got faster and faster, and in the new D300 this speed is 1/320th sec.


« Last Edit: November 04, 2010, 03:58:46 am by Ray »
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perjorgen

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Re: You can't do That with medium format
« Reply #328 on: November 04, 2010, 04:47:10 am »

I'm not so much shocked as mystified. I did a bit of Google searching to try to find out what flash options are available to attach to DMF cameras, and couldn't find any satisfactory answers. I checked out the Phase One site where there are lots of video tutorials on the Phase 645DF, but the only reference to use of flash related to external units.

A Hasselblad H-series has a few flash options (I'm not sure about the other MFs but I quess they have something similar)
  • built in fill flash with TTL
  • hotshoe where you can mount normal flashes and with the appropiate adapter a TTL flash
  • PC plug where you can mount cord base flashes
All these flashe options syncs to 1/800 - well there is only one case that I know of where you dont have max sync speed and that is when you use slow wireless remote triggers but that is not really the cameras fault.
When using faster sync than the flash duration you don't get the full benefit of the flash power.
You can choose to sync the flash in the beginning or at the end of the exposure, which is very nice when shooting moving objects leaving the ghosting trail behind the object instead of in front.

I have been following this thread and find it very entertaining even though I have difficulties seeing what its actual purpose is. I seems that the OP ask if MF is too expensive, too heavy, and too unflexible to be worth getting and as the thread progresses it appears that the question is more rethorical than actual.
To me it's like asking: Why does anybody wan't to buy a 18 wheel truck - it's heavy, it's very expensive, nobody else buys it, it doesn't run very fast, it's difficult to drive and even more difficult to park?
The best answer I can come up with is a few people needs it's ability to move stuff and a few freaks just like to drive it. I wouldn't recommend it for a sunday drive unless ofcourse you mostly enjoy destroying your environment.

Dick Roadnight

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Re: You can't do That with medium format
« Reply #329 on: November 04, 2010, 04:55:41 am »

A Hasselblad H-series has a few flash options...
All these flashe options syncs to 1/800 - well there is only one case that I know of where you dont have max sync speed and that is when you use slow wireless remote triggers but that is not really the cameras fault.
Can you tell us which wireless remote triggers work well, and give fast sync speeds?

Metz?

Pocket Wizard?

Elinchrome?
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perjorgen

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Re: You can't do That with medium format
« Reply #330 on: November 04, 2010, 05:32:14 am »

Can you tell us which wireless remote triggers work well, and give fast sync speeds?

Metz?

Pocket Wizard?

Elinchrome?

I don't have much experience with wireless flash. But since the challenges you face with high sync speed with focal plane shutters are very different from the ones you have with a leaf shutter, all the fancy sync modes you get with Pocket Wizard will not help you. Elichrom says up to 1/250 on their web site and seems to be designed for focal plane shutters. My best quess would be Profoto air which it is designed for leaf shutters and they say up 1/1500 on their site.

philipmccormick

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Re: You can't do That with medium format
« Reply #331 on: November 04, 2010, 07:25:29 am »

Flash heads, as in not Nikon Speedlights which you won't find on a professional set of any genre in photography.


Em, there are loads of professional photographers who regularly use Nikon/Canon etc speedlites on location, especially in editorial and travel work, using them creatively, often off-camera, often producing powerful and artistic work.
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Rob C

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Re: You can't do That with medium format
« Reply #332 on: November 04, 2010, 07:35:10 am »

It's probably all different now - what the hell isn't? - but even in the days of the 500C and theoretical synch at 1/500 of a sec with its lenses, the received wisdom was to stay down at around 125th and, at a push, a 250th. This was because synch wasn't always that accurate and also because many big bang studio units were only powerful because the flash was a long-duration one; the danger was clipping part of that output via the shutter and, as a result, not getting the exposure your meter told you that you would be getting... maybe Polaroid had value after all.

Rob C

BrendanStewart

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Re: You can't do That with medium format
« Reply #333 on: November 04, 2010, 08:25:10 am »

Can you tell us which wireless remote triggers work well, and give fast sync speeds?

Metz?

Pocket Wizard?

Elinchrome?

Elinchrom works very well. All my photos in the above link were taken with Elinchrom strobes. They have some great systems.
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BrendanStewart

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Re: You can't do That with medium format
« Reply #334 on: November 04, 2010, 08:26:41 am »

I don't have much experience with wireless flash. But since the challenges you face with high sync speed with focal plane shutters are very different from the ones you have with a leaf shutter, all the fancy sync modes you get with Pocket Wizard will not help you. Elichrom says up to 1/250 on their web site and seems to be designed for focal plane shutters. My best quess would be Profoto air which it is designed for leaf shutters and they say up 1/1500 on their site.

Just to be clear, Elinchrom syncs to 1/800th and 1/1600th no problem.  Ranger RX AS and Quadra's both. I use them exclusively with my Hassy.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2010, 08:28:56 am by BrendanStewart »
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Dick Roadnight

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Re: You can't do That with medium format
« Reply #335 on: November 04, 2010, 09:55:39 am »

I don't have much experience with wireless flash. But since the challenges you face with high sync speed with focal plane shutters are very different from the ones you have with a leaf shutter, all the fancy sync modes you get with Pocket Wizard will not help you. Elichrom says up to 1/250 on their web site and seems to be designed for focal plane shutters. My best quess would be Profoto air which it is designed for leaf shutters and they say up 1/1500 on their site.
I do not use any cameras with focal plane shutters, and I have Hassy V and H systems, and Copal shuttered MFDVC and LF lenses, and I am about to get eShutters for my Apo-Digitars, so why will "all the fancy sync modes you get with Pocket Wizard... not help" me?

eShutters are limited to 1/250th, and I have (old) Elinchroms.
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Dick Roadnight

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Re: You can't do That with medium format
« Reply #336 on: November 04, 2010, 09:59:03 am »

big bang studio units were only powerful because the flash was a long-duration one;
Rob C
I think that the trick is to use big flashes (1,500ws) at fractional power.
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perjorgen

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Re: You can't do That with medium format
« Reply #337 on: November 04, 2010, 11:35:02 am »

Just to be clear, Elinchrom syncs to 1/800th and 1/1600th no problem.  Ranger RX AS and Quadra's both. I use them exclusively with my Hassy.
Maybe the 1/250 on different sync vendors websites should be understood as "It is fast enough for 1/250 sync speed on a focal plane shutter camera" since it would be problematic if they goes out promising sync speeds up to 1/1600

BrendanStewart

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Re: You can't do That with medium format
« Reply #338 on: November 04, 2010, 01:08:07 pm »

Maybe the 1/250 on different sync vendors websites should be understood as "It is fast enough for 1/250 sync speed on a focal plane shutter camera" since it would be problematic if they goes out promising sync speeds up to 1/1600

Agreed, it's a fine line in how you word things. What it should state is;

For focal plane shutter cameras, we sync up to 1/280th (The new speed mode promises 280th)

For Leaf Shutter cameras, we sync up to 1/1600th with less than half a stop loss of light.  (Which is true, i've tested it)
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Nick-T

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Re: You can't do That with medium format
« Reply #339 on: November 04, 2010, 03:55:35 pm »

Am I the only one who is utterly thrilled at the prospect of seeing what Ray can do to Ankor Wat with on camera flash?

Nick-T
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