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Author Topic: >61MP image files for peepers  (Read 38056 times)

bcooter

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Re: >61MP image files for peepers
« Reply #60 on: October 07, 2010, 03:14:49 PM »

snip........ Every time a new back comes out (and I started with a 6MP back) people (myself included) have said the same "We have enough Mega-Pixels already" but the sales figures ALWAYS favour the latest (ie biggest) chip so manufacturers are just catering to demand.

Nick,

I don't know if I fully agree, because usually more megapixels come with more features (this latest leaf excluded).  In the instance of the h4d40 it has higher iso and a larger screen than the previous model.

I've personally thought about a hd40 but would be quite happy with the 31, except the 40 is reported to be cleaner at 800 iso, though even with the dslrs I cut the iso number in half because they all seem to overstate what is clean and sharp.

Though if your premise holds true and the makers just play to the market, will we soon see an H 80mpx, a Phase 85+?

Regardless, I think rather than worry about what my cameras don't have, I think more like in the film days of what can I do with them that they allow.  With the Phase backs I have to tether because the lcd is really not usable, but I've found ways to make that work for me.

Now if medium format wants to really improve their market share I suggest finding someway to get the older cameras in the hands of younger photographers.  Our first assistant is a true digital age photographer and has never shot film, mostly shot his portfolio, (which is quite good) with a Canon 5d and 5d2.  Recently I've let him take my Contax's and backs on weekends to use for his work and now it's almost impossible to get them returned when he comes in on Monday.

I believe if there was a 31mpx option closer to the price of the Canon he'd buy it, or if the used market was more friendly in regards to repairs and dealer/maker support he'd probably go that direction.

I really think there should be a manufacturer's refurbished line of cameras, kind of the way the car makers do vehicles that have come off lease.  It would be a good entry point.

BC
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Dick Roadnight

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Re: >61MP image files for peepers
« Reply #61 on: October 07, 2010, 04:25:02 PM »

From what I have seen the H4D40 (alone amongst medium format) does this at full res. I am waiting to test this for myself but all the files I have seen at 800 ISO have been amazing (for medium format).
Nick-T
[/quote]
Is the H4D-60 as good?
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David Grover / Phase One

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Re: >61MP image files for peepers
« Reply #62 on: October 08, 2010, 03:31:22 AM »

From what I have seen the H4D40 (alone amongst medium format) does this at full res. I am waiting to test this for myself but all the files I have seen at 800 ISO have been amazing (for medium format).
Nick-T

Is the H4D-60 as good?

The H4D40 is more suited to ISO800 captures.
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John R Smith

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Re: >61MP image files for peepers
« Reply #63 on: October 08, 2010, 03:59:20 AM »

Well, the Kodak KAF 39000 sensor in my DB is now quite a venerable piece of kit in the world of medium format backs (a five year old design). So I don't expect miracles in terms of performance, although I must say that I do like the rather film-like image quality which it produces for me. It may be that the 50 MP sensor in the new CFV back will do a better job in many respects.

What I do find is that shooting at ISO 400 and then "pushing" the file + 1EV in Lightroom produces a better result than shooting at ISO 800. So that's what I do, when I am in a very dimly lit church and I simply can't use a tripod to get the angle I want.

John
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Fritzer

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Re: >61MP image files for peepers
« Reply #64 on: October 08, 2010, 12:25:17 PM »

...., but in reality at this stage of the process 95% of all images of importance are processed in photoshop.  I know . . . horrors of horrors, but it's a fact.

Well, you know the old-school ways of shooting - are you saying you'd prefer the purity and joys of shooting film, and all the awkward analouge tweaking, handling and procedures that go with it, to some digital file, whatever it looks like, and Photoshop ?
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Fritzer

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Re: >61MP image files for peepers
« Reply #65 on: October 08, 2010, 01:04:45 PM »

Bingo!

I'm also very tired of this internet noise about gear specs and the new promissed land 100MP back or whatever new gadget. And this is not Lu-La but generalised.

This topic happens to be about gear, so it's not surprising gear is being discussed here, is it ?
Good for you to have no need for gadgets, such as high-res digital backs .
Believe it or not - my Aptus 75 with its 33 MP is still adequate in my line of work, but a slightly bigger sensor and twice the resolution would be a great upgrade.
If you have to ask why - ...


Quote
Then, very very little real coverage of workflow in real situations, usability etc (wich IMO are much more interesting)...but no, just resolution, megapixels, ccd idiosincracy and how-tether-happy.

I'd like to see a real video of a new product, shoot in real situation by someone like B.C from the beginning to the end. No words, no explainations but just the shooting experience. Is that exists? For what I know it does not.

That wouldn't tell you anything about the product.
As a beginner, to experience a workflow, you need to be there.
Even better, work there, or do some shooting.

As for sharing user experience - I find this forum very helpful.

Someone has mentioned soundbites above - I'm sure there are how-to vids on youtube re. photography.
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Doug Peterson

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Re: >61MP image files for peepers
« Reply #66 on: October 08, 2010, 01:39:27 PM »

Agreed.

1) As pointed out above it's a very clearly labeled gear thread. If talking gear specs isn't your thing you don't need to open the thread.
2) Even in a very well written diatribe against focusing on gear the author still noted that he'd use a Zeiss 50mm rather than a Canon 50mm.  ;D

In all seriousness. Yes we all know. Gear doesn't make a photographer. Gear can only hope to
- provide a more visceral/pleasurable/preferable mode of capturing the image (easier manual focus, brighter/larger viewfinder, liveview, waist level viewfinder, better ergonomics, the feeling of mechanical connection to the imaging process)
- provide a distinctive look (e.g. bokeh/focus-falloff, unique color, use of extended dynamic range, unusual lenses like hassy 110/2 or mamiya 80/1.9)
- provide imaging tools/techniques otherwise unavailable (tilt/shift/swing, high flash sync speed, image stabilization, infrared/UV sensitivity, ultrafast glass, long exposures)
- provide more file flexibility (resolution, dynamic range, tonal smoothness, color look and color flexibility)

Resolution is one of those items listed. For any given photographer it may be at the very bottom, for some it will be towards the top. Just because you don't fit into the later category doesn't mean you should poo poo it.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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bradleygibson

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Re: >61MP image files for peepers
« Reply #67 on: October 08, 2010, 02:14:26 PM »

+1

bcooter

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Re: >61MP image files for peepers
« Reply #68 on: October 08, 2010, 02:23:51 PM »

Quote

snip
1) As pointed out above it's a very clearly labeled gear thread. If talking gear specs isn't your thing you don't need to open the thread.


I somewhat agree, though every thread doesn't have to turn into, or be limited to a sales pitch either. 

I think there might be some room to talk about photography, how we produce it and like most open thought it can lead to interesting sharing of ideas. 

Then again maybe not, maybe it should just be about new lenses and digital backs, though at this stage I think most participants know what dealers sell what brands, what brands "provide a distinctive look".

Personally, I'm not sure that any one brand provides as a clear distinctive look as some might assert.

Some are easier to use, some more cost effective, some brands more mature and more available in the market. 


BC
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fredjeang

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Re: >61MP image files for peepers
« Reply #69 on: October 08, 2010, 02:45:39 PM »

Fritzer,

There are different needs for different users. I don't know in wich area you are working and when you talk about workflow I assume that not in the same as mine.
Beginner? Well, kind of, I've never hiden where I am at the moment: just an humble assistant that is building his personal portfolio.

But the fact is I assist on a daily basis 2 star photographers and that means, huge production, international top models, big team, big brands etc...so I'm pretty much aware of what the workflow means beleive me and if you want to know who are they, I will be pleased to send you a personal message.

When I write things here (with my more than unperfect english I admit), it is not to criticize for criticizing. But I'm asking myself the same question about who's who, and who's advices are coming from a deep understanding of what the real work is, at least in the commercial photography and specially fashion (the area that I know), because it seems that we don't see the same things.
Maybe it is my lack of long years experience, maybe it is because my relativly young age, but my teacher is the plateau, not the forums apart from some photographers that I respect here their works and experience.

Each time we point about the progress we would like MF brands to do, it is regarded as a personal attack to the format, so what we should do is just being happy about the usability, the tether and the lcd and the prices. But the comments are not based on some wired wishes. Is it too much to ask when we are talking about those top gear products that the manufacturers send professional level photography instead of these snapshots that we generally see when release a new product? As James said, horrors and horrors...and like it or not, that's the reality.
In fact, DPreviewish websites should open a new MF section because that is exactly the kind of pics that are spread over and over again. At the beginning I was ok with that, I didn't even understood why some experienced photographers where complaining about, but now I join their views.

I'm always thankfull when soneone take the time to show files, but always disapointed that they are generally snapshots, with little if none information about the real back capabilities.
And when I read people getting enthousiastic about those snaps I just think that forums are democratic institutions where every voice counts...

It has been a long time now since I haven't seen a MF gear in at work, in fact, years. But again, I'm talking about fashion. I'm aware that for landscape, art and arquitecture etc...backs have their strengh, of course.
But the fact is that we would like to work with it, I would like to be able to take a Phase instead of the Canon 99%, but it is just too slow and too many hassles.
In my philosophy, I hate tether, others would love it and that's perfectly respectable. So my claim to MF is: give us the choice. If they just ged rid-of the computer dependence one day, I'm ready to invest a lot of money on those gear, but the reality of the production does not suit this jacket. None of the top photographers that I'm working with at the moment is shooting with backs, but they where in the past.

Also the gearmania, yes this forum is extremely usefull. Probably the best place to be on the internet for tech and gear. This is indeed a very powerfull exchange tool. But I never heard any real artist being obsess with gear, never in my all life. I was talking about when things reach the obsession, and I thing it happens quite a lot over the internet. Not of course about the healphy interest to talk and share about gear techs and specs.

IMHO.

 
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yaya

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Re: >61MP image files for peepers
« Reply #70 on: October 08, 2010, 03:12:59 PM »

Perhaps we should all take a step back and take note of the title of this thread and read it as it is?

I wonder how many of the critiques here would dare to post any of their images larger than 658p or 15" prints with no post processing? I mean I'm sure there are a few but only a few...

----

/the Aptus-II 12 snapper

Dick Roadnight

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Re: >61MP image files for peepers
« Reply #71 on: October 08, 2010, 03:21:30 PM »

Gear doesn't make a photographer. Gear can only hope to...
Technically, I think it is normally considered impossible to take a photograph without a camera... but I appreciate that many of the features of cameras only make it easier to set the camera... but it is only the lens, shutter and sensor that take the picture.
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fredjeang

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Re: >61MP image files for peepers
« Reply #72 on: October 08, 2010, 03:26:57 PM »

Perhaps we should all take a step back and take note of the title of this thread and read it as it is?

I wonder how many of the critiques here would dare to post any of their images larger than 658p or 15" prints with no post processing? I mean I'm sure there are a few but only a few...

----

/the Aptus-II 12 snapper

;D ;D
Yair, I almost drop my cofee (yes it is 21 past 20 here and I'm on cofee) when I saw the signature. You have the sense of humor, wich is nice.
Well, I'm perfectly aware that the pics are not representatives of your personal work, there where here to show and share something "neutral" and my post was not directly aimed to you but a general feeling all over the internet.
But of course, when that's done you can expect reactions, some positives, others negatives and all view IMO have their rights.
In fact, that's a brands politics issue, not the Lu-La posters fault.
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Rob C

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Re: >61MP image files for peepers
« Reply #73 on: October 08, 2010, 04:30:55 PM »

Fred

Thanks for the Peter Lindbergh link; it was the best bit of watching that I have had in months.

I have been aware of his work for many years, and he is one of those photographers whose work you can usually identify right away; I was going to say blindfolded, but thought that would read as a slight exaggeration. He used to be a Hasselblad and Nikon man ever since I heard of him; I wonder if he still uses 'blads too... What did surprise me though, was how much rapid sequence he seems to do; I'd have thought that anyone from film would have got over that years ago.

It says all you need to say about small cameras (even if they are a damn sight bigger than they used to be) and their ability to move and catch life, even artificial life, as in photography. Something else it shouts is the huge difference in thought betwen a Germanic European and an Italian one. What it says about our transatlantic relationships with pictures is also very clear to see. They are almost worlds apart, not just an ocean. This is not to say one is superior to the other; just that the cultural differences are vast. I know exactly which one I would like to have been doing were it possible.

Another thing that it shows is the value, the contribution, of a real model, a woman with something to add to the moment. You just can't teach that sort of immediate reaction to instructions, suggestions nor your own (the model's) input without the photographer even opening his mouth. (Exactly what you mentioned is missing from the 'new' kids who you see coming into the business from a model school.) I note that he also, like so many, uses the same girls - women, now - as much as he seems able to do. And why not? The work becomes a combination of shorthand, unspoken understanding of each other and above all, the respect that being together so often makes obvious. It works, damn it, it just works. His Golden Age continues.

Rob C
« Last Edit: October 09, 2010, 03:26:02 PM by Rob C »
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fredjeang

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Re: >61MP image files for peepers
« Reply #74 on: October 08, 2010, 05:20:48 PM »

Fred

Thanks for the Peter Lindberg link; it was the best bit of watching that I have had in months.

I have been aware of his work for many years, and he is one of those photographers whose work you can usually identify right away; I was going to say blindfolded, but thought that would read as a slight exaggeration. He used to be a Hasselblad and Nikon man ever since I heard of him; I wonder if he still uses 'blads too... What did surprise me though, was how much rapid sequence he seems to do; I'd have thought that anyone from film would have got over that years ago.

It says all you need to say about small cameras (even if they are a damn sight bigger than they used to be) and their ability to move and catch life, even artificial life, as in photography. Something else it shouts is the huge difference in thought betwen a Germanic European and an Italian one. What it says about our transatlantic relationships with pictures is also very clear to see. They are almost worlds apart, not just an ocean. This is not to say one is superior to the other; just that the cultural differences are vast. I know exactly which one I would like to have been doing were it possible.

Another thing that it shows is the value, the contribution, of a real model, a woman with something to add to the moment. You just can't teach that sort of immediate reaction to instructions, suggestions nor your own (the model's) input without the photographer even opening his mouth. (Exactly what you mentioned is missing from the 'new' kids who you see coming into the business from a model school.) I note that he also, like so many, uses the same girls - women, now - as much as he seems able to do. And why not? The work becomes a combination of shorthand, unspoken understanding of each other and above all, the respect that being together so often makes obvious. It works, damn it, it just works. His Golden Age continues.

Rob C
Rob,
I'm glad you enjoyed his "30 years of Vogue" movie as much as I did. As you say, it just damn works!
Maybe Lindberg taught me a very important thing, "just be yourself". I never felt at home with strobes and you know, one ends doing things because of the habit but something in your head says "why? is there a deep reason?". And then, same for the tether bondage. I realised that following my own path is the way. Man, do you see the same as me? it is pure relashionship with the model, I mean organic, artistic... almost violent, but there is an incredible amount of creative energy. He shoots like a dancer, and dance with the model. A cable, a laptop is not possible because it would break the dynamic.
I'm back into hot lights. Freedom! freedom to move arround and get very close, freedom to shoot stills and then movie in a second, while the (inter)action is happening and then back to stills.
When watch these kind of monster working, does gear matters? This is something else, it's art, at the top. How refreshing!
Great Peter Lindberg!
 
« Last Edit: October 08, 2010, 06:14:22 PM by fredjeang »
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: >61MP image files for peepers
« Reply #75 on: October 09, 2010, 09:13:37 AM »

Great comment, BC!

Best regards
Erik


Nick,

I don't know if I fully agree, because usually more megapixels come with more features (this latest leaf excluded).  In the instance of the h4d40 it has higher iso and a larger screen than the previous model.

I've personally thought about a hd40 but would be quite happy with the 31, except the 40 is reported to be cleaner at 800 iso, though even with the dslrs I cut the iso number in half because they all seem to overstate what is clean and sharp.

Though if your premise holds true and the makers just play to the market, will we soon see an H 80mpx, a Phase 85+?

Regardless, I think rather than worry about what my cameras don't have, I think more like in the film days of what can I do with them that they allow.  With the Phase backs I have to tether because the lcd is really not usable, but I've found ways to make that work for me.

Now if medium format wants to really improve their market share I suggest finding someway to get the older cameras in the hands of younger photographers.  Our first assistant is a true digital age photographer and has never shot film, mostly shot his portfolio, (which is quite good) with a Canon 5d and 5d2.  Recently I've let him take my Contax's and backs on weekends to use for his work and now it's almost impossible to get them returned when he comes in on Monday.

I believe if there was a 31mpx option closer to the price of the Canon he'd buy it, or if the used market was more friendly in regards to repairs and dealer/maker support he'd probably go that direction.

I really think there should be a manufacturer's refurbished line of cameras, kind of the way the car makers do vehicles that have come off lease.  It would be a good entry point.

BC

fredjeang

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Re: >61MP image files for peepers
« Reply #76 on: October 09, 2010, 10:33:38 AM »

I'll risk leaping to Fred's defence here.

I admire his passion and enthusiasm. He has it seems had his head turned by one or two of the more experienced photographers on LL and in particular JR, or should that be BC, hell, to avoid confusion I'll refer to him here as JC.
I can think of worse photographers to look up to and try to emulate, in fact I can think of few better, and this is a positive. However, sometimes "beginners" - not my words - or as I'll refer to them here, disciples, are best served by speaking less and listening more. Photographers such as JC, and others, have a wealth of knowledge and have formed opinion based on a wealth of experience.

I don't doubt that given the opportunity he's been given, together with his passion and enthusiasm, Fred will go on to greater things and in time also have a wealth of knowledge and experience to share. I wish him luck.

 
I kind of agree with you Keith. I am in a strange position at this time where my experience "on my own" is not matured enough and at the same time I'm working like crazy in big productions and get experience faster and faster in the plateau with photographers I admire and respect. It is a big privilege, I am aware of that opportunity. So I can opinate "from a safe place", but at the same time, I do not have the personal maturity and background.

About James Russell, the reason why I often coincide with his views, regardless of the personal apreciation I have for his work, is that I simply see and experience the same things as he does. But fair to say that I'm in a similar area. If I did not agreed with him, I would express it the same way. But it just results that when he writes something, I can see that the content corresponds to what I also experience in commercial photography with human being involved. That correlation is to me the reference that BC posts are reliable. Of course, he is not the only one, there are many experienced photographers here, and so many different needs. I feel probably close to James because of the area involved and also as I pointed several times, because when he shoots humans, they still look humans and not robots. And in fashion it is so easy to "overdo".
I see a lot of those over processed pics in the "recent pro works" section.
The other reason, and this is to me important, is that James embrassed the video lenguage. Many of his posts have been really usefull in the movie section for example.
So yes, to me, James is an healphy influence, exactly like the masters I'm working with at the moment but on the internet. Of course, I have recognized several other masters in this forum too that inspire me.
You are also one to me Keith. I've been a fan of your work from the beginning. This is a totally different approach from commercial photography, but I come from painting and can really apreciate the quality involved in your photographic images (and I know that internet never deserves the real printing quality).

Thanks for the encouragement.

Cheers.


« Last Edit: March 30, 2011, 10:32:45 AM by fredjeang »
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Fritzer

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Re: >61MP image files for peepers
« Reply #77 on: October 09, 2010, 10:56:48 AM »

Perhaps we should all take a step back and take note of the title of this thread and read it as it is?

I wonder how many of the critiques here would dare to post any of their images larger than 658p or 15" prints with no post processing? I mean I'm sure there are a few but only a few...

----

/the Aptus-II 12 snapper


Oh, you're still here ? ;)

As for the images posted in the original post, thanks for those, gives me an impression of what the capabilities of the A12 could be like.
As for post processing - personally, I don't care what the raw file or processed 16bit looks like, as long it is sharp, detailed, and as free of issues as possible .
Just as I regarded film.

Fritzer,

There are different needs for different users.

My point entirely.
That's why labeling an 80MP digital back a gadget, and to ramble about MP-race and such nonsense, is ignorant at best.

Contrary to popular belief, photographers who spend 30k or so on a product like this, usually know very well what they are doing and why.


Quote
But the fact is I assist on a daily basis 2 star photographers and that means, huge production, international top models, big team, big brands etc...so I'm pretty much aware of what the workflow means beleive me and if you want to know who are they, I will be pleased to send you a personal message.

You are in a good place then.

Quote
When I write things here (with my more than unperfect english I admit), it is not to criticize for criticizing. But I'm asking myself the same question about who's who, and who's advices are coming from a deep understanding of what the real work is, at least in the commercial photography and specially fashion (the area that I know), because it seems that we don't see the same things.

Your English is at least as good as mine . ;)
As for advice - there is no magic bullet.
And without experience, it's difficult to fully understand what seasoned pros like some of the posters here are sharing .
I know this sounds arrogant, but there you go .


Quote
Also the gearmania, yes this forum is extremely usefull. Probably the best place to be on the internet for tech and gear. This is indeed a very powerfull exchange tool. But I never heard any real artist being obsess with gear, never in my all life. I was talking about when things reach the obsession, and I thing it happens quite a lot over the internet. Not of course about the healphy interest to talk and share about gear techs and specs.

What I think is, the only people obsessed with certain gear are the ones who have no idea what it is made for, let alone are using it .
Every time I read the phrase 'it's the artist, not the gear, stupid' , I know there is nothing to learn from the person writing this.

The gear discussion you read about here, it's just the tip of the iceberg - and it's got bugger all to do with creativity , that's a whole different topic.
Tether, no tether, it's not a matter worth discussing; horses for courses.
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Doug Peterson

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Re: >61MP image files for peepers
« Reply #78 on: October 09, 2010, 12:51:57 PM »

I somewhat agree, though every thread doesn't have to turn into, or be limited to a sales pitch either. 
[...]
Then again maybe not, maybe it should just be about new lenses and digital backs, though at this stage I think most participants know what dealers sell what brands, what brands "provide a distinctive look".

Personally, I'm not sure that any one brand provides as a clear distinctive look as some might assert.

:-(

If you look at my list half the items would not favor the purchase a MF system (though to be fair half would). The point of the list is that you buy gear in photography for specific reasons.

Distinctive look could apply as much (in fact even more) to a Holga with cross processing as it could to any brand I use.

Dick Roadnight

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Re: >61MP image files for peepers
« Reply #79 on: October 09, 2010, 02:15:19 PM »

What I think is, the only people obsessed with certain gear are the ones who have no idea what it is made for, let alone are using it  ...

...horses for courses.
I think some here think I am obsessed with "certain gear", but the courses for which I want horses include old stone architecture and landscapes, and I want grass not to look like a billiard table, stonework not to look like toffee, and skin not to look like plastic.
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