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Author Topic: New Phase Camera Body, Back and Programs in the Works...  (Read 30640 times)

philipmccormick

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Re: New Phase Camera Body, Back and Programs in the Works...
« Reply #40 on: October 01, 2010, 06:04:24 pm »

We aren't, or at least I wasn't.

Live view is very useful and I'd love to have it, but frankly if every shot turned out to be optimal, or exactly as I had planned, I wouldn't bother picking up a camera ever again.

There's a danger that technology is turning an adventure into a process.

Keith, the point is that if you're shooting with say a 56mm x 36mm sensor then the tolerances for focus accuracy/error are tiny, such is the hugely reduced depth of field. Having Live View (with a good enough screen to make it worthwhile, of course) would be enormously helpful here. But only for certain situations and not all the time - it's the old horses for courses thing. I love photography where a certain amount, even sometimes a large amount, of accident comes into play, but I also love other kinds where very precise choices are made regarding focus and you definitely do want exactly as planned. Live view on MFDBs would give us the CHOICE to use it sometimes, sometimes not.
Philip
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uaiomex

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Re: New Phase Camera Body, Back and Programs in the Works...
« Reply #41 on: October 01, 2010, 10:21:54 pm »

I'll chime in here. Yesterday at was at a location shooting a table top product. For certain shot the AD accepted my idea to leave in focus only the name/logo on the platter containing a cake. I used a Canon 45TS counter tilted all the way. After some attemps, everytime I checked for focus accuracy on the logo, I found out that I missed it. Suddenly I had "a stroke of genius". I said to myself: What am I doing? Why I am not using live view to focus? (dumb enough!) Well, I proceeded. After I took the shot, I checked and I got perfect focus on the logo.
Small insignificant story I know, but it clearly describes how useful and simple is live view helping a 30 year experience photographer.
Live view? I wouldn't want to live without it now!
Eduardo
« Last Edit: October 01, 2010, 10:34:56 pm by uaiomex »
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Guy Mancuso

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Re: New Phase Camera Body, Back and Programs in the Works...
« Reply #42 on: October 01, 2010, 10:56:50 pm »

Well you could have shot tethered in the studio. Which actually is better you see the image that your actually going to deliver. End of day it is a nice feature but it is not a mandatory one either. I would like it but I would rather they give me a real LCD to work with.
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bradleygibson

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Re: New Phase Camera Body, Back and Programs in the Works...
« Reply #43 on: October 01, 2010, 11:45:46 pm »

Unless you're not actually in a studio...  (Crazy talk, I know) ;D
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ziocan

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Re: New Phase Camera Body, Back and Programs in the Works...
« Reply #44 on: October 02, 2010, 12:43:41 am »

It is like watching two political parties slugging it out to win public opinion.  Each one scoring points of the other, each one trying to emphasise the benefits of belonging to their clique but mostly slagging off the competition.

The truth is that both Phase One and Hasselblad are great systems and far better than their 35mm competitors in many ways.  Perhaps if they focussed on the benefits that MF offers over the professional 35mm competition they might find that produces a better return for their efforts.

Here we have a knee jerk reaction to Hasselblad's announcements at Photokina with a lot of spin and a lot of promise just like Hasselblad's launch of the HD4-60.  Both companies locked in a dog eat dog fight cannibalising their own market with unaffordable trade-in offers financed by artificially high list prices.

The simple truth is that for serious photographers both Phase One and Hasselblad offer products that are streets ahead of both Canon and Nikon in terms of the quality of the images they can produce.  Having used both Japanese company's products at the top end and found them wanting, for my purposes, I am more than happy with my Hasselblad system.  That is not to say that I would not be equally happy with Phase One because I would.

If I was running either company I would be focussing on the many benefits of MF against top-end 35mm.  There are many more D3X and 1DSMk3 owners to persuade/attack than there are MF owners.

 ???
I own both MF and 35mm, systems and of course they both have strength and weakness, therefore they are used for different tasks.
But a part for image quality of images taken under certain conditions, I can't agree that MF systems are streets ahead of 35mm.
Actually, as a system, the 35mm, are much more complete and can perform most of he tasks of MF, rather than the opposite.

Most of the best paid ADs campaigns and fashion work published around the world, are made with 35mm DSLR.
I guess in term of world wide photographers revenues, even just considering high end work only, 35mm DSLR, beat all MF combined probably 20 to 1.

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ziocan

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Re: New Phase Camera Body, Back and Programs in the Works...
« Reply #45 on: October 02, 2010, 02:32:39 am »

Something just doesn't sit well with me about the new investment protection program. Not to be a party crasher, but the math would have to be so incredibly in Phase's favor to prosper so there's more to it than meets the eye. If someone buys a P65+ for $39K and in 18 months buys the new $39,001 eighty megapixel Phase back (hopefully new design, better screen and 20 more features to actually justify why these are needed by so many working pros, that's another argument all together) and only has to pay $3.9K and change to upgrade, I call B.S. Too much Kool-Aid to drink here.

I truly feel it's thrown out there so current users and owners keep going after the carrot. Nothing else really makes sense. We are talking about an item that costs as much as a car. I don't know any car makers who will sell you a new car after 18 months and buy the prior equal version for only a 10% sale price. I love how dpreview.com uses the word "scheme" in describing the program. That word fits well, has a shifty connotation.

All I can figure is that the margins are getting much higher on the backs along with wealthy hobbyists buying and outpacing pro shooters to be the core reasons for the "50% increase". It's all such an odd business model, constantly a moving target. Around me I see some top shooters who have gone from DSLRs to digital backs to DSLRs as a 5DII, 1DsIII or Nikon D3x as new current king of the hill for commercial work.

Any dealer have the cohones to give the percentage of hobbyists vs working photographers who buy Phase backs? I would really be interested in knowing this little tidbit.

The single biggest life and business lesson I have learned is that it's easier to sell the buyer's dream than your own dream. Digital backs have their place for certain, but what I see overwhelmingly is the insecurity of hobbyists and photographers that is so easily prayed upon by the allure of medium format digital as a holy grail of photography. Content is the holy grail of photography regardless of the tool used to create it. And content comes from our heads.

I greatly enjoy all the images I created while I owned a digital back, but I hated using the digital back, clunky, slow, crappy screen, shitty focus (and no MFDB has the focus of a D3x type of camera so don't even try). And the whole time you can look at a sub $1K camera or phone or whatever and have more enjoyable features that make the process smoother.

Here is my list of innovation in the last 5 years w.r.t. to digital backs:
1) Phase/Mamiya leaf shutter lenses No that already existed 20 years ago with Mamiya 645
2) Sensor + technology allowing a large raw to be recorded as a smaller size raw and actual file dimension No Canon did that well before hand
3) 2-3 years for a vertical grip on Phase/Mamiya 645 No wait Contax and nearly every DSLR has that
4) better screens Don't make me go there
5) Hasselblad's newest focusing design, ding! I honestly think that may be the only innovative thing yet, to fix very old focusing designs.
6) the use of iphones and ipads is at least interesting, but the practicality of adding more things in the chain requires more time and people to make it work or act as tech support
7) physically larger sensors does require due respect, but the hodge podge of sensor sizes is silly. Was only needed in film to get better detail or different lens draw. But the physical sensor sizes are all squashed into a relatively small differential.

The reality is that the sensor is by far the only "new tech" that goes into these cameras now. All the other components are far behind the tech curve with no way of surpassing that curve. So innovation winds up being quite banal.


Never say never, but the only dealers will see my money again are cars and furniture dealers.
DB dealers, hardly so.
Looking at a greatly furnished living room, cooking food in a Boffi kitchen or driving a 6 series, it is much more satisfying than pixel peeping an 80 megapixel image, which would have not make a zick of a difference on the succes of the last advertising campaign, catalogue or cover of Vogue, if they were shot with an older 20/30/40mp back or a DSLR.
Who ever think that a bunch of more megapixel and a fraction of more dynamic range, not mentioning cranky live view on a DB, will make them a 20/30/50 grands a day photographer is totally delusional.
They are looking at the wrong map for finding the path.

« Last Edit: October 02, 2010, 03:45:17 am by ziocan »
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fredjeang

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Re: New Phase Camera Body, Back and Programs in the Works...
« Reply #46 on: October 02, 2010, 05:17:08 am »

I read a lot of the idea here about Live-view for focusing. I can't follow you on this and would join more Guy's philosophy: tether then! if it's all about focus.
Also, Keith statement is spot on: do we really want our gear to think and act for us? Tomorrow smile or sunset detection in MF gear then?
This is not serious.
IMO, live view is really important to get rid-of devices and to avoid distractions, not that much to be focused.

If they could devellop new generations of viewfinders that would be also a great acomplishment.

What is really anoying tether is having the assistant screaming "your are ok or not", that is something extremely ridiculous in the 21th century and having the people watching the screens instead of doing their job.
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Guy Mancuso

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Re: New Phase Camera Body, Back and Programs in the Works...
« Reply #47 on: October 02, 2010, 08:12:08 am »

Obviously we all have different needs on what we want on these systems. The real trick here is what is most important and keeping those manufacturing costs down since we all know we are the ones paying for it in the end. In Phases case what are the most important parts to improve this system. If it is say Live View you know it is going to cost us dearly. Now if it is something like removable finders or the ability to have this feature or not. Well if your happy with the standard finder than your not going to pay for the extra finders as accessories. Key thing here is costs to build are not bad but to buy the parts as a option you will pay but if don't need it than your not paying for the development of it like Live view which everyone gets and gets passed on to use like it or not. Look at Canon/Nikon you have no choice you are paying for it no matter what. Okay so what else better screens that is a given and cheap to do. Bigger and better LCD will we will pay for that and in general we all agree it is worth whatever it takes and for Phase/Hassy/Leaf to stay competitive against the 35mm world they know they have to do it anyway and will most likely be built in the price to survive so it may be a user cost that is just built in to the price and the OEM's may just have to eat those costs. Let say we want wireless tethering. This could be very simple without major costs for the OEM. They could add CF slot for it and offer a CF wireless card which we can buy or not buy. The only thing really needed here is the ability to shoot small jpegs at the same time. That is all firmware to do that so manufacturing costs could be low. Obviously it could be built into the back itself with wireless transmitters. But again maybe everyone wants it anyway. I'll take it for sure.

I think it is the old saying that comes into play here . Be careful what you ask for because in the end WE are going to pay for it. Not to say live view or some of the other needs we want are not valid but how much are we willing to pay when these things are not cheap to begin with. At this point any back we want to buy starts at 10k and ends in the 30k range. Question becomes are you willing to pay a extra 5k say for things that you may not want but others do. That goes for anything we ask to be built into these backs. I know we all scream for these things but when faced with the price how many of us will just back down and either get out or worse switch systems. We have to put ourselves into these OEMS shoes and see how this all plays out good or bad to there customers which is US.

Need 2nd espresso. LOL

BTW good debate and please I am not forcing my opinion on anyone but we have to think on both sides of the fence to get what we need and also keep those costs down for the OEM and ourselves. Bottom line everyone needs to survive here and we already lost a lot in the MF world over the last couple years.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2010, 08:22:28 am by Guy Mancuso »
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bcooter

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Re: New Phase Camera Body, Back and Programs in the Works...
« Reply #48 on: October 02, 2010, 11:50:11 am »

Sorry Guy but that doesn't hold water. The actual cost for Phase on the P backs outside of the sensor should have dropped considerably over the years ................snip.............

It's the sixth year of the same P chassis. I can only assume they are redesigning it now, it not, then someone with more foresight needs to take the helm. I only hope the redesign is truly foreword thinking and not lukewarm. Live view, tilting screen, iPhone screens, wireless, and plenty more should be part of that new design. If not, just lame.


I think Phase got a deal on those little black metal boxes, with a 2" hole for the lcd and 4 slits for control buttons. 

Or they overbought.  You get the feeling somebody wrote the Purchase Order for 65,000, instead of 650 and unfortunately like twinkies, they don't have an expiration date.

Once they get near the bottom of the box, they'll probably come out with a new one, though I fear it will be from the same manufacturer which will have a 2.5" hole.

We know Leaf must have got a deal on those 22 pixel lcd's because those things are never going away even if they make a 180 mpx back.

Hasselblad must have bought their boxes a little wiser because they do change them.
__________________________________________________________

Guy you obviously based a  part of your business model  around associations  with some people that sell and make equipment,  so YOU might pay for it but not that many working photographers rush down to the local  "Specialty Digital Camera, Value Added Dealer" every time somebody announces another 30 mega something.

Most photographers use their equipment  until the paint falls off, or rent and like Ziocan says most really good photographers don't see that much if any difference between version pee something 5 to the next version pee something 6.

Now if the current business model/time line  holds, by the time Phleamam has live view or a real wireless system, Canons will shoot 3d holographs, have built in steady-cams and costs 50 pesos. Hasselblad will have a 14" lcd  though I'm positive Phase will have 12 more megapixels than anyone.

You or any photographer don't HAVE to buy new stuff to stay competitive, at least not new expensive stuff at every announcement  I know because those contaxessss I use shoot the same today as they did 5 years ago, the checks still clear the bank and life goes on.

BC
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Guy Mancuso

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Re: New Phase Camera Body, Back and Programs in the Works...
« Reply #49 on: October 02, 2010, 12:28:25 pm »


I think Phase got a deal on those little black metal boxes, with a 2" hole for the lcd and 4 slits for control buttons. 

Or they overbought.  You get the feeling somebody wrote the Purchase Order for 65,000, instead of 650 and unfortunately like twinkies, they don't have an expiration date.

Once they get near the bottom of the box, they'll probably come out with a new one, though I fear it will be from the same manufacturer which will have a 2.5" hole.

We know Leaf must have got a deal on those 22 pixel lcd's because those things are never going away even if they make a 180 mpx back.

Hasselblad must have bought their boxes a little wiser because they do change them.
__________________________________________________________

Guy you obviously based a  part of your business model  around associations  with some people that sell and make equipment,  so YOU might pay for it but not that many working photographers rush down to the local  "Specialty Digital Camera, Value Added Dealer" every time somebody announces another 30 mega something.

Most photographers use their equipment  until the paint falls off, or rent and like Ziocan says most really good photographers don't see that much if any difference between version pee something 5 to the next version pee something 6.

Now if the current business model/time line  holds, by the time Phleamam has live view or a real wireless system, Canons will shoot 3d holographs, have built in steady-cams and costs 50 pesos. Hasselblad will have a 14" lcd  though I'm positive Phase will have 12 more megapixels than anyone.

You or any photographer don't HAVE to buy new stuff to stay competitive, at least not new expensive stuff at every announcement  I know because those contaxessss I use shoot the same today as they did 5 years ago, the checks still clear the bank and life goes on.

BC

Honestly and your right I went through several backs already but I will say in that time I knew it was not totally what i wanted. The P40+ i could hang onto for quite awhile as it is in my mind much better than the P25+ and P30+. And updating the body to a DF was a absolute must have. That shutter lag killed me on previous models. Lens well lets be honest Im a lens whore and always have been. LOL

Daddy like new toys no question but also besides clients needs i do this for me first so being fond of something is somewhat important. I have a 7D here i just bought maybe 3 weeks ago . I shot 10 frames with it, hate it but it does what it is supposed to do when I need it. I'm a firm believer in shooting what turns your jets on otherwise you go through burnout more and all these years doing that i do protect myself from burnout and honestly a new toy helps that as well. Yes i have many associations with actually a lot of dealers , reps and OEMs and i do enjoy those friendships but I do pay full banana as well. These folks help support our workshops with gear to use, demo and see if people are interested in them themselves. We feel folks need to try before they buy. Besides all that like LuLu we like having these folks on the forums. I know Michael and Mark believe it is a benefit to the members as well as we do.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: New Phase Camera Body, Back and Programs in the Works...
« Reply #50 on: October 02, 2010, 12:31:31 pm »

End of day it is a nice feature but it is not a mandatory one either. I would like it but I would rather they give me a real LCD to work with.

In terms of priorities, a good screen does indeed come first and it is obvious that live view only brings value if the screen provides enough information.

Cheers,
Bernard

amsp

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Re: New Phase Camera Body, Back and Programs in the Works...
« Reply #51 on: October 02, 2010, 02:30:28 pm »

It's pretty obvious P1 will release a significantly updated casing with their new lineup, otherwise they would have announced them at photokina. A better screen is given.
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ternst

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Re: New Phase Camera Body, Back and Programs in the Works...
« Reply #52 on: October 02, 2010, 02:48:27 pm »

With Phase One, a better screen is NEVER a given!
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eronald

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Re: New Phase Camera Body, Back and Programs in the Works...
« Reply #53 on: October 02, 2010, 04:19:55 pm »

;D ;D ;D I want to see that! is it going to be a 2" with 150.000 res ?:P

My eyes seem to get older faster than the screens improve :(

Edmund
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gazwas

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Re: New Phase Camera Body, Back and Programs in the Works...
« Reply #54 on: October 02, 2010, 04:59:04 pm »

I've got a P40 on test at the moment and I see this new insurance program they have introduced as an attempt to to pump the R&D fund.

The shameful LCD, pathetic back menu/navigation interface, poor/gritty/sloppy/slippy manual focus feel on all bar the 120 macro, awful 1/125sec flash sync on all bar a very few lenses and a pretty poor rehash of a god knows how old Mamiya 645 camera is shocking IMO.

Thank God the software is first class, glass sharp and file output is sublime because the rest of the package is a bit lame.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2010, 04:35:10 pm by gazwas »
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MrSmith

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Re: New Phase Camera Body, Back and Programs in the Works...
« Reply #55 on: October 08, 2010, 04:11:09 pm »

so i heard a rumour that Phase have an image manipulation program being developed, anyone have any more details?
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gazwas

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Re: New Phase Camera Body, Back and Programs in the Works...
« Reply #56 on: October 08, 2010, 04:31:39 pm »

so i heard a rumour that Phase have an image manipulation program being developed, anyone have any more details?

Capture One is Phases image manipulation program and I can only imagine the rumour you have been told is possibly the next version of the software..... Version 6?

Who knows but I can't imagine its a whole new piece of software but more like an evolutionary refinement.
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MrSmith

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Re: New Phase Camera Body, Back and Programs in the Works...
« Reply #57 on: October 08, 2010, 05:52:43 pm »

i was told there was a large team of programmers working on something akin to photoshop.
i guess time will tell if there is any truth in the rumour.
capture ones colour controls and styles are quite advanced (not forgetting the lens adjustments) so i guess it's half way there :-)
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kers

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Re: New Phase Camera Body, Back and Programs in the Works...
« Reply #58 on: October 08, 2010, 08:39:00 pm »

Now go pick up a Leica R9 and manual focus a R lens. Pretty much dead on each and every time. Why because they use focusing screens meant for manual focusing.

http://diglloyd.com/articles/LeicaM/LeicaM-Lenses.html
quote "The sharpest lenses available for any camera are Leica M compatible, and some highly unusual ones as well, such as the Noctilux-M. But sharpness means nothing without accurate focus."

It seems according to Lloyd chambers that the leica M9 is not capable of achieving accurate focus with some of its best lenses like the Noctulux 0,95 50mm lens. That is a shame..
..and easily solved with Liveview
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David Watson

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Re: New Phase Camera Body, Back and Programs in the Works...
« Reply #59 on: October 14, 2010, 06:20:49 am »

Quote from the Phase One press release:

"90 percent of their original purchase price against any new Phase One digital back launched at a higher price within 18 months of the original purchase date."

Note the comment "at a higher price".  This means that if Phase One brings out a product at a lower price the offer falls away.  Given that technology inevitably becomes cheaper as time goes by (cf Hasselblad's new price structure on the HD4-31 at £8995 inc lens) this trade-in offer is a lot less valuable than it seems and it gives Phase One the scope to introduce their new products at an artificailly high price to "lock in" their existing customer base. 

What we have here in my view is a clever bit of marketing spin.
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