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Author Topic: Demo images from Phase One to download  (Read 3880 times)

ErikKaffehr

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Demo images from Phase One to download
« on: September 19, 2010, 07:59:31 am »

Hi!

Phase has some images comapring P65+ with DSLRs here: http://www.phaseone.com/en/Downloads/Sample-images.aspx

My own conclusions are here: 
http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/index.php/photoarticles/41-phase-one-images-for-download

I recommend everyone interested to check out...

In short, the advantages of P65 are for real, which is quite evident if we look at the images

Best Regards
Erik
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Erik Kaffehr
 

MrSmith

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Re: Demo images from Phase One to download
« Reply #1 on: September 19, 2010, 03:02:51 pm »

i find these comparisons a bit odd.
most photographers who own a 50-60mp back will probably already own a dslr of some kind and be aware of the differences, anyone looking to buy a 50-60mp back would be interested in comparisons between phase/H-blad/leaf/sinar.

like comparing chalk and cheese. 
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geesbert

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Re: Demo images from Phase One to download
« Reply #2 on: September 19, 2010, 03:35:09 pm »

what's the point? Is there anyone who claims that Dslr files are equal to P65 files when looking at them on screen?

it would be only valid if you compare the final output, like web to web or print to print or magazine to magazine.
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marcmccalmont

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Re: Demo images from Phase One to download
« Reply #3 on: September 19, 2010, 05:07:06 pm »

I appreciate the time and effort Erik put into the comparison
It is valid to compare "state of the art" to what you own sort of a reality check.
Marc
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Marc McCalmont

ErikKaffehr

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Re: Demo images from Phase One to download
« Reply #4 on: September 19, 2010, 05:10:15 pm »

Hi!

My suggestion is mainly that those who are interested should download the images and check for themselves.

And thanks for comment!

Best regards
Erik
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Erik Kaffehr
 

MrSmith

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Re: Demo images from Phase One to download
« Reply #5 on: September 19, 2010, 05:11:00 pm »

the price of a p65 is the only reality check i need ::)
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Demo images from Phase One to download
« Reply #6 on: September 19, 2010, 08:10:02 pm »

Ray

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Re: Demo images from Phase One to download
« Reply #7 on: September 19, 2010, 08:58:29 pm »

I think Erik might have misconstrued (or thinks others might misconstrue) some comments I made on another thread where I implied that in certain circumstances, with certain scenes that require a specific DoF and fast shutter speed, the very cheap Canon D60  might produce results that are of higher quality than the P65+, and specifically of higher quality in respect to DR, according to DXOmark.

Since DXOmark do not address resolution issues, there was some doubt as to whether or not the P65+, in sensor+ mode where the pixels are binned to 15mp, would produce higher resolution at F11 and ISO 1600 than the D60 would produce at F4 and ISO 100.

Erik maintains that the exceptionally large P65 pixel that results when each group of four are binned, would ensure that, even at F11 or F13, the P65+ would produce a sharper image than the D60 can produce at F4 with a lens like the 100/2.8 IS Macro which is sharpest at F4. In other words, Erik maintains that the undoubtedly better resolution of the Canon 100/2.8 IS used at F4 would not be sufficient to overcome the advantages of the significanly larger, binned pixels of the P65+ in sensor+ mode.

I would agree when comparing images from both cameras at base ISO, this would indeed be the case. However, I get the impression that the option of sensor+ is available only at ISO 1600 and above, but I'm not sure about this.

Here's a comment from Michael's review of the P65+.  http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/sensor-plus.shtml


Quote
The above frame and its accompanying 100% enlargement tell the story. This is a typical "event" photograph taken under available light. At ISO 1600 in Sensor+ mode the P65+ delivers a clean and usable 15 megapixel file. Close examination does show a bit of aggressive noise reduction in some areas of very fine detail, but this is only when compared to the usual totally clean files that medium format backs provide at lower speeds, and is no more so than files from contemporary DSLRs at a comparable speed.


I understand this comment from Michael is a general impression only. DXOmark show quite clearly that the Canon 7D at ISO 100 has almost 2 stops better DR than the P65+ at ISO 1600 in sensor+ mode. (1.87 stops to be precise). Not only is the DR of the 7D significantly better, but all the other image quality measurements addressed by DXOmark (tonal range etc) are also at least marginally better.

Now you might well ask why would photographers bother to use a P65+ at F11 and ISO 1600 at all?  I guess the answer would be, because they are not carrying a good DSLR at the time.

In my own photography I find that I am often juggling the compromises and trade-offs between getting the degree of DoF I'd like and a sufficiently fast shutter speed to freeze subject movement and/or camera shake. For my style of phoptography, I prefer not to use a tripod, if I can get away without using one. I find tripods cumbersome and restrictive.

F4 at ISO 100 on the 7D (and presumably 60D) results in the same DoF and same shutter speed as F11 at ISO 1600 on the P65+. In fact the shutter speed on the P65+ would probably be slightly slower since ISO 1600 is really only ISO 698, according to DXOmark.

In a situation where the natural lighting is not strong and flash might be inappropriate, but a good DoF and reasonably high shutter speed is a requirement, it would seem to me the MFDB is actually at a disadvantage compared with the DSLR.

On the other hand, when the subject is still and one needs a very high resolution image, it's now very easy to stitch multiple images, even multiple, exposure-bracketed shots to increase DR and tonality in addition to increasing resolution.
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uaiomex

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Re: Demo images from Phase One to download
« Reply #8 on: September 19, 2010, 09:04:27 pm »

I find these comparisons worth looking. If it is oranges to apples, that's fine with me, I'm capable to discern the difference in between and able to come to my own helpful conclusions. Too bad they are not DNG's.  :'(
Eduardo
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Josh-H

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Re: Demo images from Phase One to download
« Reply #9 on: September 19, 2010, 09:27:40 pm »

For whats it worth, last week I spent a couple of hours with my local Phase dealer in Melbourne discussing the various Pbacks  - specifically the P40+ (in which I am interested) and the P65+. I was trying to make the tough decision of wether to buy one as an upgrade to my Canon DSLR kit.

There were things I liked and things I didnt like about the Phase set-up from a physical camera/back perspective - but thats not the topic of this thread and is the subject of another discussion.

Not to press the point of indecision, but I ended up walking away with a bunch of sample files from both the P40+ and P65+ and spent a day and a bit playing with them in LR3 in my own studio. I may still go back and do a test shoot as has been offered in the field - but that is pending another factor I will mention below.

There is no question that the files are crisper than 1DSMKIII files on screen at 100%; blind freddy could instantly see the difference. But then they should be for the cost and resolution of the backs. The comparison is also sort of irrelevant - its like comparing the 1DSMKIII to a $100 P&S. Its even more irrelevant in that really we should be comparing final output - i.e. prints. Ultimately all this comparison acheives is to prove that at 100% on screen the higher resolution larger sensor performs better  - duh.

I have decided not to buy a PBack at present; not because I cant see the quality differences in the files, but because the new Pentax 40MPX is around the corner at a game changing price and my gut feel is it is going to really shake up the MFDB market. I hope to be able to do a test shoot soon with this camera.
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feppe

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Re: Demo images from Phase One to download
« Reply #10 on: September 19, 2010, 09:34:00 pm »

Since DXOmark do not address resolution issues, there was some doubt as to whether or not the P65+, in sensor+ mode where the pixels are binned to 15mp, would produce higher resolution at F11 and ISO 1600 than the D60 would produce at F4 and ISO 100.

Comparing resolution equivalents at different ISOs - that'd be an interesting exercise. I think such calculations would have to take diffraction into account. Different lenses would make head-to-head comparisons of different lenses and camera formats... complicated.

Ray

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Re: Demo images from Phase One to download
« Reply #11 on: September 19, 2010, 11:13:33 pm »

Comparing resolution equivalents at different ISOs - that'd be an interesting exercise. I think such calculations would have to take diffraction into account. Different lenses would make head-to-head comparisons of different lenses and camera formats... complicated.

I consider that all lenses are about equal at F11 and would certainly deliver a lower resolution at the same MTF than a 35mm format lens which is sharpest at F4 or F5.6.

But such comparisons work both ways and, depending on whether a shallow DoF or an extensive DoF is required, will either favour or disadvantage the DSLR, whether full-frame or APS-C.

A modern Digitar MF lens which is sharpest at F5.6 will likely produce sharper results on the P65+ when used at ISO 1600, than a D60 used at F2 and ISO 100 for equivalent DoF and shutter speed. There's no question that at ISO 50 or 100, the P65+ will produce better quality images in all respects when a fast shutter speed is not an issue, so there's really little point in discussing that aspect of performance.

What surprises me, when comparisons between MFDB and DSLRs are made, is the lack of concern about the significance of both shutter speed and DoF. I guess this is because such comparisons are usually made by people who own or sell MFDB equipment, and the agenda of such people is to demonstrate the potential benefits of the increased image quality of the MFDB system, not its limitation.
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Demo images from Phase One to download
« Reply #12 on: September 19, 2010, 11:35:02 pm »

Yes, that would be interesting.

Best regards
Erik

Thanks.

Too bad they didn't include a D3x indeed.

Cheers,
Bernard

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Erik Kaffehr
 

ErikKaffehr

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Re: Demo images from Phase One to download
« Reply #13 on: September 19, 2010, 11:39:44 pm »

Hi,

I opened the images with Capture One (demo) and saved as DNG. White point was erranious on the Phase One DNG, so I used WP from the Canon image.

Best regards
Erik
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