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Author Topic: Leaf Aptus-II 12  (Read 46880 times)

Steve Hendrix

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Re: Leaf Aptus-II 12 for Contax, not Hy6
« Reply #120 on: September 30, 2010, 09:09:03 PM »

Jack,
Are you just regurgitating other posts from your own forum or other places without doing any fact checking or do you really know first hand that's how it went?   Just asking because it appears that GetDPI is strongly aligned with Phase through a well known dealer.
Eric



Just for the sake of clarification, I don't think we've ever offered any definitive insight into what went down...

I have my own theories, but they're not worth a thing.

And I think as Mr. Cooter says, ultimately money and business plans that produce it (or attempt to) typically rule the day.

BJL - IMO there are certainly more Contax's in use than Hy6 cameras, even after being discontinued all these years. Also, behind Leaf's decision to offer Contax mount, probably less expensive to produce a limited run of Apti for a Contax than for an AFi/Hy6.

Obviously Contax as a digital back platform doesn't have the numbers of Mamiya/Phase or Hasselblad H (or even Hasselblad V), but it has been a very consistent and loyal base of digital back purchasers/upgraders.


Steve Hendrix
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bcooter

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Re: Leaf Aptus-II 12 for Contax, not Hy6
« Reply #121 on: October 01, 2010, 01:50:46 AM »

I don't doubt for a second that Phase taking over Mamiya was not a better idea than partnering with the HY6.  The HY6 held great promise, but the deal with Mamiya gave phase more control over their own destiny and in the business world control is everything.

Now I'm not the biggest fan of the Mamiya 645 just because it isn't my cup - 0 -  tea, but that doesn't mean that going forward it wasn't the best decision for the company and the cusotmer.

I also don't believe Phase presently dissed the HY6 out of retribution.  That makes no business sense and would take away too much good will.

IMO

BC


Just for the sake of clarification, I don't think we've ever offered any definitive insight into what went down...

I have my own theories, but they're not worth a thing.

And I think as Mr. Cooter says, ultimately money and business plans that produce it (or attempt to) typically rule the day.

BJL - IMO there are certainly more Contax's in use than Hy6 cameras, even after being discontinued all these years. Also, behind Leaf's decision to offer Contax mount, probably less expensive to produce a limited run of Apti for a Contax than for an AFi/Hy6.

Obviously Contax as a digital back platform doesn't have the numbers of Mamiya/Phase or Hasselblad H (or even Hasselblad V), but it has been a very consistent and loyal base of digital back purchasers/upgraders.


Steve Hendrix
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yaya

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Re: Leaf Aptus-II 12
« Reply #122 on: October 01, 2010, 03:07:01 AM »

Yair,
Help us all get back on topic and post some more samples from the new back!
Thanks,
Eric

Nah this thread is too enjoyable as it is already...if I post images we'll be back to pseudo scientific remarks about astronomy, painterly effects and microscopic noise patterns...

We'll have more images taken by real photographers up soon, probably in a new thread...

Yair

narikin

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Re: Leaf Aptus-II 12
« Reply #123 on: October 02, 2010, 08:32:27 AM »

While I would like a faster capture rate, what I meant was the slower capture rate as a positive is that perhaps they are not rushing the data off the chip, which compromises image quality. I would love an 80MP sensor at 1.5 frames per second (instead of 1.5 seconds per frame), but honestly, faster frame rates hasn't been a driving force behind most of our digital back sales from the past year. I personally prefer 1 shot per second as a minimum, but at 80MP's I'd rather squeeze every bit of quality out of the sensor.
Steve Hendrix

Oh Come On Steve!  this is ridiculous. data is data. 1's and 0's. either you have it or you don't. Speed has nothing to do with it.  Otherwise a Canon 1Dmk4 in Drive mode would give worse quality images than in single shot mode!  Aaargh.  

Reminds me of my Dad complaining that he couldn't get onto the internet because of all the 'young people' on there! He thought it was like a train or bus that had got filled up by all the queue jumpers, and there was no room left for old folks.  (the desktop link on his computer was simply broken)



« Last Edit: October 02, 2010, 08:34:51 AM by narikin »
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BartvanderWolf

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Re: Leaf Aptus-II 12
« Reply #124 on: October 02, 2010, 09:22:40 AM »

Oh Come On Steve!  this is ridiculous. data is data. 1's and 0's. either you have it or you don't. Speed has nothing to do with it.

That's not correct. Read-out speed has an effect on noise. What's more, for CMOS devices it is possible to do multiple (non-destructive but time consuming) readouts and improve noise statistics and thus dynamic range.

Data is not data until it is quantized by the ADC!

Another question is whether the relatively low FPS are caused by read-out speed or by mechanical restrictions and the amount of data that needs to be off-loaded from the sensor array.

Cheers,
Bart
« Last Edit: October 03, 2010, 10:43:53 AM by BartvanderWolf »
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bradleygibson

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Re: Leaf Aptus-II 12
« Reply #125 on: October 02, 2010, 10:48:20 AM »

Oh Come On Steve!  this is ridiculous. data is data. 1's and 0's. either you have it or you don't. Speed has nothing to do with it.  Otherwise a Canon 1Dmk4 in Drive mode would give worse quality images than in single shot mode!  Aaargh.

Actually, Steve and Bart are quite correct.  Sensors convert light into electrical charge -- this is an analog quantity, and must be moved to the analog-to-digital converter (ADC) for conversion into a digital signal.  It is very, very difficult to move this data without contaminating it with noise before it is converted to digital data.

Canon has many, many patents protecting the results of millions of dollars of research into sensor designs, which include moving this analog data quickly and cleanly to the ADC.

This initial stage where the information is stored as analog charge is the very same stage at which the temperature of your sensor visibly impacts the amount of noise in your image--as you point out, once the data is digital, it is immune to such effects.  The effect that temperature has on noise you can experience yourself with any digital camera.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2010, 11:43:59 PM by bradleygibson »
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Doug Peterson

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Re: Leaf Aptus-II 12
« Reply #126 on: October 03, 2010, 10:40:12 AM »

Oh Come On Steve!  this is ridiculous. data is data. 1's and 0's. either you have it or you don't. Speed has nothing to do with it.  Otherwise a Canon 1Dmk4 in Drive mode would give worse quality images than in single shot mode!  Aaargh.

Steve's been at this a couple years and rarely speaks without something to back up his thoughts  ;).

As pointed out by two nice fellow forum members there is in fact a relationship between speed and quality when it comes to read out and other elements of the data-path and overall system design. If/where there is a compromise to be made I'd also rather it be in the direction of quality rather than speed.

That said it'd be great if it could have been 1 fps - from shooting with many kinds of backs that is also my personal threshold for feeling "snappy". YMMV

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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bradleygibson

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Re: Leaf Aptus-II 12
« Reply #127 on: October 03, 2010, 11:14:02 AM »

Yep, I agree Doug.  There's something nice about that 1fps threshold...
« Last Edit: October 03, 2010, 11:15:37 AM by bradleygibson »
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jduncan

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Hassy classic was retired, Contax was retired, Hy6 was mothballed, Sinar M killed - do I see a pattern here? If I were a conspiracy theorist I would say that Zeiss lenses are bad for a company's health :)

Edmund
Sony should be nervous.
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eronald

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Sony should be nervous.

I don't think there will be a successor to the 900/850.

Edmund
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Jim2

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Re: Leaf Aptus-II 12
« Reply #130 on: October 03, 2010, 07:16:27 PM »

Hi just a quick question... since I have never seen a leaf back in person. Will this be suitable for outdoor / landscape work dealing with: damp / rainy environment, or dust blowing, cold or hot? From what I have read the back has holes / vents so would that mean it won't be good using it in a very windy/dusty environment? Thanks for the clarification.
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yaya

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Re: Leaf Aptus-II 12
« Reply #131 on: October 04, 2010, 02:26:37 AM »

Hi just a quick question... since I have never seen a leaf back in person. Will this be suitable for outdoor / landscape work dealing with: damp / rainy environment, or dust blowing, cold or hot? From what I have read the back has holes / vents so would that mean it won't be good using it in a very windy/dusty environment? Thanks for the clarification.

I've been shooting outdoors with Aptus backs since 2005 (and before that with Valeo backs) and have had no issues with wind, dust or damp conditions.
Solid rain is not recommended of course...for this I would get a rain cover.

Leaf backs are made in a country where the summer can be very hot and humid near the coast while in spring and autumn you get plenty of dust storms. Open vents were never an issue in these conditions.

Really cold weather affects battery behaviour. For this we make a DC-to-Firewire adapter that allows the back to run of of an external battery e.g. Quantum, which can be kept under your jacket.

Hope this helps

Yair

Frank Doorhof

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Re: Leaf Aptus-II 12
« Reply #132 on: October 04, 2010, 03:34:21 AM »

I've shot with them in Florida during a heat weave, water was literally streaming out of my body, I believe it was 34 degrees C, with a humidity of high in the 80's and the Aptus II7 performed great while my Applejuice just gave up, it wouldn't work for a few days.

Also did some shoots with it at the Salton sea in California and salvation mountain, very dusty and high 40's C. and it didn't stop working.

And of course in our own country we did some shoots last winter with below zero temps and it also worked like a charm, except the batteries. We use Panasonic replacements that run at least four times as long (but are a lot bigger).

I don't have experience with real rain, but to be honest my back did get his occasional splash of water (by accident) and it never gave a problem. However I strongly advise to not use it in the rain, but as Yaya mentioned there a rain cover would be wise.
 
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KETCHROSSI

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Re: Leaf Aptus-II 12
« Reply #133 on: October 13, 2010, 09:51:29 PM »

Some very interesting points of view, some good points, and some not so good, but we each have our own needs and see things our own way, is our nature.

I however I do agreed that there is not only the need for Super High resolution Cameras, but that there is also the need to progress the evolution of design of the MF cameras, and the Leaf surely did a great Job bringing to market the new 12/12R at 80MP, even so I still very much miss a better LCD, amongst few things I have accustom to the past 20+ years of Photography on 35mm cameras, but I look forward to test out the Aptus 12, even so as I get ready to test out the Aptus 10/DF system and the Leica S2, I fill I might just simply very possibly go with the Leica S2, for the more familiar system, but I will be sure to give the Leaf Backs a ride for their money, as at FF MF 80MP offers a new ground of Resolution, Print Size and Detail.

At the end is the way each of us utilizes our gear, and what we utilize it for, that will make the main differences stand up or disappear, and make the additional Resolution Mater or not, and make the various aspects, of each system stand up or not vs. the other depending on the intended use.

Thanks for all you contributions, including links ;)
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Fritzer

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Re: Leaf Aptus-II 12
« Reply #134 on: November 24, 2010, 05:48:03 AM »

Well, a European Leaf rep. just told me, the Aptus II 12 will only be available in the R version for the users of a Habla V adapter .

The R seems to be roughly 8000 Euros more than the non-R ; I was quoted a sum for an upgrade/trade-in from my Aptus 75 ( Habla V) which is hilarious, due to this .

Can anyone shed some light on that - it's not correct information, is it ?
Yaya, Doug, anyone ?
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Doug Peterson

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Re: Leaf Aptus-II 12
« Reply #135 on: November 24, 2010, 09:45:11 AM »

Well, a European Leaf rep. just told me, the Aptus II 12 will only be available in the R version for the users of a Habla V adapter .

The R seems to be roughly 8000 Euros more than the non-R ; I was quoted a sum for an upgrade/trade-in from my Aptus 75 ( Habla V) which is hilarious, due to this .

Can anyone shed some light on that - it's not correct information, is it ?

Rotating versions will be available for the AFI and the V mounts. An R mount in the 645 bodies would not make any sense since the opening in the back of the camera is a horizontal 6x4.5. If you rotated the sensor on a 645 horizontal opening you'd just see the metal of the body at the top and bottom of the camera mount. A rotation on an AFI or V makes sense because you're rotating a horizontal 645 frame within a 6x6 rear-camera-opening; it can fit either vertical or horizontal.

US list pricing on the 12 and the 12R for V are the same at US$31,995
US list pricing for the AFI-12 (includes rotation) is US$33,490

Trade-up pricing for a 75 in the US will give you a good chunk of change more in trade-in-value for your 75 than you could get for it on the open market, and from that point of view is very fiscally attractive; as well you don't have to hassle with selling it with the chance/annoyance of buyer fraud, buyer rejection, or variable pricing on an auction.

I can't comment on European pricing and availability (meaning I don't know).

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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Neil Folberg

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Re: Leaf Aptus-II 12
« Reply #136 on: November 24, 2010, 11:22:49 PM »

Hello Doug,

I do recall that you said something earlier about checking with DHW about their plans for the Afi platform and in general about their plans - did something come of that meeting?

I am considering the upgrade from the AFi-ii 7 and the trade-in offer I got here in Israel seems interesting, but I won't be able to see a demo for a while and it is still a substantial sum of money. I also wonder how much slower it is in practice in writing files to the back when shooting and how I would handle on a regular basis the greatly increased file size.

Many thanks for your interesting comments and updates.

Neil
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yaya

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Re: Leaf Aptus-II 12
« Reply #137 on: November 25, 2010, 02:19:47 AM »

Well, a European Leaf rep. just told me, the Aptus II 12 will only be available in the R version for the users of a Habla V adapter .

The R seems to be roughly 8000 Euros more than the non-R ; I was quoted a sum for an upgrade/trade-in from my Aptus 75 ( Habla V) which is hilarious, due to this .

Can anyone shed some light on that - it's not correct information, is it ?
Yaya, Doug, anyone ?

Hi there,

Price wise, there is absolutely no difference between the 12R (V mount) and the other mounts (Contax, Phase/ Mamiya and H), be it a trade-in from an A75 or a straight forward new back purchase

Hope this clarifies

Yair

Steve Hendrix

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Re: Leaf Aptus-II 12
« Reply #138 on: November 25, 2010, 11:59:36 AM »

Hello Doug,

I do recall that you said something earlier about checking with DHW about their plans for the Afi platform and in general about their plans - did something come of that meeting?

I am considering the upgrade from the AFi-ii 7 and the trade-in offer I got here in Israel seems interesting, but I won't be able to see a demo for a while and it is still a substantial sum of money. I also wonder how much slower it is in practice in writing files to the back when shooting and how I would handle on a regular basis the greatly increased file size.

Many thanks for your interesting comments and updates.

Neil


FYI -

http://www.captureintegration.com/2010/11/17/an-impressive-stable-of-technology/

Difficult to predict the future - really with many companies - but this is the uptake on the situation from our meetings, taken at face value, as presented.


Steve Hendrix
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Fritzer

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Re: Leaf Aptus-II 12
« Reply #139 on: November 25, 2010, 12:03:11 PM »

Sorry, I seem to not have been clear.

There is no non-R version of the Aptus II 12 in V-mount, is that correct ?

As I have no need whatsoever for the rotating sensor, but use the V-mount for my sliding back and Mamyia RZ adapter, it'd be quite annoying if that would be true .

The Aptus 12 (non-R), it still manually mounts in both vertical and horizontal orientation, I assume, like my Aptus 75 ?
Why would there be no V-mount option then ?
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