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Author Topic: New Phase Camera Body, Back and Programs in the Works...  (Read 30643 times)

bcooter

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Re: New Phase Camera Body, Back and Programs in the Works...
« Reply #80 on: October 15, 2010, 12:42:44 pm »


This is about marketing  . . . right? 

Since this thread started out as a link to an article about a phase one camera that is not in production yet, with no specifics on features, delivery or costs you have to assume it's just marketing, a way to keep the buzz going.

I don't know about most photographers but I'm curious, does this move anybody to buy anything, or consider phase over some other brand based on  conjecture?

I find medium format strange, or at least some medium format companies.   I get the feeling they're driving down the road looking in the rearview mirror rather than the windshield.   Every now and then they stop the car and say, hey we're gonna be real good real soon.  then get back in the car and drive looking in the mirror. 

No photographer, ad agency or client will admit or even propose they want their images to be cheap looking or lacking in quality, but once again they will demand  their images to be still, to be moving, to be good and be faster, less expensive, and oh yea better than before.

That's the view from the windshield and whoever makes equipment that works with that view will prosper, those that don't will keep on marketing.

When I see these articles on the "new" Phase, the  HY6, the Pentax (which took about 5 years), the Canon rumors of a larger format it means nothing to me, because it's nothing I can use today.   Actually it kind of pushes me away from a brand because I don't believe it till i've seen it and even if I do believe it I don't have time to wait for it.

No knock on Phase because they all do it, but let's get real, this thread has almost come to blows mostly with a few Phase defenders that are rabid about microns and "superior image quality" though hardly anybody talks about or shows photography.

To me, it just seems like cheap marketing and to anyone pushing a specific brand if your not getting paid for all that public loyalty,  you should submit and invoice for services rendered. 

But since this whole thread is either a defense or rebuke of a marketing effort, If I made a very expensive cameras, I think I would align myself with expensive looking images and place a ban on marketing images of brick walls, alley's, rainy streets and snapshots.

Let the pictures do the talking, because that's what pictures are for.

I strongly suggest looking at the way Hasselblad markets, because they kind of get the idea that expensive cameras are good for making expensive looking photographs.

Today I opened my e-mail box to the usual 395 messages, mostly spam about deals, offers, lower cost studio rental, apprentices that would love to work for free and a few dozen companies from the Ukraine that want to improve my sexual performance.

Anyway, from the three medium format players was a leaf ad of the 80mpx back stuck on a old V system, a Phase One software tip (I think) and a link to the new Hasselblad Victor magazine.   I tossed everything but the blad link and opened up Victor.

Now this I understand because it's not just about a camera, or a light or a software seminar, it's about really pretty pictures from very good photographers.  So pretty that it makes me want to buy a blad and no offense to anyone, but today I don't need to buy any new still cameras, so if showing pretty pictures can move me to consider a purchase, then I think that might be a good plan for all the companies.

IMO, Hasselblad pretty much gets it.  They're not showing a 4 page spread of a camera to come, they're showing real photographs, produced beautifully from their current cameras and even using photographs shot with strobe and high sync (which is something they've had for a long time). 

Pretty pictures.   

That's what get's my blood flowing, not talks about microns, quotes about whose driving what ship, or the last three days to save 30% on software, or protect 90% of your camera investment. 

Trust me, don't invest in cameras . . . use cameras.

BC


P.S.   Just a suggestion to the Hasselblad Company.  Stop that silly consuming log in procedure to view Victor.   Just make it an e-mail address and send the link to everyone in the world, not just photographers, but clients, ad agencies, designers, anyone in the communications and arts industries (which pretty much means everyone).  Keep the brand name going and make it a household word.  Also give the contributors some reason to be published in the magazine rather than peer gratification, because after all photographers have to market too.

IMO.
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Rob C

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Re: New Phase Camera Body, Back and Programs in the Works...
« Reply #81 on: October 15, 2010, 02:07:46 pm »

Well, Rob, there you go, I hadn't realised that I had something in common with Nicolas Sarkozy.


There you are, then; give Greece a rest and visit Nickie's France again instead! But wait until the strikers are done, until the spring comes around and the world takes on a fresh glow! You could even take Hot Minnie!

;-)

Rob C

MrSmith

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Re: New Phase Camera Body, Back and Programs in the Works...
« Reply #82 on: October 15, 2010, 04:15:41 pm »

some real sense there from bcooter.
made me think of a marketing email from one of the lists people (bikini/File-FX/agency access) it had a model i had seen in person the previous week holding a camera in that way non-photographers do. i just can't take that cheap advertising seriously.

i have no interest in vaporwear either. show me the camera and the software and i'll think about how it makes my life easier  and how long it's going to take to pay for itself and i make some money. 

most of the photographers i know are shooting with 'old' tech p45's etc and this is for advertising/design up to 98sheet.
why waste another 15-20k on a back that isn't going to get you any more work?
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David Watson

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Re: New Phase Camera Body, Back and Programs in the Works...
« Reply #83 on: October 15, 2010, 04:24:47 pm »

Quote from bcooter

"I strongly suggest looking at the way Hasselblad markets, because they kind of get the idea that expensive cameras are good for making expensive looking photographs."

Very loud applause - this is exactly what it is about. Well said. 
 :)
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David Watson ARPS

pcunite

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Re: New Phase Camera Body, Back and Programs in the Works...
« Reply #84 on: October 15, 2010, 04:35:35 pm »

I don't know if it would be possible, or even permissible by the community... just thinking out loud here...

I would like to see a forum/website that to be a member you must use your real name, have a website, and to be allowed to join one must pass entrance by member voting. What brand of camera is irrelevant. Most discussions would be about finding talent, assistants, getting new work, image critic. A real club of people dedicated to helping each other. It might only be 2,000 people, but the best in the industry. Non-photographers (guests who are browsing) are not allowed to view certain sections of the site.

Never would a person feel unwelcome because they are not doing much work, or can't afford this or that. All based on talent for entrance. The cool thing? All haters would be left out, gear discussions would be realistic, and best of all new ideas for your particular market, which does not hurt others, could be shared.

Forums like DPreivew, LL, POTN, have good people present, but there is a real fear to come forward by some professionals because of all the haters present. That is why I keep myself anonymous. I produce new work every week, but I don't want a bunch of bozos commenting on the imagery and it getting back to the client. Sometimes the work I do is very much like Kirk Tuck's for example, not really all that glamorous but I would like to share and find like minded people to chat with. I would like to ask real questions on gear for specific situations and know I am not going to get a dealer or shill, or worse amateur telling me I need to spend $30K to get to the next level to take care of my client. I'm an artist after all, not a scientist, but $30K is not the answer for improving an image and getting more work.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2010, 04:53:44 pm by pcunite »
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Joe Behar

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Re: New Phase Camera Body, Back and Programs in the Works...
« Reply #85 on: October 15, 2010, 05:06:30 pm »

I would like to see a forum/website that to be a member you must use your real name, have a website, and to be allowed to join one must pass entrance by member voting.

Slippery slope....

I'm all in favor of using real names.

The website idea is a non issue, I think, as they are so easy to do these days.

The real trouble point is...who votes to accept members? Who starts off as a member before there are enough to vote in new members?

Last, but not least, how many here would be willing to pay for such a site, and how much would you be willing to pay? Lets face it, a site and business dedicated to full time working photographers needs to make money too.

It does not sound like you want dealers or advertising, so the money would have to come from membership dues only.
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pcunite

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Re: New Phase Camera Body, Back and Programs in the Works...
« Reply #86 on: October 15, 2010, 05:23:41 pm »

Slippery slope....

The real trouble point is...who votes to accept members? Who starts off as a member before there are enough to vote in new members?

It does not sound like you want dealers or advertising, so the money would have to come from membership dues only.


Yes, there is slippery slope, but the alternative is what we have now... there is nothing to bring out people like me into real discussions. We need a little bit more protection from the public. Endless debates about things that don't matter is all that is left. As far as the cost of the site, forum software is a one time $300, a domain name is $30/year, and a hosting package suitable for 2,000 photographers would run about $150/month. So $5 bucks a year would cover the costs.

I am close to just giving up on all this online forum non-sense. Nothing is learned here, all we do is bash each other and our gear. Yet deserving new people don't learn proper technique about image making (of which the camera is irrelevant). All very sad I think.
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pcunite

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Re: New Phase Camera Body, Back and Programs in the Works...
« Reply #87 on: October 15, 2010, 05:32:23 pm »


What bugs me most are armchair photographers offering opinion on anything and everything, people who believe their own choices are the only valid ones and gear-heads in general. Get rid of this bunch and I'll join anything, if invited.


I know what you mean, and I might add some are shills. Would it not be cool to have a forum filled with people like yourself, bcooter, TMARK, eronald, RainerV, BernardLanguillier, John-S, etc... I could go on, forgive me if I left anyone out!!!

People who have a history of posting sensible statements and are making images, not pushing gear? I am so sick of gear. I'm sick of thinking about gear, recommending it, waiting for manufacturers to get their act together, and feeling like I need to save up and get that red Hasselblad just to be accepted. I say all of us get together and revolt, make our own site!!! We can figure out how to let people in, voting them in does sound a bit Bohemian Grove'ish.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2010, 05:34:32 pm by pcunite »
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Joe Behar

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Re: New Phase Camera Body, Back and Programs in the Works...
« Reply #88 on: October 15, 2010, 05:34:01 pm »

As far as the cost of the site, forum software is a one time $300, a domain name is $30/year, and a hosting package suitable for 2,000 photographers would run about $150/month. So $5 bucks a year would cover the costs.

So for an almost fulltime job of administering a website like this, the lucky owner would make a grand total of less than $8000 per year.....assuming he/she could get 2000 members.

I'm not trying to rain on anyone's parade, and I've often thought of setting up a professional photgrapher online community, but I gotta feed the wife and kids :)

Here's a question, and maybe we should do a poll to find the answer. How many people here would be willing to pay, say, $50 per year to be a member of a tightly regulated online community that would cater to strictly the full time photographer?
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pcunite

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Re: New Phase Camera Body, Back and Programs in the Works...
« Reply #89 on: October 15, 2010, 05:47:46 pm »

Here's a question, and maybe we should do a poll to find the answer. How many people here would be willing to pay, say, $50 per year to be a member of a tightly regulated online community that would cater to strictly the full time photographer?

I would gladly pay that *if* the forum was filled with persons like yourself, I had protection from the public in certain categories, and other members truly shared new work weekly. Kindness was legislated, we had a real critiquing section. Cool stuff could happen like... imagine I get an offer from an ad agency that turns me down, I could alert others. You know, a real team of photographers across the globe who are not paid patsies by gear manufactures.

$50 is worth it to be to learn and grow in a safe environment, not filled with newbs, or potential clients. I know that sounds conflicting. I am referring to growing to the next level, refining my talent. I want advice from people who really know what they are doing and don't have agendas. We all get new ideas that we can apply to our local markets.

I'm pretty scared to show some of my really creative work and ideas for fear it will just get ripped off. If a safe environment, 'Joe' poster could say "Hey PC, mind if I use your idea like this for this ad? I will change it around like so". And I will be like "cool, Joe, yeah I love your work, make some money over there in LA with that. don't forget to flag the left side cause it was doing this and that for me."
« Last Edit: October 15, 2010, 05:52:58 pm by pcunite »
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pcunite

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Re: New Phase Camera Body, Back and Programs in the Works...
« Reply #90 on: October 15, 2010, 05:48:24 pm »

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rogan

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Re: New Phase Camera Body, Back and Programs in the Works...
« Reply #91 on: October 15, 2010, 06:54:12 pm »

I don't know if it would be possible, or even permissible by the community... just thinking out loud here...

I would like to see a forum/website that to be a member you must use your real name, have a website, and to be allowed to join one must pass entrance by member voting. What brand of camera is irrelevant. Most discussions would be about finding talent, assistants, getting new work, image critic. A real club of people dedicated to helping each other. It might only be 2,000 people, but the best in the industry. Non-photographers (guests who are browsing) are not allowed to view certain sections of the site.

Never would a person feel unwelcome because they are not doing much work, or can't afford this or that. All based on talent for entrance. The cool thing? All haters would be left out, gear discussions would be realistic, and best of all new ideas for your particular market, which does not hurt others, could be shared.

Forums like DPreivew, LL, POTN, have good people present, but there is a real fear to come forward by some professionals because of all the haters present. That is why I keep myself anonymous. I produce new work every week, but I don't want a bunch of bozos commenting on the imagery and it getting back to the client. Sometimes the work I do is very much like Kirk Tuck's for example, not really all that glamorous but I would like to share and find like minded people to chat with. I would like to ask real questions on gear for specific situations and know I am not going to get a dealer or shill, or worse amateur telling me I need to spend $30K to get to the next level to take care of my client. I'm an artist after all, not a scientist, but $30K is not the answer for improving an image and getting more work.

great idea but it will never work.
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fredjeang

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Re: New Phase Camera Body, Back and Programs in the Works...
« Reply #92 on: October 15, 2010, 07:49:27 pm »

http://www.pro-imaging.org/
Keith, I visited your website tonight and discovered some of the new ones. Really really good! Beautifull works.
I really enjoy so much beauty on abandoned places, there is a very delicate and refine approach in your visual world and at the same time, I see action, in the sense that you have to reach those places, find them like a (pacific) hunter. There is instinct and beauty. That makes me thing about a balance between Hermes and Afrodite. I like when opposite forces are combined into one element.
Congrats.

Cheers.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2010, 07:57:02 pm by fredjeang »
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Schewe

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Re: New Phase Camera Body, Back and Programs in the Works...
« Reply #93 on: October 15, 2010, 07:55:33 pm »

I am close to just giving up on all this online forum non-sense.

I think you should. Considering you've only participated with about 150 messages since you joined in Oct 2008, I don't think this forum is for you. You seem way over the top regarding your privacy...and to be an anonymous member of this forum precludes you from full participation. Why did you even post in this thread? You want "members" to "vote" on whether or not somebody can join your friggin' club? Really? Are you serious? That's not a club I would want to be involved in (you prolly wouldn't vote me in anyway-what's the quote: I wouldn't want to be a member of any club that would have me?)

You might as well go back to the lurking you were doing...(funny how you seem compelled to look though-kinda like looking at an accident on the highway).
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JohnKoerner

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Re: New Phase Camera Body, Back and Programs in the Works...
« Reply #94 on: October 15, 2010, 10:29:11 pm »

Well Guy, you eyesight must be outstanding then.
Mine is assessed as perfect each time I test it, but yet when I did compare the quality of focus I achieved with naked eyes vs live view using a Zeiss100mm f2.0 at f6.3 for subjects located 100-200 meters away from me, I see a clear difference of average sharpness over 10 frames. This is not a belief, it is a fact for me.
If you did the test also in the context of your needs and couldn't see any difference, then you don't need live view. I wonder if all the photographers who claim they don't need the capability actually did this test or not.
To my eyes, this difference is about the same I see when using the best DSLR lens compared to an average one, both used at optimal aperture.
It is also similar to the difference in sharpness I see when using a best in class tripod as is vs using it weighted down with a 5kg load.
Cheers,
Bernard


Your point on the benefits of Live View is well taken Bernard.

I don't think there's any type of photography that augments even the slightest degree of out-of-focus like macrophotography. Oftentimes, with a live moving subject, I have to hand-hold my macros ... and my focus % is always at its lowest here.

At other times I have used a tripod and focused manually (without Live View)--but I have found that because of the tiny, tiny details of insects and the like (which have features that I can't even see with my naked eye), I still miss perfect focus many times, simply because I cannot fully-see the intricate details of these creatures, until after-the-fact and they're blown-up on my computer monitor.

However, when I use a tripod, a remote shutter release, and Live View (which allows me to blow-up my subject 400% and really see its intricate details to a degree I simply CAN'T with my naked eye) ... and only then do I focus ... my photographs ALWAYS come out sharper and better than they do trying to use my naked eye alone. Always.

I agree with your conjecture, that people who downplay Live View either (1) don't require critically-precise focus and/or (2) have never actually used Live View to where they can magnify their subects and then focus.

I strongly believe that no one who has ever actually done this could possibly argue against the benefits of Live View,

Jack




.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2010, 10:32:33 pm by John Koerner »
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David Watson

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Re: New Phase Camera Body, Back and Programs in the Works...
« Reply #95 on: October 16, 2010, 03:25:11 am »

Thank you Mr Schewe for saying what many of us probably feel. 

While I am saying that can I also remind pcunite that this is a thread on medium format "gear" which given his rabid opinions he should not even be reading.

Anyway where would we (and our professional equipment suppliers) be without the large number of photographers (and yes many of them are not professionals) who can afford and are happy to keep buying the latest so-called gear.
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David Watson ARPS

Rob C

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Re: New Phase Camera Body, Back and Programs in the Works...
« Reply #96 on: October 16, 2010, 04:37:13 am »

I think it's a dream.

The site you think you want (pcunite) already existed: it was formed by another photographer and myself some years ago, in disgust at the way things were going in a site where we previously spent much time. Membership was only by invitation; there was probably no way anyone could just stumble into it.

And you know what? It still didn't work.

You simply cannot legislate for personality. Even people who actually admire one another's work can't see eye-to-eye on major psychological issues that never occur in one's imagination at the moment of extending the magical invitation. Further, the increase of numbers/membership isn't that easy to achieve; you certainly do need a critical mass, which is why LuLa functions as it does; the group we started never did grow very much: who the hell do you know to invite? In my own experience, photographers do not know many other photographers. The reason is simple: we hold hands when we do in order to stop the other guy from picking our pocket. Good relationships only happen with people in different disciplines and in different countries.

Time. Few working guys have it to spare. If they did, they would be better served chasing work rather than sitting at the keyboard moaning about the state of the world. I am a dinosaur; I have been told this and it must be my turn to accept that things change and are going down the tubes. They always were, ever since '60 when I discovered this world, only now the acceleration has gone like gravity: 32ft/sec/sec squared!

Worse, the economy has gone south faster than the photographers! The economy might recover - or not - but a sunken snapper is dead. At  least, he should have discovered that the life isn't for him or he would still be alive, metaphorically speaking.

Stay happy with what you've got here. Some really great people and intelligent conversation if you give it too.

Rob C

BJNY

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Re: New Phase Camera Body, Back and Programs in the Works...
« Reply #97 on: October 16, 2010, 06:13:46 am »

They're instituting real name policy at http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=27544
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Guillermo

Joe Behar

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Re: New Phase Camera Body, Back and Programs in the Works...
« Reply #98 on: October 16, 2010, 07:19:24 am »

I belong to a number of other discussion forums not related to photography and they all have two things in common.

1. I can count on one hand (even after the horrific table saw "incident") the number of times there have been flame wars or personal attacks.

2. They have a real name requirement to join.
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eronald

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Re: New Phase Camera Body, Back and Programs in the Works...
« Reply #99 on: October 16, 2010, 08:32:22 am »

WAHAHAHA ... I got a PM *here* some member of this forum once telling me that I had been blackballed for some private forum :)
Why should I join a forum whose members PM me in such a way?

And most of us here have got banned from at least one of the big public forums for our debating style.

I think the whole point of public debate is that it is public. If someone wants to come here and tell me that I don't know sh*t about color, bravo, bring him on maybe he'ssl teach me something. If someone wants to post interesting images of amazonian ants here, please, let him do it, maybe it will inspire me. If someone wants to gush about Man Ray's surrealistic imagery, no problem.

Surprises, welcome!

Edmund
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