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Author Topic: Leaf Aptus-II 12  (Read 68170 times)

EricWHiss

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Re: Leaf Aptus-II 12
« Reply #60 on: September 22, 2010, 12:50:38 am »

Here's an image with 100% crops taken with a multishot back in microstep mode for comparison since I was curious.  The pixel count (10880 x 8160 but in true color) is similar to a single shot of the Aptus 12, but obviously its not going to be an apples to apples comparison to the ones Yair provided as those were hand held and two frames stitched and they have some distance (lots of atmosphere) to muck things up.   This was taken with an ixpress 528c on my Rollei 6008AF tripod mounted after I had just received the back.  1/8 second exposure per frame and I had the thing incorrectly configured so it was cycling the mirror in between frames.  What I think is interesting besides the detail is the richness of color.  Look for the water stains on the box and things like that with subtle color changes.  

« Last Edit: September 22, 2010, 12:58:01 am by EricWHiss »
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Frank Doorhof

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Re: Leaf Aptus-II 12
« Reply #61 on: September 22, 2010, 01:13:35 am »

Multishot is nice for some applications but you can't shoot for example a model with it, having 80MP's will fight moire very nicely.
They have a shot online with very difficult materials, just scroll through that and you can see there is no moire to be found anywhere.
Yair also made a shot from London which is absolutely breathtaking "do you see that boat ? no... well here it is including the people in it..... Oh it was that dot there"

For me PERSONALLY having 33MP is more than enough at the moment but I can imagine that people in landscape, architecture, repro and of course who work with difficult materials that HAVE to be 100% right the AptusII 12 can be a great addition.

I do remember however that a LOT of people complained about not having a full frame 6x45 back and they would run out if they could buy one, well here it is and to be honest the price was the biggest surprise for me, it's very affordable compared to what you paid for the AptusII 10 a while ago.

And yes I hope they release a full frame with 33-40MP at a price point of the AptusII 7, but for the time being I think they have a wonderful back series.

And I think in a few years time 80MP will probably be "a" or maybe "the" standard.
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EricWHiss

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Re: Leaf Aptus-II 12
« Reply #62 on: September 22, 2010, 01:33:02 am »

Frank,
yes of course that's true -  I was mostly curious to see the comparison as this back has been labeled as a multishot killer.
Eric
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jduncan

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Re: Leaf Aptus-II 12
« Reply #63 on: September 22, 2010, 01:48:15 am »

Here's an image with 100% crops taken with a multishot back in microstep mode for comparison since I was curious.  The pixel count (10880 x 8160 but in true color) is similar to a single shot of the Aptus 12, but obviously its not going to be an apples to apples comparison to the ones Yair provided as those were hand held and two frames stitched and they have some distance (lots of atmosphere) to muck things up.   This was taken with an ixpress 528c on my Rollei 6008AF tripod mounted after I had just received the back.  1/8 second exposure per frame and I had the thing incorrectly configured so it was cycling the mirror in between frames.  What I think is interesting besides the detail is the richness of color.  Look for the water stains on the box and things like that with subtle color changes.  


This machines are suit. The image fire almost Synesthesic  reactions in my brain. If the MF industry is able to create this kind of pictures on a more responsive package we are moving into a very interesting times. Right now MF is under attack by the each day better 35mm SLR. Also  the  35mm Market is under attack from MF systems, each year more affordable. The way this backs appears to handle moire means that resolution buy you something more than pixels. If the new back (the aptus)  were able to provide the cadence  that some new fashion work need it will be quite a showing.
So medium format companies are getting there. The question is: Do they have  the time needed before the good enough mind set eats them away?
 Also each user that moves to 35mm is one user less to pay for R&D. I believe that this sensors will end up on the H4D-40s and P45+s replacements of the not so distant future.
The camera is more than the sensor, I know that, and at that level 35mm SLR are far ahead even in front of the big MF players. But in this other direction is hard to say that MF is not becoming good enough  :)
« Last Edit: September 22, 2010, 01:57:12 am by jduncan »
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bcooter

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Re: Leaf Aptus-II 12
« Reply #64 on: September 22, 2010, 03:09:37 am »

Seems to me the sample shots posted are very poor quality - is it just me ?


This all seems like more marketing than substance, at least from these samples.

I guess your not suppose to pixel compared at 100% but then again when it's marketed as a super definition device, the shadows from th exterior shots shouldn't look that rough. 

Probably with studio flash the samples will look better, (though all images look better with studio flash), though at a base 80 iso it pretty much is a studio flash back, so maybe that's why it's marketed as a multi shot option.

I would have loved to see Leaf add a few more things in this back like a lithium battery and while they're at it moving the battery away from the firewire connection so the back can power the firewire during tethering.

Personally the samples I'd like to see are various skin tones, but maybe this is a still life back as all the early samples are devoid of human subjects.

BTW:  does anybody know what the raw file size is for this back and if it can be compressed into different sizes?

BC
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UlfKrentz

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Re: Leaf Aptus-II 12
« Reply #65 on: September 22, 2010, 03:55:34 am »

The Aptus file sizes are Raw 165MB / Raw compressed 107MB. They say sensor flex yes, this used to be a crop size only available in tethered mode with the Aptus 10. No Idea what crop sizes will be available for the A12. Skin tones without makeup (hands, legs etc) are always difficult, but for our work we found the best results with the leaf backs. Large file sizes for fashion use will be a headache, and for us the frame rate is a killing factor. We are using the A II 10 now and the results are really stunning. Very fast capture rate and great skin tones, file size and the transfer time to see the images on the (computer) display feels already a bit limiting. What´s wrong about the battery? We hardly ever work untethered but never experienced problems when we did, tethered use is rock solid, never felt the need for an additional battery.

I´ll take a look tomorrow ;-))

Cheers, Ulf

narikin

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Re: Leaf Aptus-II 12
« Reply #66 on: September 22, 2010, 04:54:58 am »

Yes the speed drop to 1.5fps is disappointing. Its 33% more pixels than a P65+ but seems to be 50% slower.
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Dennis Carbo

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Re: Leaf Aptus-II 12
« Reply #67 on: September 22, 2010, 07:24:04 am »

Sample images posted by eric are similar to what I would expect from the leaf  - sharp and clear with tons of detail ! And that was done with an older back, similar to my Rollei 6008i/54M combo. Even at 32s my Sinar 54M is close to noise free why are the Leaf samples so "dirty" ?  Love to see some samples shot with a tripod !
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MrSmith

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Re: Leaf Aptus-II 12
« Reply #68 on: September 22, 2010, 07:47:32 am »

any close ups of the sky from those multishot pics? only whenever i used multishot on location something always moved and would have to shoot a single shot back-up and go over the multi shot file to look for the tell tale jagged edges where something moved during the exposures.
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ondebanks

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Re: Leaf Aptus-II 12
« Reply #69 on: September 22, 2010, 09:58:08 am »

I appreciate the effort, but the hand-held and 'pillow-mounted' shots are not showing the system off to its best advantage. It's hard to distinguish what is camera shake, what is the limitation of the lens, and what is due to the back itself. The fabric image which was already posted was far superior.

I also noticed the 'painted' effect, which I find odd but as Bernard pointed out, it will no doubt look good in print.

I'll reserve final judgment of the back (rather than the system as a whole) until I see more reliable samples.

Well there are some things that cannot be blamed on camera shake or lens limitations. In the 25-sec night shot crops of the cathedral, there are quite obvious isolated white and black pixels. These would appear to be undercorrected and overcorrected hot pixels, respectively. For a brand new CCD (no radiation aging), this would be disappointing.

But before we jump to conclusions, some questions for Yair:
1) Was there a dark frame taken consecutively with the cathedral exposure and of equal duration? Was it manually or automatically subtracted?
2) How good is the temperature control on the back - what sort of ventilation or cooling is employed? Does it maintain the sensor at parity with the ambient temperature?

Ray
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BJL

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22MP multi-shot gives 22 million very good pixels, not 88MP
« Reply #70 on: September 22, 2010, 12:32:12 pm »

Here's an image with 100% crops taken with a multishot back in microstep mode for comparison since I was curious.  The pixel count (10880 x 8160 but in true color) is similar to a single shot of the Aptus 12
Eric, a 22MP multi-shot camera does not give 88MP, and it certainly does not magically give a 10880x8160 image from a 5440x4080 sensor; the sensor does not have that spatial resolution. What it gives is 22MP, with each pixel of very high quality due to being based on two green, one red, and one blue measurement. All industry standards for sensors rightly count pixels as locations on the sensor, and then distinguish the amount of information at each location.

For example, the official CIPA(?) designation for the new Sigma/Foveon sensor is "15.36MPx3", meaning "15.36MP, each with three color values", not (15.36x3)MP = 46MP. Even Foveon acknowledges in its technical papers that by measuring all three primary colors at each location, its X3 sensors give roughly the resolution of a Bayer CFA sensor of twice the pixel count, not thrice (or in this case four times) the pixel count. (Sigma's marketing department then ignores what its own Foveon division engineers say! Pity, because even the truth probably gives its new 15MPx3 sensor distinctly better resolution than any current APS-C rival, and probably better resolution than any current 35mm format sensor.)


But 39MP multi-shot vs 80MP single shot might be an interesting and close comparison.
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Graham Mitchell

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Re: 22MP multi-shot gives 22 million very good pixels, not 88MP
« Reply #71 on: September 22, 2010, 01:17:39 pm »

Eric, a 22MP multi-shot camera does not give 88MP,

It certainly does, in 16-shot mode.
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: 22MP multi-shot gives 22 million very good pixels, not 88MP
« Reply #72 on: September 22, 2010, 01:45:54 pm »

Even Foveon acknowledges in its technical papers that by measuring all three primary colors at each location, its X3 sensors give roughly the resolution of a Bayer CFA sensor of twice the pixel count,

Mostly due to the absence of an AA-filter, and a little color resolution due to the x3 sampling. See where the spin starts to confuse matters, which is what I warned about in the thread about the announcement ...

But let's not digress from the original topic, in this MF/film/DB forum.

Cheers,
Bart
« Last Edit: September 22, 2010, 01:50:23 pm by BartvanderWolf »
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EricWHiss

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Re: Leaf Aptus-II 12
« Reply #73 on: September 22, 2010, 02:32:44 pm »

BJL,
Graham already answered for me - there's a big difference between 16 shot (key word here = microstep ) and multishot backs as you've now learned.  For all - if you want to learn more about multishot and microstep backs  then I'd suggest you post a new thread so that this one about the Aptus 12 doesn't get off track.  
Eric

« Last Edit: September 22, 2010, 02:36:17 pm by EricWHiss »
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Christopher

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Re: Leaf Aptus-II 12
« Reply #74 on: September 22, 2010, 04:55:18 pm »

I don't know why these day 100% crop look like that, but I can tell you they look a lot better when the real raw format is opened.
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Christopher Hauser
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Guy Mancuso

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Re: Leaf Aptus-II 12
« Reply #75 on: September 22, 2010, 05:40:56 pm »

I don't know why these day 100% crop look like that, but I can tell you they look a lot better when the real raw format is opened.


Chris it could be the size that Yair loaded the images up and our forum software actually compressing it down to fit a size limit. If Yair can load them in the Gallery first than use the BBC code it would work better. He obviously might not have time for that. If he wanted to send to me first  than I can load them up for him. As the admin I have higher size limit to post:)
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fredjeang

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Re: Leaf Aptus-II 12
« Reply #76 on: September 22, 2010, 06:08:03 pm »

This Leaf would be a tremendous tool for the "Edward Burtynsky like". I mean, art galleries photographers.

I think he finally started to work with a digital Hasselblad. But I see people like him really enjoying such a device.

For me, I would be more than happy if the MF players would one day point another "target"  and do a fast 20 ish MP back but CMOS with live view AND video capabilities to narrow even more the DOF in video.
As the MF cameras are big, the lcd could be at least a 4" articulated or bigger...(dream on 1)
Or a 6x6 full frame CCD of 40ish mp. (Dream on 2 Fred)

And in those prices, they offer the steadycam.
  
« Last Edit: September 22, 2010, 06:16:02 pm by fredjeang »
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Doug Peterson

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Re: Leaf Aptus-II 12
« Reply #77 on: September 22, 2010, 06:25:31 pm »

I don't know why these day 100% crop look like that, but I can tell you they look a lot better when the real raw format is opened.

Yeah; I can speak to the fact the sample images I viewed with Yair looked fabulous.

For now maybe you can turn your drool towards the 100% crop in JPG (max quality) from our website that I got from him by Sneakernet at Photokina. :-)

http://www.captureintegration.com/2010/09/20/leaf-aptus-ii-12-aptus-ii-12r/

This sensor really rocks. Give it a bit of time - Leaf always does a great job of getting newly released backs in the hands of photographers that can get the most out of it to get sample files that show what the back is capable of. Also tweaks for long exposure capture/processing and tweaks to the sensor readout in firmware are something that is typically worked on until the shipment of the first production back (and even then continued to be tweaked for months or even years after initial release).

That said check out the file at the link above to see why I'm already very excited.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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fredjeang

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Re: Leaf Aptus-II 12
« Reply #78 on: September 22, 2010, 06:40:06 pm »

Yeah; I can speak to the fact the sample images I viewed with Yair looked fabulous.

For now maybe you can turn your drool towards the 100% crop in JPG (max quality) from our website that I got from him by Sneakernet at Photokina. :-)

http://www.captureintegration.com/2010/09/20/leaf-aptus-ii-12-aptus-ii-12r/

This sensor really rocks. Give it a bit of time - Leaf always does a great job of getting newly released backs in the hands of photographers that can get the most out of it to get sample files that show what the back is capable of. Also tweaks for long exposure capture/processing and tweaks to the sensor readout in firmware are something that is typically worked on until the shipment of the first production back (and even then continued to be tweaked for months or even years after initial release).

That said check out the file at the link above to see why I'm already very excited.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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Phase One, Leaf, Cambo, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
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Pretty impressed with the 1,5 frrame/sec considering the files.
That is better than before in relation to the size.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Leaf Aptus-II 12
« Reply #79 on: September 22, 2010, 07:00:17 pm »

Pretty impressed with the 1,5 frrame/sec considering the files.
That is better than before in relation to the size.

Isn't it 1.5 second per frame? :)

Cheers,
Bernard
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