Photokina Blog

[tho_mas]

some misleading information here...:

- the 3 new Schneider TS lenses are not designed for the Phase/Mamiya mount. Only the 120mm is Phase/Mamiya.
The 50mm and the 90mm lenses are for DSLRs in Canon, Nikon, Sony and Pentax Mount.
- the new Linhof head looks of course similar to the Cube but it is not a full blown tripod head. It is a leveling base - you can't turn the camera 90° in protrait mode. But they provide an adapter to do so: http://www.linhof.de/news-1_e.html
- Cambo's WRS is not new. It was introduced at Photokina 2008, so 2 years ago.

[BernardLanguillier]

So the Kina is done.

Considering the announcements done prior to the show, my personal view is that Sony is about the only company out there that has released a truly innovative product with their pellicular mirror cameras. At the same time the lack of news on the FF front raises some questions on their long term investment in the high end segment,

- All the rest belongs mostly to the realm of predictable point upgrades with...
- Canon scoring IMHO worst among the big boys. The D60 is a competent but very boring camera at a uncomfortable price point. The lack of 1dsIV seem to indicate that they have been unable to better Nikon significantly in terms of high end sensor performance that used to be their forte,
- Nikon is also innovating very little, but they seem a bit better at product planning/positioning and are slowly but surely closing the gap in terms of lens line up for pro shooters. The only lenses still badly missing are the 70-200 f4, 300 f4 VR and 80-400 AF-S, which together with the lack of a cheap high res FF body seems to indicate that Nikon is not that interested in addressing right now the serious hobby shooter market segment (well represented at LL but overall pretty small),
- Sigma is still trying to make it with their Foveon sensor, and the S1 has a chance to be an interesting niche if they have not messed up too much with the sensor color noise,
- Fuji seems to be completely lost and their usage of a non Fuji sensor for their retro APS camera probably means the end of their high end sensor developments (a bad news obviously),
- MF remains stuck in its inability to mobilize enough capital to do real R&D and their relative price/performance ratio is increasing faster than inflation in Europe, 33% more pixels is all they are seemingly able to offer. Some MF camera platforms are still alive but also focus on point upgrades (to be fair there is little else they could do). The Hassy Ferrari thing should IMHO be a wake up call for those considering their MF equipment as a valuable long term asset,
- compacts are reaching a clear plateau with little motivation for existing owners to replace their existing toys,
- 4/3 seems to be pretty much dead with micro 4/3 still looking promising, Panasonic looks like the winner there,
- video looked like it could generate a new bubble but the realization of most serious shooters that DSLRs are not optimized for video has IMHO already put an end to this trend. Video has become a must have feature that will not generate extra sales but only penalize those who don't have it... again MF doesn't fare very well here,

All in all, I don't believe that this Kina will remain in history as one having contributed much to the development of the photographic art.

Anybody else sharing this feeling?

Cheers,
Bernard

[alainbriot]

Hi Bernard,

"All in all, I don't believe that this Kina will remain in history as one having contributed much to the development of the photographic art."

You mean in the development of the photographic technique or equipment, correct?  I don't see much about art in your list of equipment.

[BernardLanguillier]

Hi Bernard,

"All in all, I don't believe that this Kina will remain in history as one having contributed much to the development of the photographic art."

You mean in the development of the photographic technique or equipment, correct?  I don't see much about art in your list of equipment.

Hi Alain,

How have you been?

Well, yes, I mean in terms of providing new tools that will enable better/more creative photography.

Cheers,
Bernard

[John Camp]

I agree. One of my particular disappointments was Leica, which showed nothing new, announced nothing new, hinted at nothing new, except an absurd titanium M9, now called (by skeptics) the M9-Tit. Some have said that it is beautiful, and it should be, for two-and-a-half times a similarly functional M9. And, of course, it is a tit.

I do like the Nikon D7000 and the new Pentax, which are almost twin cameras, aside from the differences in their image stabilization systems. If the hard-nosed Pentax reviews are good enough, I will be tempted to try it with my pancakes (I no longer have a Pentax body, just the lenses.)

The Fuji, which has put some people in rapture, caused me to yawn. Yeah, it looks like it was made in 1957. So what?

There was some interesting news about the Pentax MF 645 -- and that is, it will apparently be coming to the US, maybe by the end of the year. Unfortunately for me, I have no interest in MF.

Yeah, Canon...(another yawn.) I thought it was already set in stone that a new 1DsIV was coming, and that it would be ~30mp. I would like to know what happened there.

The PK clarified some things for me -- that I've got to get myself sorted out. I'm currently carrying three camera systems (Nikon, Leica and Panasonic m4/3), plus the lenses (Pentax) for a fourth. I think the Leica may be going away, an increasingly easy decision. I think the system has little left for me. I'll probably keep the Nikon, because I've got so much invested in it, as my "heavy" system. I'm then left with the choice between the quite small Pentax, with a system of primes, and the Panasonic. No clue what to do there...it'd be easier if Pentax had any kind of retail presence in the US.

JC   

[Rob C]

"The Fuji, which has put some people in rapture, caused me to yawn. Yeah, it looks like it was made in 1957. So what?"

Only this, John: it is small, carries the focal length probably most useful for a light, walkabout camera and has enough pixels - if good - for the majority of punters that I can think of, excluding only those into the huge gallery formats. If it gives good A3+ prints then what's to induce the yawn?

I certainly wouldn't refuse one, but as far as buying, that's another matter. As with you, Nikon has a big grip on my photographic throat, and another Nikkor would probably be more attractive in the fiscal sense, but you never know!

Rob C

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

Yeah, Canon...(another yawn.) I thought it was already set in stone that a new 1DsIV was coming, and that it would be ~30mp.

Really? Where did you read that, and from what reputable source?

Cheers,
Bart

[John Camp]

Really? Where did you read that, and from what reputable source?
Cheers,
Bart

No reputable source, just the regular internet chatter. Canon has been more-or-less on an upgrade schedule, and if they'd stayed with that schedule, a new camera was due last spring or this fall...Thom Hogan has a comment on this (and other PK matters) on his blog. Canon has sort of made a point of leading out with the upgrades, staying ahead of Nikon...and many people think a new Nikon D4 will be coming in 2011. With no hints from Canon about a new camera, it now appears that they may come out more or less at the same time...

All this is speculation, of course.

JC

[John Camp]

"The Fuji, which has put some people in rapture, caused me to yawn. Yeah, it looks like it was made in 1957. So what?"

Only this, John: it is small, carries the focal length probably most useful for a light, walkabout camera and has enough pixels - if good - for the majority of punters that I can think of, excluding only those into the huge gallery formats. If it gives good A3+ prints then what's to induce the yawn?

I certainly wouldn't refuse one, but as far as buying, that's another matter. As with you, Nikon has a big grip on my photographic throat, and another Nikkor would probably be more attractive in the fiscal sense, but you never know!

Rob C

As far as I can see, the only really semi-novel thing about this camera is its appearance. If you like that, go for it. As for A3+, the m4/3 cameras can do the same thing, and with interchangeable lenses. The small Panasonic has an optional EVF, live view, and an exceptional 35-equiv. pancake...and is smaller. The new Pentax is very small, almost too small for my hands, though marginally bigger than the Fuji, offers a whole line of pancakes, plus a very bright viewfinder, the option to go very long or wide if necessary...etc. So...IMHO the Fuji comes down to looks, and if I want to look at something, I have a Kodak Retina IIc sitting on my shelf... 8-)

JC

[alainbriot]

Hi Alain,
How have you been?
Well, yes, I mean in terms of providing new tools that will enable better/more creative photography.
Cheers,
Bernard

Hi Bernard,
We are doing great, thank you for asking.

In regards to new gear, we may have to better ourselves instead of expecting cameras to better us!

[BernardLanguillier]

Hi Bernard,
We are doing great, thank you for asking.

In regards to new gear, we may have to better ourselves instead of expecting cameras to better us!

Sure, that is a given.

This being said, there are still many ways cameras could be improved to enhance efficiency, streamline workflow, enable better focus on the creative tasks,... and a lot of that is painfully absent from the new equipment being announced during the big Kina fiesta.

I guess that intense press coverage might be driving expectations.

Cheers,
Bernard

[Josh-H]

o the Kina is done.

Considering the announcements done prior to the show, my personal view is that Sony is about the only company out there that has released a truly innovative product with their pellicular mirror cameras. At the same time the lack of news on the FF front raises some questions on their long term investment in the high end segment,

- All the rest belongs mostly to the realm of predictable point upgrades with...
- Canon scoring IMHO worst among the big boys. The D60 is a competent but very boring camera at a uncomfortable price point. The lack of 1dsIV seem to indicate that they have been unable to better Nikon significantly in terms of high end sensor performance that used to be their forte,
- Nikon is also innovating very little, but they seem a bit better at product planning/positioning and are slowly but surely closing the gap in terms of lens line up for pro shooters. The only lenses still badly missing are the 70-200 f4, 300 f4 VR and 80-400 AF-S, which together with the lack of a cheap high res FF body seems to indicate that Nikon is not that interested in addressing right now the serious hobby shooter market segment (well represented at LL but overall pretty small),
- Sigma is still trying to make it with their Foveon sensor, and the S1 has a chance to be an interesting niche if they have not messed up too much with the sensor color noise,
- Fuji seems to be completely lost and their usage of a non Fuji sensor for their retro APS camera probably means the end of their high end sensor developments (a bad news obviously),
- MF remains stuck in its inability to mobilize enough capital to do real R&D and their relative price/performance ratio is increasing faster than inflation in Europe, 33% more pixels is all they are seemingly able to offer. Some MF camera platforms are still alive but also focus on point upgrades (to be fair there is little else they could do). The Hassy Ferrari thing should IMHO be a wake up call for those considering their MF equipment as a valuable long term asset,
- compacts are reaching a clear plateau with little motivation for existing owners to replace their existing toys,
- 4/3 seems to be pretty much dead with micro 4/3 still looking promising, Panasonic looks like the winner there,
- video looked like it could generate a new bubble but the realization of most serious shooters that DSLRs are not optimized for video has IMHO already put an end to this trend. Video has become a must have feature that will not generate extra sales but only penalize those who don't have it... again MF doesn't fare very well here,

All in all, I don't believe that this Kina will remain in history as one having contributed much to the development of the photographic art.

Anybody else sharing this feeling?

Nup - just the opposite for me.

I was very pleased with what was announced this Kina - but more importantly was more pleased by what wasn't announced. What we didn't get is far more significant than what we got IMHO. Point and Shoots aside, we didn't get new models of every single camera just for the sake of rushing to market with new models as has so often been the case in the last few years. We got a titanium edition of the M9 which will keep the Leica collectors happy and a few other interesting cameras; but not a massive amount of new camera editions for the sake of it.

I could not have been more glad to see so few announcements from Canon. In case you missed it a few of the announcements they made were big - a new 300mm F2.8L IS MKII, 400mm F2.8L IS MKII, new TC 1.4 and 2x. Also coming will be a new 500mm F4. There are significant improvements in IS in these lens's, a new IS mode and great weight savings pushing these already excellent lenses to new heights.

The lack of a 1DSMKIV shows simply that Canon feels the market does not as yet warrant a replacement and/or that they are working on making the new 1DSMKIV truly innovative (as they have been quoted as saying). The 1DSMKIII is fully the equal of the d3X and since Nikon has nothing new announced why should Canon rush to market? Just to satisfy the naysayers? Not likely. Same goes for Nikon; why announce a D3X replacement when the current model is just fine. It still takes great images.

I am hoping that Kina this year is the start of a new trend in the photographic industry to slow down the release of new models 'just for the sake of it'. I know its wishful thinking! But, that being the case we can all get on with making images instead of worrying about the next silver bullet.

-Edit  

video looked like it could generate a new bubble but the realization of most serious shooters that DSLRs are not optimized for video has IMHO already put an end to this trend. Video has become a must have feature that will not generate extra sales but only penalize those who don't have it... again MF doesn't fare very well here,

Sorry I missed this point and agree with you. Except that I do not consider it a must have feature. In fact, I dont want video in my DSLR's. For me, when I am out in the field and trying to make artwork I cant get my mind into the vastly different set to shoot video. It requires totally different thought processes that I personally find counter productive to still work. At the risk of igniting debate, "Let the video guys shoot video I say and let the still guys do their stuff and never the twain shall meet at the high end of fine art".

[BernardLanguillier]

Nup - just the opposite for me.

Yet, I think that we mostly agree.

Not getting even less appealing point upgrades might good, but still less interesting than getting real ones.

As far as the 1ds3 being equal to the d3x, you are entitled to your opinion on their respective technical value (although that opinion is not backed up by available data, notably in terms of DR), but the number of units sold in 2009/2010 draws a very different picture...

http://nikonrumors.com/2009/11/19/nikons-pro-dslrs-outsell-canons-big-time.aspx

Most businesses would consider that a camera that doesn't sell well needs to be replaced, regardless of the degree of satisfaction of its existing users. Granted, the explanation I proposed above for the non announcement of the 1ds4 is an assumption, but the fact that the 1ds3 works well for you is IMHO not much more solid a reason. Look at it this way, were you not satisfied with your 1ds2? Would you not upgrade to a 30mp 1ds4 if it offered significantly better performance than the 1ds3?

So even if you take the d3x out of the picture, it seems likely that Canon has not been able yet to come up with something that works as well as the 1ds3 while offering better value in key areas like DR. Otherwise, as a business, they would try to make their new body available for purchase as soon as possible both to make money and serve their customers.

Cheers,
Bernard

[Josh-H]

Bernard,

Sorry, but I am not interested in getting into a pissing contest with you about Canon. V nikon. Your insecurities show up in your continual Canon sniping and it's just so old.. Your opinions are just that so go forth and speed your gospel and enjoy.

[BernardLanguillier]

Bernard,

Sorry, but I am not interested in getting into a pissing contest with you about Canon. V nikon. Your insecurities show up in your continual Canon sniping and it's just so old.. Your opinions are just that so go forth and speed your gospel and enjoy.

Josh,

Could this just be your perception of things? You decided to extract a small fragment of a generic post and to blow it out of propositions. If you want to look at my initial posting from a brand standpoint, you'll notice that my praise goes to Sony (a brand I am mostly not using) and that I describe Nikon as being "innovating very little". That is meant to be a very negative comment in a post that focuses on the lack of innovation at the Kina.

I fully understand you not being interested in my Kina analysis, but I find it a bit of stretch to see my comments described as being anti-Canon. They are also anti Nikon, MF,... In case brands matter to you, I am very happy about my excellent Canon S90 and G10. Not everybody thinks in terms of brand Josh.

As far as the 1ds4 goes, you must know that it was a camera that was widely expected to be announced at this Kina. You might not be disappointed by the lack of announcement, but in fact I am. Believe it or not, I am genuinely interested in the technological advances and see them as opportunities as a photographer. Whether they come from Canon, Nikon or any other brand. That it what my post was about.

You perception of me trying to run down Canon is totally off the mark.

Cheers,
Bernard

[Mark D Segal]

Yet, I think that we mostly agree.

Not getting even less appealing point upgrades might good, but still less interesting than getting real ones.

As far as the 1ds3 being equal to the d3x, you are entitled to your opinion on their respective technical value (although that opinion is not backed up by available data, notably in terms of DR), but the number of units sold in 2009/2010 draws a very different picture...

http://nikonrumors.com/2009/11/19/nikons-pro-dslrs-outsell-canons-big-time.aspx

Most businesses would consider that a camera that doesn't sell well needs to be replaced, regardless of the degree of satisfaction of its existing users. Granted, the explanation I proposed above for the non announcement of the 1ds4 is an assumption, but the fact that the 1ds3 works well for you is IMHO not much more solid a reason. Look at it this way, were you not satisfied with your 1ds2? Would you not upgrade to a 30mp 1ds4 if it offered significantly better performance than the 1ds3?

So even if you take the d3x out of the picture, it seems likely that Canon has not been able yet to come up with something that works as well as the 1ds3 while offering better value in key areas like DR. Otherwise, as a business, they would try to make their new body available for purchase as soon as possible both to make money and serve their customers.

Cheers,
Bernard

I can't make out what's what on that chart, but if the D3x is outselling the 1Ds3, it is no surprise. The former is newer, has more MP and the quality rating of the sensor from DxO labs gives it a slight edge. In this league, the quality of the lenses one puts in front of the sensors will make more difference to apparent image quality than these minor differences of specs. As a Canon user, I find the Nikon has some attractive features the Canon lacks, but not enough to warrant switching. If I were starting fresh, I too would probably buy either the Nikon or a Leica M9. But I get really sharp photos with my 1Ds3 because my copy of the 24~105 f/4L is really a good one. The 70~300 IS DO is another matter. I'm tempted to change it for the new L model, but it's bigger and heavier and 1500 bucks; so that's life......trade-offs.

There have been many comments here that "not that much new and exciting" by way of camera model up-grades came to this year's Photokina. Perhaps it reflects two things: (1) the hardware is really maturing so it becomes more difficult to break really new ground with stuff that people will actually buy, and (2) the world economic situation apart from several rapid growth countries is so dismal that it takes guts to stake fortunes on new marketing initiatives. Timing is not opportune. My sense from Mark's blog is that we've seen a fair amount of really high-end specialized stuff which caters to a market niche that is rather more "recession-proof", so those products make sense, and continue to be exciting from a purely technical perspective, even though most of us would never own them.

Finally, a great many thanks to Mark Dubovoy for doing what he's done for us over the past few days. Huge trade shows really are exhausting, and providing all these reports and images on top of all the walking, looking and talking is something for which we should be very grateful. It's the next best thing to being there.

[Paul Williamson]

Is it possible that what we're seeing here has more to do with the decreased relevance of in-person trade shows like Photokina in a world increasingly dominated by the internet? Perhaps manufacturers no longer feel obligated to synchronize their release schedules with The Big Show.

[dchew]

Is it possible that what we're seeing here has more to do with the decreased relevance of in-person trade shows like Photokina in a world increasingly dominated by the internet? Perhaps manufacturers no longer feel obligated to synchronize their release schedules with The Big Show.

On the margin I think you are correct.  However, most camera manufacturers market to consumers, but probably don't sell much to them; they sell to dealers and distributors.  Trade shows are still a good place to market, train, and build excitement within the dealer network simply because a good percentage of dealers are in one place.  On the lower consumer-end of products, it might still make sense to release products around shows because those dealers have influence on the consumer who walks into a traditional store not knowing precisely what he/she wants.  For avid amateurs and pros, not much gained because of what you point out; "we" get our information from here and other web sources. Then there is the extreme end of first movers (like Mark?): They are at the show, so it is a great place to reach them with the M9 Tit.

Dave

[Alan Goldhammer]

I found the video that Mark Dubovoy did quite interesting, particularly the part about how he disregards Epson's advice regarding printers.  I would be interested in an piece where he goes into this in more detail, particularly how he arrives at the ink level used in printing (which appears to be higher than the Epson driver/paper settings pump out).

Alan

[Patricia Sheley]

The FotoTV interview with Mark was way too short (selfishly speaking) especially when he towards the end got into his paper "pumping" experimentations... that he would so carefully look to find the  maximums for the various papers and then backing off those parameters slightly to optimize his results I found very interesting...would love to have listened to him so much longer...his passion for printing oozes from all his pores...great stuff...glad it was made available to us...