Monitor Shopping...Adobe RGB or sRGB?

[CarolynC]

Hello.  I'm new here and also a newbie to color management.  I've been trying to wrap my brain around all of this for the past couple weeks so please forgive my ignorance on the subject.  I have a MacBook Pro (10.6) and for the past month have been trying to get my prints to match what I see on screen...it's not happening.  I bought an Eye-One Display 2 and calibrated a ton of times and no matter how hard I tried, I could not get good screen-to-print matches on the majority of my images.  I've been reading everywhere laptops are terrible for getting good calibration so in the past few days, I've been looking around online to see which external monitor I should buy.  Money is tight right now and my budget is $1000 and under.  I don't even know if I necessarily need an $800 or $900 monitor or if I could get away with something even cheaper.  I have several questions but I guess I'll just take it one question at a time.  First one...

I just automatically assumed I should get a monitor that displays Adobe RGB.  I've read online that Adobe RGB is better for printing than sRGB.  I've been asking a couple questions in a different forum and someone mentioned I might want to stick with an sRGB monitor because some Adobe RGB monitors have trouble displaying sRGB.  I'm not sure which I should go for and am hoping some of you can guide me to what kind of monitor (in regards to this color space issue) would suit my situation better.  I do like to alter colors a lot in my processing, I do nature shots mainly, like flowers and also landscapes...that kind of stuff.  I read that with Adobe RGB, you get a wider array of colors and thought with the way I like to process stuff, I should get a monitor that displays Adobe RGB...maybe that way the prints I get from the lab will actually show the colors and tones that are on my screen in my images.  (although sRGB might be just as good, I have no idea since I couldn't get any good matches on this laptop)  My goal here is to start selling my fine art photography online so as best I can, I want very accurate prints as far as color and everything goes but also accurate images for the web that will show the customer how the final print will look.  So I've been thinking, get an Adobe RGB monitor, export in Adobe RGB for printing (WHCC accepts that color space) and then just export sRGB's for the web.

So what do you think?  A monitor that displays Adobe RGB or just plain old sRGB?  Again, I'm clueless about this stuff and just really want some advice from people who know better what I need.  I don't want to buy the wrong thing.

By the way, the past few days, I've been looking at NEC monitors that display Adobe RGB.  BUT then I start wondering do I really need that?  Could I do this successfully with a monitor that only displays sRGB?

I can't wait to hear some advice on this.  I'm feeling kind of lost right now.  Oh and I shoot exclusively in RAW.

Thanks!
Carolyn  

[Czornyj]

Take NEC PA241W or PA271W - they both have 3D LUT so even if you wouldn't like working with wide gamut display, you can swich it to sRGB simulation mode with one button.

Or - if you're still not convinced - you can buy NEC PA231W, that's normal gamut display.

I sincerly belive the PA series displays are nowadays the finest displays for color critical applications on the market.

[digitaldog]

You shoot raw, presumably you’ll use as much of that data to print and you’d like to view as much of the rendered data as you can, so yes, go wide gamut and yes, go NEC (as suggested by Czornyj).

Keep in mind that calibrating a display per say, doesn’t ensure a screen to print match! Its how you calibrate the display, the calibration targets you ask the software to provide that counts. The numbers you ask for have to be those that produce a visual match. This week I taught a calls on color management in Santa Fe, they had a GTI viewing booth with dimmer, NEC 2690’s. Once we built a good profile for a print and setup the soft proof (using the simulate options), popped that into the viewing booth, it took a few rounds of tweaking to get a visual match but we nailed it. From experience in my office, I knew that 150cd/m2 with the GTI booth set to 50% produced a good match of the luminance. We did have to play around with the white point. D66, too cool. D55, too warm. In the SpectraView software, you can enter any correlated color temp value in kelvin. After a few more rounds of playing with various values, at CCT 5750K, we got a very good visual match. So calibrating a display is only one step. Calibrating it to produce a match to the print just takes some seasoning to taste.

[CarolynC]

Thanks to both of you for the input.  Adobe RGB it is!  I think when someone on a different forum told me that I might have trouble viewing sRGB on an Adobe RGB monitor, I got "scared" but I like the sound of being able to turn off Adobe RGB if I wanted with the PA241W.

A couple questions... I already have an Eye-One Display 2.  Could I use that with SpectraView software or am I going to need the NEC puck?  I read on NEC's site...

"The NEC/X-rite iOne Display 2-based colorimeter features factory custom calibration for improved color accuracy for NEC wide gamut displays when used with the SpectraViewII software."  

Would it be worth shelling out more money for their Eye-One puck (if it is infact better somehow) instead of using my regular old Eye-One?  Someone already told me on another forum my Eye-One Display 2 will not work with SpectraView II but I just want to confirm this before going ahead and buying their version.  What do you suggest I do?

Keep in mind that calibrating a display per say, doesn’t ensure a screen to print match! Its how you calibrate the display...

It's good to know this forum is here if I need help with calibration once I get the monitor.

[digitaldog]

You can use the i1Display-2 colorimeter you have but the one you get optionally with the NEC is a custom mated unit that has filters for this wide gamut display. You’ll get more “accurate” white point measurements. That said, since I suspect you’ll have to season to taste to get the visual match, I don’t know if this is a big deal. If you didn’t have a colorimeter, I’d recommend you get the NEC OEM’d unit. But you have a colorimeter so stick with that. You DO need the SpectraView II software to calibrate and profile that display, I think that’s a $99 option.

[CarolynC]

You can use the i1Display-2 colorimeter you have but the one you get optionally with the NEC is a custom mated unit that has filters for this wide gamut display. You’ll get more “accurate” white point measurements. That said, since I suspect you’ll have to season to taste to get the visual match, I don’t know if this is a big deal. If you didn’t have a colorimeter, I’d recommend you get the NEC OEM’d unit. But you have a colorimeter so stick with that. You DO need the SpectraView II software to calibrate and profile that display, I think that’s a $99 option.

Thanks Andrew.  So you're saying I'd get more accurate white point measurements initially with theirs but with a little extra tweaking I'd be able to get just the same "accurate" white points with my Eye-One?  I guess I still feel a little confused when I read their unit has "filters for this wide gamut display."  I don't want to miss out on something that would make this process easier for me since I don't understand some of this stuff but at the same time, it is more money.  Hmm...

[digitaldog]

So you're saying I'd get more accurate white point measurements initially with theirs but with a little extra tweaking I'd be able to get just the same "accurate" white points with my Eye-One?

I’m saying that you’ll probably have to enter values to result in a visual match. The values are not all that important, the match is. If you have a colorimeter, just use it and adjust to get the match. Even with the custom mated filters, you’d have to do this.

Bottom line: you have a colorimeter that the software supports, use it. You don’t own one, buy the custom mated unit.

[CarolynC]

I’m saying that you’ll probably have to enter values to result in a visual match. The values are not all that important, the match is. If you have a colorimeter, just use it and adjust to get the match. Even with the custom mated filters, you’d have to do this.

Bottom line: you have a colorimeter that the software supports, use it. You don’t own one, buy the custom mated unit.

Oh ok, I think I just needed to hear what you said about entering the values.  That puts me at ease hearing you explain that.  Again, I feel pretty clueless about this stuff.  I hope I didn't make it sound like I was second guessing your expertise.  I really trust your advice.  Thank you!

[WombatHorror]

Thanks to both of you for the input.  Adobe RGB it is!  I think when someone on a different forum told me that I might have trouble viewing sRGB on an Adobe RGB monitor, I got "scared" but I like the sound of being able to turn off Adobe RGB if I wanted with the PA241W.

A couple questions... I already have an Eye-One Display 2.  Could I use that with SpectraView software or am I going to need the NEC puck?  I read on NEC's site...

"The NEC/X-rite iOne Display 2-based colorimeter features factory custom calibration for improved color accuracy for NEC wide gamut displays when used with the SpectraViewII software."  

Would it be worth shelling out more money for their Eye-One puck (if it is infact better somehow) instead of using my regular old Eye-One?  Someone already told me on another forum my Eye-One Display 2 will not work with SpectraView II but I just want to confirm this before going ahead and buying their version.  What do you suggest I do?

It's good to know this forum is here if I need help with calibration once I get the monitor.

Heck, you can see sRGB images more true to life on the wide gamut (note NOT AdobeRGB, since they have both a larger gamut in many areas than AdobeRGB and slightly smaller for intense yellow-greens) than on a standard gamut display since most standard gamut displays don't even have a large enough gamut to cover sRGB! (even if they are reasonably close)

Plus the NEC PA have brilliant sRGB emulation modes so for stuff like movies/games/tv/internet not using Firefox/etc. everything will be fine if you just switch from native mode to sRGB mode.

Your i1D2 will work with their software, however the i1D2 is known to have horrendous copy to copy variation while the custom NEC versions appear to have been very carefully calibrated to standard. Honestly I would go for the custom NEC puck otherwise you might end up with a result even worse than just using the monitor presets.

[CarolynC]

the i1D2 is known to have horrendous copy to copy variation while the custom NEC versions appear to have been very carefully calibrated to standard.

Thanks for your input.  What is copy to copy variation?

[Rob C]

Carolyn, my heart bleeds for you. I sweated the same sweat some years ago, thought I understood it in the end, and was able to get b/w prints to match the screen pretty well. (Fortunately, I love b/w more than colour for prints.)

I ended up with a LaCie 319 which I am using right now, and it seems pretty nice, but that's subjective because the only other decent monitor I ever had was a Mitsubishi CRT which I also loved; an earlier one was bundled with an old Mac my daughter gave me, and then I had an HP laptop.

But, having the screen colours match the print colours, you need to have much more information to hand and end up in the world of paper profiles etc. that can (did) send some of us mad. Shame flowers don't look that great in b/w... Then there seem to be problems with different brands of ink. A friend uses Epson printers/inks for his work and he gets great reds; I use an HP B9180 which gives (me) great b/w, as I mentioned, but lousy reds. I can never get the brilliance and it ends up a sort of terracotta look, which would be great were I shooting tiles. And yes, I know that a pic seen via transmitted ligh is much brighter than one seen via reflected light.

In short, I came, reluctantly, to accept a compromise. Which translates: I avoid red in the shots I expect I might want to print.

Others will tell you WTSIWTG, but I wonder (always allowing for the possibility that I'm just not cut out for this side of the business at all).

Buena suerte

Rob C

[Morris Taub]

You shoot raw, presumably you’ll use as much of that data to print and you’d like to view as much of the rendered data as you can, so yes, go wide gamut and yes, go NEC (as suggested by Czornyj).

Keep in mind that calibrating a display per say, doesn’t ensure a screen to print match! Its how you calibrate the display, the calibration targets you ask the software to provide that counts. The numbers you ask for have to be those that produce a visual match. This week I taught a calls on color management in Santa Fe, they had a GTI viewing booth with dimmer, NEC 2690’s. Once we built a good profile for a print and setup the soft proof (using the simulate options), popped that into the viewing booth, it took a few rounds of tweaking to get a visual match but we nailed it. From experience in my office, I knew that 150cd/m2 with the GTI booth set to 50% produced a good match of the luminance. We did have to play around with the white point. D66, too cool. D55, too warm. In the SpectraView software, you can enter any correlated color temp value in kelvin. After a few more rounds of playing with various values, at CCT 5750K, we got a very good visual match. So calibrating a display is only one step. Calibrating it to produce a match to the print just takes some seasoning to taste.

I'm wondering, what about 'contrast ratio' when you're using this kind of setup, is there a standard?...I remember reading Sean Reid suggested 250:1 but he was using a NEC 2490 monitor...

thanks...

[digitaldog]

I'm wondering, what about 'contrast ratio' when you're using this kind of setup, is there a standard?...I remember reading Sean Reid suggested 250:1 but he was using a NEC 2490 monitor...

You’d build as many as you desire with the NEC software, based on the print media. A glossy paper might be around 300:1, a matt maybe 200:1. YMMV. But you can create many different target calibration aim point as you wish, load in the software with the matching profile loading on the fly.

[Morris Taub]

You’d build as many as you desire with the NEC software, based on the print media. A glossy paper might be around 300:1, a matt maybe 200:1. YMMV. But you can create many different target calibration aim point as you wish, load in the software with the matching profile loading on the fly.

ok, thank you...

[WombatHorror]

Thanks for your input.  What is copy to copy variation?

one copy might read something that should be .300 as .301 and another read it as .315 and another as .293, and another as .285 etc.
while something with less copy to copy variation most probes might give .300+/-0.004 instead of like .300+/-0.015 as above

supposedly the i1d2 and spyder3 have a fair amount of copy to copy variation (some say that recently spyder3's have had a lot less copy to copy variation than before)