You can't do That with medium format

[Ray]

Do you seriously imagine yourself conversing with Ansel Adams explaining to him that you just discovered that the sensor X has more DR than the much more expensive MF claims because you saw that important fact in an internet webpage dedicated to measurements...he probably would answer not very politely: "Son, go back to work and show me a nice picture"  

You're joking again aren't you, Fred? Ansel Adams invented the zone system. He was obviously very concerned about technical issues such as dynanic range.

Adams (1981, 52) distinguished among three different exposure scales for the negative:
  
  The full range from black to white, represented by Zone 0 through Zone X.

  The dynamic range comprising Zone I through Zone IX, which Adams considered to represent the darkest and lightest “useful” negative densities.

  The textural range comprising Zone II through Zone VIII. This range of zones conveys a sense of texture and the recognition of substance.

He noted that negatives can record detail through Zone XII and even higher, but that bringing this information within the exposure scale of the print is extremely difficult with normal processing.
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zone_System  

[Ray]

Glad to hear you've taken the time to read the D700 manual, however 1/320 with small flash guns does not give the same results as when you use an MF or LF camera and flash packs, syncing at 1/500, 1/800 or even 1/1,600 (on the Phase One/ Mamiya 645DF and LS lenses), be it freezing motion in the studio or out-powering the sun outside...

Check Claes Axstål's work as a good example for how flash is used outside

Yair

No doubt. I've admitted that the MFDB system has an advantage in that respect. I was really just addressing David Grover's example of a maximum flash syc of 1/125th which perhaps he thinks is typical for 35mm DSLRs. The Nikon Speedlight SB-900, which attaches to the camera, is supposed to have a maximum range of only 20 metres, depending on aperture and ISO.

Are we talking about external flash units remotely controlled, or those that attach to the camera and are portable?

[BrendanStewart]

No doubt. I've admitted that the MFDB system has an advantage in that respect. I was really just addressing David Grover's example of a maximum flash syc of 1/125th which perhaps he thinks is typical for 35mm DSLRs. The Nikon Speedlight SB-900, which attaches to the camera, is supposed to have a maximum range of only 20 metres, depending on aperture and ISO.

Are we talking about external flash units remotely controlled, or those that attach to the camera and are portable?

Speedlites typically sync at 1/250th and 1/320th.  Using studio strobes, is when you come into issues. That's when you back down to 1/125th give or take.

Hassy syncs at 1/800th and Phase does 1/1600th in a couple of cases.

[Dick Roadnight]

For appropriate balance with ambient light, shutter speeds can be selected from 30 secs to 1/8000th, but apparently at shutter speeds faster than 1/320th the flash range is reduced.

Ray
For appropriate balance (of flash) with ambient light, we need flash sync!!!

[Ray]

My point was that he would have ask the evidence of what those laboratory measurements are saying on the real result. You can actually apply the zone system with any camera, regardless of its specs. It's a shooting and lab technique.

Indeed. One should always question the evidence if it seems unbelievable or contradicts other information. I do it myself frequently. You can apply the zone system with any camera, but only part of it. Most film on smaller formats cannot capture the entire dynamic range of Ansel's zone system, which covers about 10-11 stops of DR. Ansel used large format B&W film for good technical reasons.

You can't compare a technical system that is used on the field for practical purpose with a clear aim with a spec data in a webpage.

Yes you can. I've done it. I mentioned before that I took some trouble comparing my 5D with the new Nikon D3 shortly after it first came out, when I was in Thailand. I spent half a day travelling to and fro, across the city of Bangkok, to check for myself these extraordinary claims of high-ISO performance for the D3. I simulated the high ISO settings that the 5D doesn't have (but the D3 does have), by underexposing the 5D by various amounts at ISO 3200.

After examining a hundred or so RAW & jpeg images taken above ISO 3200, I came to the conclusion that the high-ISO advantage of the D3 was in the order of 2/3rds of a stop, half a stop at the most.

My procedure was to match images from each camera that had equal ETTR exposures (after adjusting the histogram for the 5D to simulate an ETTR), then examine detail and noise in the shadows. Since both cameras are of the same format and have a similar pixel count, the 5D having just slightly more pixels, that procedure worked well.

If the DXOMark website had existed at that time, I could have saved myself a lot of trouble, because their laboratory tests show a similar result. They didn't test beyond ISO 3200 with the 5D, but the slope of the graph is clear.

[Ray]

Ray
For appropriate balance (of flash) with ambient light, we need flash sync!!!

I'm just reading what's written in the D700 manual, Dick.

FIXING SHUTTER SPEED AT THE FLASH SYNC SPEED LIMIT

To fix shutter speed at the sync speed limit in shutter-priority, auto, or manual exposure modes, select the next shutter speed after the slowest possible shutter speed (30 s or bulb). An X (flash sync indicator) will be displayed in the control panel and viewfinder.

However, the table on the next page suggests the range of shutter speeds from 1/250th to 30 secs might only apply to the built-in flash. It's not clear. You'd think 443 pages would be sufficient to make everything clear.

I get the impression that above 1/320th, the full strength of the flash will be attenuated. But at slower shutter speeds, all the way down to 30 secs, the full strength of the flash will still apply but the strength of the ambient light will increase with the greater exposure, but I'm no expert in the use of flash.

[hjulenissen]

We all know that the Nikon files are much better (photographically speaking) than the "washing machine aspect" of the Canons

I wasnt aware of this. Even when comparing my Canon images to family members Nikon images I cannot see such a thing. Please tell me what conditions are needed for your statement to be not only true, but obvious to all.

-h

[hjulenissen]

I believe that AA did a great deal of "real world" (ambient, outdoor) photography, so DR would be of more interest to him (and landscape photographers) than studio photogs.

Perhaps it is the sign of a great master of art when she knows the technique needed in her art so well, that our attention is not drawn to technique at all?

A pro might do a better job than an amateur with the same camera, but the instant feed-back of digital makes it so easy for the amateur or part-timer to get an acceptable result.

A pro makes a living out of it. An amateur simply loves it. I think there are "skilled" and "less skilled" individuals from both camps.

-k

[UlfKrentz]

... exposure, but I'm no expert in the use of flash.

That´s obvious.

[Martin Kristiansen]

Sync speed is a big deal when controlling the balance of flash to ambient. For those of us that shoot with flash and for example shoot restaurant interiors full control using high flash sync speeds is important and the higher sync speeds you get using on camera dedicated DSLR flash systems are not very helpful. Usually we will have various flash heads with various shapers hidden/placed around the set.

[Dick Roadnight]

Sync speed is a big deal when controlling the balance of flash to ambient.

The minimum or base ISO of backs seems to creep upwards, but if you can use 50 ISO, (or even 25) it makes it easier to balance sunlight, particularly if you can use the optimum f8ish, e.g. when using tilt to control the POSF.

[yaya]

I'm just reading what's written in the D700 manual, Dick.
 

However, the table on the next page suggests the range of shutter speeds from 1/250th to 30 secs might only apply to the built-in flash. It's not clear. You'd think 443 pages would be sufficient to make everything clear.

I get the impression that above 1/320th, the full strength of the flash will be attenuated. But at slower shutter speeds, all the way down to 30 secs, the full strength of the flash will still apply but the strength of the ambient light will increase with the greater exposure, but I'm no expert in the use of flash.

Ray,

Do yourself a favour, go and borrow a flash (any flash...on or off camera, monoblock or a separate pack/ head etc.) and try to sync it with your D700 at 1/500 or 1/800 or 1/4000. Then come back and tell us if you have found anything unusual with the look of your images

Awaiting your insight

Yair

You will then, possibly, realise that seeing only half an image is not that great...the other half will be Black, showing you the back of the shutter blades...

[Dick Roadnight]

Ray,

Do yourself a favour, go and borrow a flash (any flash...on or off camera, monoblock or a separate pack/ head etc.) and try to sync it with your D700 at 1/500 or 1/800 or 1/4000. Then come back and tell us if you have found anything unusual with the look of your images

Awaiting your insight

Yair

You will then, possibly, realise that seeing only half an image is not that great...the other half will be Black, showing you the back of the shutter blades...

This is, of course, the effect you get with a roller-blind or foil focal-plane shutter, but, as I am sure you, Yair, appreciate, with a leaf shutter you can get attenuation of the flash power as the shutter opens and closes, giving the effect of an opening and closing diaphragm, even if the sync is optimal, with the flash producing peak power when the shutter is fully open. 

[BrendanStewart]

As others have mentioned control of ambient along with flash is key... for instance;

http://www.flickr.com/photos/symbolphotography/4895863233/

Not an amazing shot by any stretch of the imagination, however, it was shot in bright mid-day sunlight. Having the ability to not only control flash output, but the sunlight is a HUGE benefit when shooting in varying conditions.

[Ray]

Ray,

Do yourself a favour, go and borrow a flash (any flash...on or off camera, monoblock or a separate pack/ head etc.) and try to sync it with your D700 at 1/500 or 1/800 or 1/4000. Then come back and tell us if you have found anything unusual with the look of your images

I don't need to, yaya. I'm smart enough to understand if the maximum sync speed is 1/320, then at 1/8000 the intensity of the flash will be much reduced. The D700 manual tells me it will be reduced.

Did you think I am arguing that the MFDB systems do not have some advantage with flash?

However, I have learned something from this exchange. Searching the internet for manuals, it seems the Nikon SB-900 (with the D700) can do repeat flash during a single exposure for either a stroboscopic effect or to enable a greater cummulative flash intensity during long shutter speeds. I might buy one of those Speedlights.

Here's a link to some creative use of that feature. http://www.nikonusa.com/Learn-And-Explore/Photography-Techniques/fy1hs59w/1/Repeating-Flash.html#tab=1

[Ray]

As others have mentioned control of ambient along with flash is key... for instance;

http://www.flickr.com/photos/symbolphotography/4895863233/

Not an amazing shot by any stretch of the imagination, however, it was shot in bright mid-day sunlight. Having the ability to not only control flash output, but the sunlight is a HUGE benefit when shooting in varying conditions.

The lighting doesn't look at all natural to me.

[yaya]

I don't need to, yaya. I'm smart enough to understand if the maximum sync speed is 1/320, then at 1/8000 the intensity of the flash will be much reduced. The D700 manual tells me it will be reduced.

Did you think I am arguing that the MFDB systems do not have some advantage with flash?

However, I have learned something from this exchange. Searching the internet for manuals, it seems the Nikon SB-900 (with the D700) can do repeat flash during a single exposure for either a stroboscopic effect or to enable a greater cummulative flash intensity during long shutter speeds. I might buy one of those Speedlights.

Here's a link to some creative use of that feature. http://www.nikonusa.com/Learn-And-Explore/Photography-Techniques/fy1hs59w/1/Repeating-Flash.html#tab=1

Great...after you have bought that SB-900 kit, try it at speed faster than your camera's max sync speed

But before you do that, take a look at this page

We're talking about the difference between focal plane shutters (used in 35mm cameras) and leaf shutters (used in MF and LF cameras)

[Ray]

Great...after you have bought that SB-900 kit, try it at speed faster than your camera's max sync speed

But before you do that, take a look at this page

We're talking about the difference between focal plane shutters (used in 35mm cameras) and leaf shutters (used in MF and LF cameras)

Well, I am disappointed. I imagined 'this page' would tell me something about the marvelous attributes of flash units that attach to MFDB systems. Instead, I got a page about the D90. The FX D700 that I use, has a maximum flash sync of 1/320th, at full flash intensity. Not as good as some MFDB systems, I'm sure, but still not bad.

You guys are a bit cagey. I still don't know if these marvelous flash attributes of MFDB relate to portable flash units that attach to the camera. I'm a peripatetic sort of guy. I don't travel around with a truck-load of lighting equipment.

[David Grover / Capture One]

Well, I am disappointed. I imagined 'this page' would tell me something about the marvelous attributes of flash units that attach to MFDB systems. Instead, I got a page about the D90. The FX D700 that I use, has a maximum flash sync of 1/320th, at full flash intensity. Not as good as some MFDB systems, I'm sure, but still not bad.

You guys are a bit cagey. I still don't know if these marvelous flash attributes of MFDB relate to portable flash units that attach to the camera. I'm a peripatetic sort of guy. I don't travel around with a truck-load of lighting equipment.

Not cagey Ray, just read what you have been presented.  It was explained earlier in the thread.

"Sync speed is a big deal when controlling the balance of flash to ambient. For those of us that shoot with flash and for example shoot restaurant interiors full control using high flash sync speeds is important and the higher sync speeds you get using on camera dedicated DSLR flash systems are not very helpful. Usually we will have various flash heads with various shapers hidden/placed around the set."

Flash heads, as in not Nikon Speedlights which you won't find on a professional set of any genre in photography.

Symbolphoto gave you an example as well shot with an MF camera.  Whether you like or dislike the effect is upto you, but it is necessary for a lot of photographers to achieve what they want in an image.

[BrendanStewart]

The lighting doesn't look at all natural to me.

It's not trying to be natural. It's supposed to be more interesting then natural light. Otherwise i'd just stick with ambient.