Compose in Black & White?

[Peter McLennan]

Even cheaper and more reliable than the Wratten filter is squinting.  

If you  squint at a subject, the reduction in your visual acuity is very similar to what the lens sees, and it looks much like it will photograph in black and white.

Close one eye and squint and the effect is even better. ::

Peter

[Dan Sroka]

Even if this feature existed, I doubt I'd ever use it. So much of the quality of an excellent black and white photo comes from the darkroom, whether chemical or digital, that the preview image really won't tell you anything. However, the nice thing about using digitial is that you can train yourself to read the histogram, and see when you are getting a decent range of data that will convert into a good range of zones.

[Bobtrips]

I'm a little confused.  You seemed to be asking about whether you could 'see' the image on a digital camera in B&W before you took the picture.  The answer is No on a dSLR, Yes on some fixed lens digitals.

But the last post seemed to be about producing B&W images from a digital file.  Is that what you were asking?

[Arwen]

I'm still a bit confused.

I'm so used to using my mavica that, of course, has no TTL viewer thus all shots are composed using the LCD screen. This is what I was calling "preview" - I could see exactly what the picture was going to look like in the LCD. I played with the S2 at a camera store and what I found with the S2 was that it appeared it could do the same thing for me. When I switched it to b/w mode whatever I looked at in the LCD was in b/w just like the Mavica. And I could swear the S2 recorded the image in b/w, too. Was I mistaken?

I don't mean to be thick headed or belabor this. I understand the concept of the mirror and viewfinder on the SLR and how this would be the same on a digital SLR regarding the TTL viewfinder. But what you're saying is - no DSLR can allow composition of the shot using the LCD screen, color or b/w....    So what was hapening in the camera store when I set the S2 to b/w mode and held it up (NOT to my eye looking through the viewfinder) and looked at the LCD screen and everything I pointed it to (before even taking a picture) was indeed in b/w?  Is there some other mechanism that puts an image on the LCD screen so you can see it before the shot is taken? Argh...

Thank you.

Julie

[Jonathan Wienke]

The only problem with that is if you depend on a B&W converter device to "see" B&W for you, you stand a good chance of missing an opportunity because the B&W preview display was blah and uninteresting, even though there is a good B&W image to be made from the scene. If you can look at a scene, and create a composition in your mind in color or B&W without any equipment other than your eyes and imagination, you have an extremely powerful photographic skill at your disposal.

[Dan Sroka]

So Johnathon,  how would you teach someone to 'see' in B&W?

Practice.

Don't mean to be simplistic, but B&W is a skill and an interpretive art, and you have to develop your own look and style.

[Bobtrips]

For what it's worth, I agree with Ralph, Jonathan, et al. Generally speaking, viewing a B&W image on a camera's EVF would be similar to using Photoshop and  converting the mode to Grayscale. Maybe with some images you'd like the results. But to be truly useful, such an EVF would need to have some adjustments to allow the photographer to change the way each color contributes to the B&W tonality.

For me the decision to take an image for later conversion to B&W has to do with shape, form, shadows, texture.  I find it easier to do this in a grayscale viewfinder than in a color viewfinder.

Could it be that someone with vast experience can 'see' B&W while looking at color?  Quite possible.  But what we're talking about, what the OP was looking for, was a way to get there without years of trial and error.

[Arwen]

Hello.

I'm new to this forum and have a question that's been on my mind for some time that I hope someone knows the answer to. I only know of one pro digital camera that allows the user to switch the preview LCD screen to black and white. This is the Fuji Pro S2. Is there any other brands/models that have this ability? People always tell me that I can use software to change any image to b/w but I really enjoy the ability to compose in b/w. I'm particularly interested in knowing if the Sony F828 can do this. Even the S2 specs don't mention this. Are there many or few choices with this feature and why isn't it more popular. Is it just me?

Thank you kindly.

[Arwen]

Thank you for your reply, Andy.

I'm humbled... Alain's article is invaluable! The filter comes as somewhat of a let down, but a solution none-the-less. I didn't really have an understanding of what digital can, and can't do in black and white (being the rookie I am). I've had a Sony Mavica for years (I know... it's a dinosaur) and I enjoy taking b/w landscape shots with it - just for fun. It's been a great tool to help me learn to "see" in tones and shapes, etc. I definitely need to read more of the great info on this site.  

Thank very much for your helpful reply.

Julie

[Alan Little]

I wouldn't get too upset about not many digital cameras having this capability, since NO film camera has it and people have still managed to take b&w photographs with film cameras successfully for, what, 150 years or thereabouts?

It's an interesting idea for something a dgital camera could, hypothetically, do better than a film camera. But then, no digital camera will give you anywhere near the dynamic range of Tri-X (yet - the S3 might be a step in the right direction) so there are still going to be things you can't do with digital until that major problem is fixed.

[Bobtrips]

Of course B&W preview can't happen with a dSLR, as their LCD screens are fed only the image taken, not the image that could be taken.

So we're really talking about digitals with fixed lenses.  There's no reason why this feature couldn't be added.  My Minolta A1 switches the display to B&W in very low light conditions and takes the image in color.  And it switches the display to B&W when the camera is set for B&W capture.

I would prefer that one could set the display to B&W while leaving the capture in color mode.  That way I could 'think' B&W and do the conversion while editing for the best results.

But we're getting there.  Before very long (within a year or so) I think we'll see an exchangeable lens, medium-size sensor digital with an EVF.  Then new worlds will open....

[Jonathan Wienke]

I would have no use for a B&W viewfinder preview. Reality is in color; you should learn to "see" your shot without having to look through a piece of equipment. Any filter or EVF would show at best one possible B&W interpretation of the scene at hand out of the thousands or millions of possibilities, and may bear little resemblance to the desired final finished image.

[Arwen]

I am astounded at all the intelligent and well-thought out replies. Thank you! Digital may never deliver b/w as I thought it might. With your help I have a better understanding of it and even more important, how much I have to learn. I'm a huge fan of b/w because it skews reality to a degree but I can see that digital is not going to deliver what I thought it might, in that regard. I thought that what I could do in the darkroom with b/w would translate to digital b/w just as nicely as digital color. Afterall, isn't that what Photo Shop and the like are for? Like I said, I'm a rookie.

If DSLR's capture only some rendition of black and white, what does that say for digital's color renditions? Again, I guess that's why we use photo editors (?). It seems that digital is to film what say maybe watercolor is to oil paints - it's just another great, fun medium to explore and enjoyed for what it is and all the great advantages it offers.

The squinting thing really works but I have to practice so my eyelids don't twitch. Now, I'm intrigued by filter options, and the monotone viewer. What great suggestions! I can't tell you how wonderful it is to talk with other photographers! Thank you, thank you, thank you!

Respectfully,
Julie

[boku]

If DSLR's capture only some rendition of black and white, what does that say for digital's color renditions? Again, I guess that's why we use photo editors (?). It seems that digital is to film what say maybe watercolor is to oil paints - it's just another great, fun medium to explore and enjoyed for what it is and all the great advantages it offers.

It is vital to understand a basic difference between B+W film and digital images intended for B+W output.

1) B+W film, although beautiful, limits the tonal adjustements that can be done in the darkroom because once the exposure is made, no balance can be made between the tonal representation of color. That is why B+W film photographers use color filters.

2) Digital files can be converted to B+W and the tonal representations of color can be adjusted ad infinitum, at your leasure, in the computer.

Huge workflow difference. This is a distinct advantage for digital. The downside for digital is that achieiving a decent print is not as easy. Or is it?

[Bobtrips]

The S2 uses a Nikon SLR body.  The light coming into the lens is reflected by a mirror to the optical viewfinder.   If color comes into the lens, you're going to see color.  Like other dSLRs no light can get to the sensor until the mirror is swung up out of the way.   If the sensor can't receive light then it can't send a signal/picture to the LCD.  With a dSLR you don't get a preview of your shots in color or B&W.

(I don't think that there's anyway to lock up the mirror and get a preview image on any dSLR, could be wrong.)

You're right about the 'fixed lens' issue.  Almost all dSLRs have exchangeable lenses.  There are a couple of older Olys that are an exception.  To date no non-dSLRs with exchangeable lenses have been released.  

You might want to search the site about in regards to converting color captures to B&W.  There's been quite a bit of discussion and I haven't seen anyone suggest that capturing in B&W is the best procedure.  Everyone seems to agree that color capture and conversion to B&W while editing is a better procedure.

Plus it keeps your options open.  Maybe you'll accidentally take a color shot that you like.    ::

[Bobtrips]

Reality is in color; the best way to get a good B&W is to learn to see the possible B&W image lurking within the colors without relying on gadgets that at best can give a single pre-canned B&W interpretation that may not be all that great.

Sorry, don't agree with you here.  Your's is more of a "If my camera doesn't have it, you don't need it." answer.

The easiest way to learn anything is for the learning process to be as easy as possible.  If one can look at the world in black and white one will start to see what works in black and white.

And if the camera software doesn't do the best of jobs with the conversion that it sends to the viewfinder, it doesn't matter.  As long as the actual capture is in color you can "make" the best B&W from the picture that you took with editing.

[Bobtrips]

So Johnathon,  how would you teach someone to 'see' in B&W?

[Doug]

So Johnathon,  how would you teach someone to 'see' in B&W?

OK, I ain't Jonathon either, but try this:

1. Open your color images in Photoshop.
2. Choose the menu Image --> Adjustments --> Channel Mixer...
3. Make sure "Preview" is checked, then click the "Monochrome" checkbox to render the image in grayscale.
4. Note how the color image translated to grayscale.
5. Start playing with the Red, Green, & Blue sliders to see how the color channels in the color image affect the black & white image.

By the way, many photographers consider this the ideal way to convert a color image to B&W.

Enjoy!

[Jonathan Wienke]

So Johnathon,  how would you teach someone to 'see' in B&W?

The channel mixer is a good place to start. Take some of your color images, open the channel mixer, check the Monochrome box, and start playing with the sliders and looking at the results. After a while, you'll start noticing things like reducing the blue channel and increasing the red and green channels (the digitil equivalent of an yellow/amber filter) will "cut through" haze obscuring distant mountains and bring out the texture of the peaks. It also can darken the sky for a dramatic effect. I could go on, but you get the idea.

When shooting with B&W in mind as the end result, ignore color, and focus your attention on composition and exposure. Choose your framing so that you have an interesting composition, and expose so that you aren't blowing any non-specular highlights. Then start experimenting on the color image with the channel mixer, or better yet, theimagingfactory.com's Convert To B&W Pro. You will discover endless possibilities with B&W; it's kind of like being able to retroactively try many different kinds of B&W film and colored filter combinations on a particular shot to see what works the best. After a while, you will be able to look at a fence and "see" what some of the B&W possibilites are if you crank up the red channel, or use mostly green, etc.

[RalphC]

What we need now is to have the EVF display and capture de-linked so that one can see in B&W, capture in color, and do the actual conversion later with editing.

I'm not sure I agree.

That capability is already available in monochrome viewers that will work with any camera, film or digital. Just whip it out of the camera bag and hold it in front of your eye. Of course, you look really cool if you keep tethered around your neck.

But we are not really talking about just seeing the grayscale image, which is often dreary and lifeless, what you want is to see the "potential" of B&W. Good B&W images seldom come from a straight conversion to monochrome. They require substantial manipulation. We used to do that with filtration, both in the camera and enlarger, or with other darkroom techniques. A similar process is still required but is now done in post-capture editing.

While an affordable EVF display might get you a grayscale image, it really doesn't get you much closer to the image you will likely want. That only comes with understanding how color translates to B&W and what your options are for manipulating the captured image.

Just my $.02