Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5 6   Go Down

Author Topic: New Phase Camera Body, Back and Programs in the Works...  (Read 30723 times)

ondebanks

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 858
Re: New Phase Camera Body, Back and Programs in the Works...
« Reply #60 on: October 14, 2010, 08:38:11 am »

I would regard the 90% trade-in deal as just another variant of the "financial handcuffs" approach.

Once you make the initial big buy-in, you are financially handcuffed to the brand; you would lose more by leaving it, than by staying with it and paying upgrade fees every so often.
They are basically trying to lock in their customer base; prevent future defections.

The only way for the math to work for PhaseOne is if the initial buy-in price is artificially high; and if you look at PhaseOne pricing vs. Hasselblad, Sinar and Pentax, there is evidence for that.

OTOH that can backfire - new customers may dry up, if they baulk at the buy-in price and don't like the idea of the handcuffs.

Anyway: I would massively prefer "feature handcuffs" to financial ones. Despite excursions into a few other systems, I always kept and grew my Mamiya system because I was hooked on its fast, sharp glass and bodies which had the features I wanted - interchangeable viewfinders, T mode, reversible mirror lock up, low light eV ability on the metering prism etc. If this thread has made anything abundantly clear, it's that we are less happy with the features of our MFD systems than we were/are with our MF film cameras and DSLRs. That has to be put right, before we will submit to the handcuffs.

Logged

Doug Peterson

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4210
    • http://www.doug-peterson.com
Re: New Phase Camera Body, Back and Programs in the Works...
« Reply #61 on: October 14, 2010, 09:20:38 am »

Always interesting to hear different views.

One man's "Rewarding loyal customers" is another man's "financial handcuffs".

Also note the statement "Given that technology inevitably becomes cheaper as time" is only disproved my many Phase One introductions. Most recently and notably the P65+ was introduced at $39,990 which a new price high. It's also been the strongest selling model.

Anyway, it's futile arguing. As the end users we will always want to have all the features, the "best possible price", but also be rewarded for staying with the brand if/when we upgrade within the brand. As the mnfr they will always have to balance R+D, marketing, maintaining value for current customers, offering existing customers upgrade opportunities, and offering brand new customers the best possible entry price.

There is no way to please everyone.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Leaf, Cambo, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870  |  Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up
RSS Feed: Subscribe
Buy Capture One at 10% off
Personal Work

Steve Hendrix

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1662
    • http://www.captureintegration.com/
Re: New Phase Camera Body, Back and Programs in the Works...
« Reply #62 on: October 14, 2010, 10:19:40 am »

I would regard the 90% trade-in deal as just another variant of the "financial handcuffs" approach.

Once you make the initial big buy-in, you are financially handcuffed to the brand; you would lose more by leaving it, than by staying with it and paying upgrade fees every so often.
They are basically trying to lock in their customer base; prevent future defections.

The only way for the math to work for PhaseOne is if the initial buy-in price is artificially high; and if you look at PhaseOne pricing vs. Hasselblad, Sinar and Pentax, there is evidence for that.

OTOH that can backfire - new customers may dry up, if they baulk at the buy-in price and don't like the idea of the handcuffs.

Anyway: I would massively prefer "feature handcuffs" to financial ones. Despite excursions into a few other systems, I always kept and grew my Mamiya system because I was hooked on its fast, sharp glass and bodies which had the features I wanted - interchangeable viewfinders, T mode, reversible mirror lock up, low light eV ability on the metering prism etc. If this thread has made anything abundantly clear, it's that we are less happy with the features of our MFD systems than we were/are with our MF film cameras and DSLRs. That has to be put right, before we will submit to the handcuffs.




Well isn't this the case with many system purchases? It's often more affordable to stay with your existing system. I see nothing new here, or specific to Phase One. Let's think in terms of what this means to you instead of - why are they doing this? This policy coincided with price reductions on most of the Phase One digital back product line. So, today a P65+ is $32,990. It's not hard to imagine a P95+ in the future that comes in at $39,990 (the original price of the P65+).

Phase One has traditionally been the most expensive brand and they have been the market leader at that pricing. So I don't see any "artificially high" pricing philosophy either. If a manufacturer sells a product at a higher price than its competitors, and still retains the highest market share, then there is nothing artificial about that. The P65+ was announced two years ago at $39,990. At the time, nothing else was priced anywhere near. And yet, it has been a runaway success. Obviously Phase One's pricing has been based on what the market will yield.

I see this more as a signal that - Hey, we're working on some really cool stuff, but it may take a while. And if you can't wait, and want to upgrade now, you will have (at least some) measure of assurance that your investment will be somewhat protected. It's more than any competitor is doing.


Steve Hendrix
Logged
Steve Hendrix • 404-543-8475 www.captureintegration.com (e-mail Me)
Phase One | Leaf | Leica | Alpa | Cambo | Sinar | Arca Swiss

Guy Mancuso

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1133
    • http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/index.php
Re: New Phase Camera Body, Back and Programs in the Works...
« Reply #63 on: October 14, 2010, 11:35:03 am »

I don't know I kind of like this insurance program.Right now I'm out of the woods since i bought my P40+ almost a year ago. So right now I have no real options with this program, yes I can upgrade but what I can't do is go buy a P40+ today at say 20k than in time buy a P75+ at 29k and only lose 10 percent on the P40+ which gives me a trade up value of 18k and pay the difference between 29k for the new one and 18k for the trade up program. That is 9k for a new back. Now go back to the P40+ I used it for 18 months at a cost of 2k that is a little over 200 a month which is nothing compared to what my P40+ is that I bought a year ago on the used market luckily if I walk away with 13k or so from the 19k that I spent. HELLO I lost 6k in a year. Okay maybe a little more I could get but you see the point. I also have the option in a trade program with a upgrade as well but not at 10 percent of the price paid. Sure there is a catch no question about it you stay within the system as it pays dividends to do so. But if I wanted to switch to Hassy i am still in the same boat as i am today without the program. I would have to sell my system on the used market or jump in Hassy's trade in program. So you jump from one to another and you gain nothing. Now i am a guy that went through 3 backs already so this smells pretty good to me ( admittedly one to many there) but this gives me the option to upgrade when a new back is out and than i have my choice either stay with what I have and let it run off the program list after 18 months or make a move on a new back. Now if I stayed pat after 18 months I am no different than what I am today without the program. Still out here out in the wind with dealing with the used market to sell. For the end user that will continue in this system to me it is a no brainer and actually right now the price of the P65+ and P40+ dropped in price when the Leaf was announced and this program started. Now If I had the money right now maybe a smart time to buy the P65+ in a upgrade path ( Hope Phase is reading) from my P40+ at a good price. I get the buyer protection and than when the ?+ comes out I have a choice on trade up or not.

I just see this as a interesting option for the current users and those that want to buy in and actually a much better path for those jumping in the ring. New Price on a P40+ back I think is 17k. As David pointed out Hassy has similar paths, so this has some merit as others are doing it as well. Go buy a S2 right now and see what you get, Nothing with price protection.

What I think folks forget here is it is a added option without added cost to the program. A P40+ will still cost you 17k to buy today with or without the insurance program. Obviously Phase is doing this to attract new customers which you can't blame them just like us we are out to make money.

My exact numbering maybe off here as to real costs of backs but I think I am real close. Dealers can fill in the blanks on those numbers
« Last Edit: October 14, 2010, 11:43:12 am by Guy Mancuso »
Logged
[url=http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showt

bcooter

  • Guest
Re: New Phase Camera Body, Back and Programs in the Works...
« Reply #64 on: October 14, 2010, 01:58:29 pm »


snip    It's often more affordable to stay with your existing system. snip

Maybe.

I don't know what happens in the markets outside the world of advertisingl photography.    In the amateur world maybe they upgrade every 18 months, in the copy art at the Smithstonian world maybe they need 80 to 90 mpx, In the in-house catalog world it probably makes sense to stay with one camera brand, but in the commercial world I don't know anyone that is buying new cameras the day they are announced.

Early on in digital we all upgraded what seemed like every month,  partly because the economy was cranking, partly because there was a big difference between a 12mpx, a 22mpx and a 30mpx camera, but today it's different and today in the world of money for pictures it's pretty much a given than any camera will reproduce well.

In fact I guess we could all say "hey thanks, my 1ds3, p30+, hd31 works fine today and nobody's complaining". 

We just purposed out and retouched a half frame from a shoot.  The client wanted a more horizontal and it was shot vertical.  Honestly once we started working in post I didn't know if it was a dslr, a 21mpx back or a 30 mpx back because I shot all three during the session.


All I know is we worked in post, got the desired effect, added grain for texture and shipped.    Nobody in the chain ever said anything about original file size, interpolation, etc. etc. etc.  I do know that whatever camera I used was at least 3 years old, probably older and honestly at this stage paid for itself many times over.

So in my view, maybe the phase 90% value plan is good, but personally unless the next line of cameras is just earth shattering, I don't see the point because at this stage cameras are cameras.  I don't think I'd even jump on the next Canon or Nikon unless there is just something I couldn't do without and once again at this I don't know what that would be, (other than raw video).

Personally I think the best news in medium format was when Hasselblad lowered their pricing, especially when they got close to the 10k range.  That's a sensible number and could go a long way to introducing more photographers to larger formats.

It also allows you to keep your current camera, rather than trade it in, because I don't want to be stuck with one brand forever.  Digital changes and sometimes not for the best.  At one point Leaf was the darling of the NY world then came lc10 (oops), finally to be fixed with LC11.

Phase was the stable platform with v3, then came v4 (whew) only to be fixed with v5 and Hasselblad that lagged behind forever with their backs and software finally caught up and in someways surpassed everyone with a larger lcd and finally modern software.

So the 90% thing may work for some but I really think the most important thing is to make a stable, usable camera at a good price.  A price that doesn't make you gulp if it drops ti 1/2 in a year.

That will enlarge (pun intended) the market.

BC



Logged

Guy Mancuso

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1133
    • http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/index.php
Re: New Phase Camera Body, Back and Programs in the Works...
« Reply #65 on: October 14, 2010, 02:35:09 pm »

Maybe.

I don't know what happens in the markets outside the world of advertisingl photography.    In the amateur world maybe they upgrade every 18 months, in the copy art at the Smithstonian world maybe they need 80 to 90 mpx, In the in-house catalog world it probably makes sense to stay with one camera brand, but in the commercial world I don't know anyone that is buying new cameras the day they are announced.

Early on in digital we all upgraded what seemed like every month,  partly because the economy was cranking, partly because there was a big difference between a 12mpx, a 22mpx and a 30mpx camera, but today it's different and today in the world of money for pictures it's pretty much a given than any camera will reproduce well.

In fact I guess we could all say "hey thanks, my 1ds3, p30+, hd31 works fine today and nobody's complaining". 

We just purposed out and retouched a half frame from a shoot.  The client wanted a more horizontal and it was shot vertical.  Honestly once we started working in post I didn't know if it was a dslr, a 21mpx back or a 30 mpx back because I shot all three during the session.


All I know is we worked in post, got the desired effect, added grain for texture and shipped.    Nobody in the chain ever said anything about original file size, interpolation, etc. etc. etc.  I do know that whatever camera I used was at least 3 years old, probably older and honestly at this stage paid for itself many times over.

So in my view, maybe the phase 90% value plan is good, but personally unless the next line of cameras is just earth shattering, I don't see the point because at this stage cameras are cameras.  I don't think I'd even jump on the next Canon or Nikon unless there is just something I couldn't do without and once again at this I don't know what that would be, (other than raw video).

Personally I think the best news in medium format was when Hasselblad lowered their pricing, especially when they got close to the 10k range.  That's a sensible number and could go a long way to introducing more photographers to larger formats.

It also allows you to keep your current camera, rather than trade it in, because I don't want to be stuck with one brand forever.  Digital changes and sometimes not for the best.  At one point Leaf was the darling of the NY world then came lc10 (oops), finally to be fixed with LC11.

Phase was the stable platform with v3, then came v4 (whew) only to be fixed with v5 and Hasselblad that lagged behind forever with their backs and software finally caught up and in someways surpassed everyone with a larger lcd and finally modern software.

So the 90% thing may work for some but I really think the most important thing is to make a stable, usable camera at a good price.  A price that doesn't make you gulp if it drops ti 1/2 in a year.

That will enlarge (pun intended) the market.

BC






Almost every sensor upgrade has had big improvements from 9 micron to 6.8 to 6 and now looks Like the new Leaf which is in just one version at the moment. Now sure LCD's and such have maybe not made the upgrade paths but every purchase I made was for the sensor and they keep improving with better noise levels better moire being less visible and so on. Not mentioned also is the upgrades on bodies and lenses at 50 percent or whatever it is. The point being here is if you walk into a dealers office today plunk your money down you have a extra option down the road that we did not have before. I'm sitting here as well as you with a P30+ and P21+ and my P40+ and have limited options and have two choices sell them used on the market or upgrade them at used market value. This third option gives you 90 percent back in 18 months. Either you say okay I want to upgrade or you don't. The key here as the user is you have a third option. Now given that would you not like to have this option today on your P30+ , I know i would on my P40+. Not that I have to take it but it is there for the taking if you want. Sorry but everything else you mentioned is not really the issue. The point is every manufacturer will keep producing new product to compete in the market with other products. Like it or not it is coming no matter if we want it or not that is the way digital has been for the last 20 years i have been working in it and Canon as you know has followed the 18 month path as well as Nikon I believe regardless they keep coming up with new ones. Not that they are worth a salt but we Pro's are not driving the train here. The hobbyist rule the market share and always will the numbers are staggering on what these hobbyist buy. End of day how to look at this because people walk in and buy everyday new backs and bodies is they get a third option on there purchase and Phase retains customer loyalty just like Hassy does with there programs.

Bottom line we are not driving this ship
Logged
[url=http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showt

fredjeang

  • Guest
Re: New Phase Camera Body, Back and Programs in the Works...
« Reply #66 on: October 14, 2010, 02:49:55 pm »


Bottom line we are not driving this ship
Right!
Is it then because of that that we always have those pre-cambrian's tethered bodies, the target being people with lots of time and money?
Logged

Guy Mancuso

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1133
    • http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/index.php
Re: New Phase Camera Body, Back and Programs in the Works...
« Reply #67 on: October 14, 2010, 05:32:35 pm »

Guy,

I find you're just too close to the tainted bed sheets of the manufacturers, late night taudry escapades.

What I see as JR's success is that the man can show stunning images that honestly feed the soul, his clients know that. Yet he's well versed in what is needed to create those images technically.

When I read your posts, it's microns or nanocrystalline silicon structures (no, I threw in that last bit for hyperbole).

There's a big difference.

It's simple, sell the dream someone else wants, not your own. JR sells the dreams his clients want and his clients' customers want. Phase One, Leica, etc. ad nauseum are selling the dream you want.

What in the hell are you even talking about this is about a insurance program and nothing else. Has NOTHING to do with any shooting whatsoever. This IS about buying GEAR and a insurance program that deals with it. The program gives US you me and the idiot down the street a option when you buy. Jr's success is a whole different topic on the planet no one is even talking about it. And BTW i am a little sick of your little snarky attitude towards me. I work for PAY not from any of these manufactures. Next time you want to accuse me of anything better have your lawyer standing right next to you because my bank account has no Leica, Hassy, Phase or anyones else checks deposited there except my clients which none of these are.

Frankly I view this as a insult and I demand a apology. Next time you talk about anyone better have your facts. It's like a sin to actually like a feature or program. It's a interesting option that unfortunately I can't take advantage of. I wish I could but I have to deal with it like everyone else with used market values.

« Last Edit: October 14, 2010, 05:51:49 pm by Guy Mancuso »
Logged
[url=http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showt

Guy Mancuso

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1133
    • http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/index.php
Re: New Phase Camera Body, Back and Programs in the Works...
« Reply #68 on: October 14, 2010, 06:08:52 pm »

Good glad you got the message. And I'm glad you mentioned the PM in public maybe you'll get it.  Don't ever insult anyone in public without hard facts. Now its your reputation out here not me. Don't bring your argument with someone else in another thread over here which is exactly what you did.

John let me ask since you are so against this is if Canon your brand offered you a program on your 1dsMKIII to give you a 90 percent upgrade path to a Canon 1DSMKIV for the price difference 18 months after you bought the III would you do it and it cost you nothing to do.

Think before you answer that one. Than please tell us the difference. Now i won't be here to get the answer i will be leaving here in a few minutes for a trip.

« Last Edit: October 14, 2010, 06:13:09 pm by Guy Mancuso »
Logged
[url=http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showt

fredjeang

  • Guest
Re: New Phase Camera Body, Back and Programs in the Works...
« Reply #69 on: October 14, 2010, 06:10:29 pm »

...can I make a french joke to cool down the atmosphere a little bit?
« Last Edit: March 30, 2011, 10:19:20 am by fredjeang »
Logged

Guy Mancuso

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1133
    • http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/index.php
Re: New Phase Camera Body, Back and Programs in the Works...
« Reply #70 on: October 14, 2010, 06:17:44 pm »

heu...can I make a french joke to cool down the atmosphere a little bit?

Hey cool as a cucumber. I just don't like to be accused of something that is not true. Been doing this 35 years and I have a lot of friends in this industry and no one will take that from me by accusing me of what this guy was going after.

Logged
[url=http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showt

Nick-T

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 462
Re: New Phase Camera Body, Back and Programs in the Works...
« Reply #71 on: October 14, 2010, 06:18:05 pm »

...can I make a french joke

Is there such a thing?  ;D
Logged
[url=http://www.hasselbladdigitalforum.c

fredjeang

  • Guest
Re: New Phase Camera Body, Back and Programs in the Works...
« Reply #72 on: October 14, 2010, 06:28:08 pm »

Is there such a thing?  ;D
Yes...the french themselves!  ::)

Okay, this is becoming as hot as a virgin panty in front of a Brad Pit's picture.
I wouldn't like to be the cucomber involved...

« Last Edit: March 30, 2011, 10:18:42 am by fredjeang »
Logged

Guy Mancuso

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1133
    • http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/index.php
Re: New Phase Camera Body, Back and Programs in the Works...
« Reply #73 on: October 14, 2010, 06:33:17 pm »

I drink Vodka

Logged
[url=http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showt

fredjeang

  • Guest
Re: New Phase Camera Body, Back and Programs in the Works...
« Reply #74 on: October 14, 2010, 06:44:30 pm »

I didn't know that expression "cool as a cucumber". Like it, it made me laugh. I will integrate in my language options.
"tranquille comme un concombre" in french.
Logged

bradleygibson

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 828
    • http://GibsonPhotographic.com
Re: New Phase Camera Body, Back and Programs in the Works...
« Reply #75 on: October 15, 2010, 12:21:18 am »

 Everything sounds so much cooler in French... 8)
Logged
-Brad
 [url=http://GibsonPhotographic.com

eronald

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6642
    • My gallery on Instagram
Re: New Phase Camera Body, Back and Programs in the Works...
« Reply #76 on: October 15, 2010, 02:57:31 am »

I didn't know that expression "cool as a cucumber". Like it, it made me laugh. I will integrate in my language options.
"tranquille comme un concombre" in french.

that sounds cucurbitatingly unfunny - we need, we want, a real french joke!

Edmund
Logged
If you appreciate my blog posts help me by following on https://instagram.com/edmundronald

fredjeang

  • Guest
Re: New Phase Camera Body, Back and Programs in the Works...
« Reply #77 on: October 15, 2010, 04:14:46 am »

that sounds cucurbitatingly unfunny - we need, we want, a real french joke!

Edmund
Edmund, I tryed but the translation is impossible for my english. I don't really know how to translate cultural codes into english. It probably won't work.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2011, 10:14:37 am by fredjeang »
Logged

Rob C

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 24074
Re: New Phase Camera Body, Back and Programs in the Works...
« Reply #78 on: October 15, 2010, 04:54:07 am »

Keith

No, not at all: he's a politician. That's a whole other league of funny. The only thing you can tell for sure is that he does not place a high value on large breasts.

Rob C

eronald

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6642
    • My gallery on Instagram
Re: New Phase Camera Body, Back and Programs in the Works...
« Reply #79 on: October 15, 2010, 12:21:07 pm »

And he is very appreciative of the surgeon's art :)

Edmund

Keith

No, not at all: he's a politician. That's a whole other league of funny. The only thing you can tell for sure is that he does not place a high value on large breasts.

Rob C
Logged
If you appreciate my blog posts help me by following on https://instagram.com/edmundronald
Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5 6   Go Up