Datacolor SpyderCheckr released

[feppe]

SpyderCheckr is a 48-patch portable camera calibration target. Here DPreview's scoop from Photokina. Not sure how this differs from ColorChecker Passport other than superficially, but it seems like a similar product.

Here's a nice introductory video showing it and usage.

[keith_cooper]

I've managed to get one to have a look at and have written up a brief review if anyone is curious.

http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/reviews/photography/spydercheckr.html

It's a good solid build and the fade check patch is a good re-assurance if you take it outside much.

I suppose the question many people will wonder, is how it compares to using DNG profiles from Passport?
Quite similar but... I can't authoritatively point to much difference there, since I just don't do much absolutely colour critical photography - for the vast majority of my clients, pleasing colour trumps accurate colour, and I largely work with available light.

[digitaldog]

I suppose the question many people will wonder, is how it compares to using DNG profiles from Passport?

The more important question would be how using a DNG profile versus tweaking sliders affects image processing and the advantages and disadvantages of NOT using a DNG profile.

[keith_cooper]

Please could you just once actually have a look at something from Datacolor before pouring your customary scorn on their products?

I try and look at products from a neutral POV, I don't want to sell stuff or get involved in 'my company is better than your company squabbles'

Anyone with actual experience of the two products like to comment - I come at this having no preconceived favourites... ;-)

[digitaldog]

Please could you just once actually have a look at something from Datacolor before pouring your customary scorn on their products?

Take a stress pill bud and think about this just a nano second will you? There’s a fundamental difference in the processing of raw data with a DNG profile which apparently hasn’t crossed your mind. It should! You’re the guy all about “testing” and writing about this software right? Maybe you should (as I have) ask a few people in the know about what is going on behind the scenes here in terms of building a DNG profile for the task a DNG profile provides versus making a preset of some sliders. There’s zero reason to even touch the product, this is a fundamental question about applying a “correction” if you will, to data in a raw pipeline. Think about it!

[digitaldog]

Please could you just once actually have a look at something from Datacolor before pouring your customary scorn on their products?

Scorn? Not below but thanks for putting words into my mouth. I actually asked YOU to consider the sentence you wrote below (the question many people will wonder, is how it compares to using DNG profiles from Passport?). Its you that should be asking the questions!

[wolfnowl]

The more important question would be how using a DNG profile versus tweaking sliders affects image processing and the advantages and disadvantages of NOT using a DNG profile.

Andrew, can we skip the 'scorn' and elaborate on what you mean here?  I for one rely on the expertise of you and others here with regards to colour management.

Thx,
Mike.

[Schewe]

Andrew, can we skip the 'scorn' and elaborate on what you mean here?

Andrew expressed zero scorn...that was Keith's baggage he's bringing to the table.

In terms of the difference between the Passport and the Spydercheckr software, Passport produces real DNG Profiles that can be used to calibrate for a camera/lighting condition. The Spydercheckr software produces ACR and or Lightroom Presets. Note, ACR and LR share DNG Profiles but NOT Presets–so if you use ACR & LR you'll need to create two separate sets of presets.

There are some limitations to using Presets instead of DNG Profiles. Notably, when you use a preset, you are actually applying an absolute adjustment and once set, it limits the subsequent adjustments leftover after the preset is applied. The Spydercheckr uses the HSL adjustments to do the calibrations so if you want to modify the results, you have to go into the HSL sliders and tweak up to 24 sliders to tune. With DNG Profiles, you have not only the profiles but the entire calibration panel for tweaking and it leaves the entire HSL panel available for color tuning.

I won't put words in Eric's mouth but he has indicated that there are limits to what can be done with color and tone using ONLY the HSL sliders...for example, a DNG Profile can contain a tone curve not only color rendering...but with only HSL sliders, the tone curve has to be applied separately...

I've not actually used the Spydercheckr target (no reason not to think it's fine) and I've only read the manual for the software...but I think the route they went by using setting parameters to do the calibration instead of producing DNG Profiles is wrong and limiting...the whole purpose of DNG Profiles is to do what Spydercheckr is trying to do with presets.

[digitaldog]

Andrew, can we skip the 'scorn' and elaborate on what you mean here?  I for one rely on the expertise of you and others here with regards to colour management.

The ‘scorn’ is all Keith’s <g>. I just asked him a question after reading his “review”. But to answer your question. The DataColor product produces a preset for HSL that is supposed to "calibrate" (quotes in emphasis) the capture. Using HSL controls to perform color adjustments based on a measured target has limitations such as invalidating any HSL presets you have built and like to use. Pick one or the other. Not an issue with DNG profiles. What are users supposed to start with in terms of a DNG profile when using these HSL "calibration" sliders, does one have to stick with that DNG profile from now on? So with the DataColor Product, you essentially lose one set of controls (HSL) where with a DNG profile, you can access HSL on top of the DNG profile. DNG profiles on paper (I'm told) are far more complex in terms of their ability to affect color and tone. They have at least a color matrix and optionally one or more tone curves. There is less control over rendering using HSL than that available within a DNG profile which is table based and provides controls such as affecting selective colors without altering their saturation. The processing order is also different here and may be profound. DNG profiles are applied easily in the raw processing while the data is linear and in its scene referred state. DNG profiles can be built to be dual illuminant (in the Adobe Standard profile, its D65 and illuminant A) and unlike the issues Keith found in his "review", the white balance isn't an issue when capturing the target (we could say that in this stage of processing, DNG profiles are white balance agnostic). If you read the "review" you'll see Keith had to render the image before he could even send the data to the DataColor product. Not so with a DNG profile of course. DNG profiles are shared in a location repository for both ACR and Lightroom. The DataColor product just makes a preset which makes sharing between various apps a bit more work since they are not shared between Adobe products. DNG profiles can be embedded into the raw data file (a DNG). The DNG spec is open, others can work to provide more functionality, the HSL sliders are closed as far as I know. In terms of "calibration", it seems pretty clear that DNG profiles and the calibrate area were designed to handle this portion of the processing. DataColors idea of instead using HSL could be considered a bit half baked but since I haven't tested it, I will reserve judgement. But what I wanted Keith to do was ask such questions and hopefully now go back and revamp his "review" even before asking users to buy the product from a link on his page to "support" his endeavors. But to be clear, my initial question to Keith was not meant to diss a product I've not seen but to ask some questions about its rational in terms of image processing.

Now as far as the rest of the article, he discusses the fading indicator but doesn't test it, we don't know it works. on paper, its a  neat idea. He states "The target layout to the right side matches other industry standard layouts" which is another way of saying (I think), its a Macbeth color checker. I don't even want to go into a discussion of the idea of "accurate" color in this context since that's a big red herring.

[keith_cooper]

Now as far as the rest of the article, he discusses the fading indicator but doesn't test it, we don't know it works.

Given the amount of daylight mentioned is 30 days US SW desert sunlight, and I live in the UK in November... I leave such testing as an exercise to those spending time in the desert sun :-)

I look forward to seeing other more comprehensive reviews (in quote marks or not ;-) )

[digitaldog]

Given the amount of daylight mentioned is 30 days US SW desert sunlight, and I live in the UK in November... I leave such testing as an exercise to those spending time in the desert sun :-)

Then maybe an additional edit is in order:

The colour target has a useful patch that will* change colour with cumulative exposure to light.

*?

[Schewe]

I look forward to seeing other more comprehensive reviews (in quote marks or not ;-) )

A thread in the Lightroom forum from back in Sept might shed light on the limitations of using HSL for calibration and Eric Chan answers some of Andrew's questions...(note the lack of scorn from Andrew in that thread as well).

DNG profiles, Calibration tab vs. HLS

[keith_cooper]

Useful info indeed, but I note that none of the people had actually tested the specific SpyderCheckr approach?

Whilst the theoretical background is interesting, the question of whether it actually works in certain practical situations is not addressed.

In my brief look at it, the results in 'fixing' images from my camera were quite acceptable - sorry if it's not the 'best' approach, but if it works...

However, I realise that my own personal requirements with regards to 'correct' colour rendition (theoretical or otherwise) may not match others. YMMV as they say... :-)

[digitaldog]

Useful info indeed, but I note that none of the people had actually tested the specific SpyderCheckr approach?

Yes but it IS useful to discuss with those that have designed the host product that uses SpyderCheckr the implication of its design and effect on the user (especially prior to writing about said product).

Whilst the theoretical background is interesting, the question of whether it actually works in certain practical situations is not addressed.

No one in this thread has questioned whether this approach works! Clearly it does something. The question is how it works and affects the host product. There are obvious implications that don’t require testing, such as the effect of taking a set of control points in an app (HSL controls) and essentially disabling them from the end user as a creative rendering control. You should again be thinking about this a little (its not at all mentioned in your “review”). Nor that Adobe, the parents of the two host products have produced a DNG profile creator and editor that cost nothing at all (but for that matter, the Passport software is free as well). Adobe produced a calibration architecture that doesn’t utilize HSL sliders. Curious why?

In my brief look at it, the results in 'fixing' images from my camera were quite acceptable - sorry if it's not the 'best' approach, but if it works...

They appear “acceptable” but the cost of this approach wasn’t at all discussed. Maybe you never use HSL controls so maybe you didn’t consider those of us that do.... Or maybe you could have easily adjusted the images yourself by simply using the HSL controls provided to you. And the idea it “fixed” something is an interesting comment when its not clear you tried to use the tools provided to produce a rendering you desired. Fixed implies something was broken.

However, I realise that my own personal requirements with regards to 'correct' colour rendition (theoretical or otherwise) may not match others. YMMV as they say... :-)

Indeed!

You’ve raised far more questions about the design of the product you “reviewed” than you’ve answered. But what you totally failed to do is simply answer my initial question and instead jumped up my ass about my customary scorn. My scorn (actually disappointment is a better term) isn’t focused on DataColor.

[wolfnowl]

Jeff/Andrew - thanks for your answers and your expertise!  Makes much more sense now.

Mike.

[julianv]

Let me add one small bit of clarification. The SpyderCheckr does not disable the HSL adjustments.  It applies its calibration by loading a group of HSL settings, saved in a preset.  You can still move the HSL sliders to add further adjustments on top of those loaded by the SpyderCheckr.  But you can't load a separate HSL preset, and have it additively applied to the SpyderCheckr calibration, since it is also a preset.  One preset will replace the other.

I've actually used the product, as a beta tester, but I have not tried the final production version.  I did not do any instrumented testing.  I was primarily interested to see whether the SpyderCheckr corrections would produce more pleasing results for white balance and color rendering.  I made test shots in open sun, shade, and under several artificial light sources.  Raw files were processed in ACR (CS 5).  When I compared shots made with and without the corrections, the differences were rather subtle - less than I expected.  Perhaps this is because the automatic white balance function in my camera (Nikon D700, with current firmware) is quite good.  I'm not sure that I would purchase the product for the type of casual shooting that I do.  Perhaps the corrections would be seen as more significant and useful for someone working in product or portrait photography, or in really pathological lighting conditions.

[keith_cooper]

Thanks for your comments based on actual use Julian.

It does indeed work in the way you mention and in good lighting, the effects are quite subtle.

As with many products, it may be that this approach suits some people's workflows - whilst not for others.

Now back to 'real' work - I've a new iPF8300 sitting here that needs some attention :-)

[digitaldog]

Let me add one small bit of clarification. The SpyderCheckr does not disable the HSL adjustments.

Right. I should have said it keeps a end user from altering all those nice sliders as a creative or corrective tool after/on top of the so called “calibration”  the SpyderCheckr just created. Jeff points out that: when you use a preset, you are actually applying an absolute adjustment and once set, it limits the subsequent adjustments leftover after the preset is applied which seems a severe limitation. Not the case with a DNG profile (nor as I understand it, a DNG profile with tweaks to the DNG sliders which arguably are used differently, isn’t a preset and not used as often by users as the HSL controls). This goes back to Keith’s first post here (I suppose the question many people will wonder, is how it compares to using DNG profiles from Passport?) which is putting the cart before the horse, the question I asked was all about the application and implication of how the two tools affect the host product. That was supposed to be my scorn but it was really a question still unanswered by the reviewer.

You can still move the HSL sliders to add further adjustments on top of those loaded by the SpyderCheckr.

Begging the question, what is the HSL preset built from the SpyderCheckr supposed to be doing, why would you build such a preset and then kind of invalidate what it just did? And if you want to really use the HSL tools as designed, why not build a camera calibration from a captured target using the tools Adobe built for both products, the DNG profile?

When I compared shots made with and without the corrections, the differences were rather subtle - less than I expected.

To be fair, one could say the same of some custom DNG profiles. But then I’ve seen significant difference not only in what a custom vs. “canned” (Adobe Standard as an example), DNG profile produce visually but also between DNG profiles built by the free Adobe product and with the Passport package. And least we forget, both DNG profiles can be edited in the free DNG profile editor. All while leaving the HSL controls to be used for other tasks.

Hopefully someone will produce a well researched and thought out review of not only how SpyderCheckr compare to the results using DNG profiles but further, its effect on the operation of the converters, the basis of my question below that started all the scorn!

So Keith, you have this SpyderCheckr which presumably has industry standard layouts. Is it a 24 patch ColorChecker? Can you build a DNG profile with the free Passport software or DNG Profile Editor as anyone with an existing Macbeth can do?

[keith_cooper]

So Keith, you have this SpyderCheckr which presumably has industry standard layouts. Is it a 24 patch ColorChecker? Can you build a DNG profile with the free Passport software or DNG Profile Editor as anyone with an existing Macbeth can do?

It might indeed be possible, but the patch layout does differ.

Of course, with your deeper appreciation of the issues, perhaps you could ask Datacolor for a review sample and provide a much more authoritative and comprehensive answer.

I'm sure they would be only too happy to oblige for another well balanced review to add to my own all too brief effort, I've always found them very reasonable people to deal with :-)

[digitaldog]

It might indeed be possible, but the patch layout does differ.

In that case, I kind of doubt it. I suspect any software that builds a DNG profile would expect the patches to be in a fixed order. We also don’t know if the patches really do match the Macbeth (you could measure them with a Spectrophotometer). Even if the patches were in the right order, it might make an awful DNG profile.

Of course, with your deeper appreciation of the issues, perhaps you could ask Datacolor for a review sample and provide a much more authoritative and comprehensive answer.
I'm sure they would be only too happy to oblige for another well balanced review to add to my own all too brief effort, I've always found them very reasonable people to deal with :-)

I have too much on my plate to be looking at a product that builds an HSL preset.