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Author Topic: New equipment: need your advice  (Read 7009 times)

claude0581

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New equipment: need your advice
« on: September 17, 2010, 05:15:09 pm »

I've finally decided to upgrade my current camera/lenses and I need some advice.
I have a $3500-$4000 budget for a new camera plus lens combo. I mostly shoot landscape with some Documentary/Photojournalist work tossed in the mix.
I am pretty set on the Canon 5d Mark 2 as my new body (as I am also interested in video) but I am having trouble making a choice on a lens.

I have been considering the following lenses (in no particular order):

Canon 50mm 1.4 or 1.2L

Canon 35L

Zeiss 35mm f/2

Zeiss 50mm f/1.4

Zeiss 21mm

Sigma 50mm 1.4

I've somewhat researched the Zeiss lenses and am seriously considering the 35 f2 but I wanted to make sure to get other opinions on the quality of the other options mentioned before taking the plunge.

What do you suggest I do? What would you get in my situation? Thanks in advance.

-Claudio

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feppe

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Re: New equipment: need your advice
« Reply #1 on: September 17, 2010, 05:21:41 pm »

Are you positive it's your camera which is preventing you from making better pictures? I know this is LL and all that, but have you considered keeping your current kit and investing in a two-week photography workshop instead?

claude0581

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Re: New equipment: need your advice
« Reply #2 on: September 17, 2010, 07:52:07 pm »

      Without going into too much detail, I am currently an MFA photography student. I've been shooting for over 12 years with everything from medium and large format cameras to 35mm film and digital (not there is never anything new to learn mind you) and have already had some exhibitions.
       
      I can tell you, humbly of course, that within the scope of the work I'm trying to do, my current camera is a limiting factor. I've decided that from here on out, I need to make a fair investment in my equipment. I'm not rich, I still hold a job teaching despite being a full time student, and cannot afford the top tier stuff (shooting with film poses a lot more problems, both economic and material than it would solve) so I have budgeted this amount and want to make a competent decision.

      This is probably more than you needed or maybe wanted to know, but I don't want you or the people on this forum to dismiss me as someone just trying to throw money at his hobby.
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feppe

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Re: New equipment: need your advice
« Reply #3 on: September 17, 2010, 08:05:50 pm »

Fair enough.

You can't go wrong with the 5DII, although I'd wait for Photokina - I doubt there'll be 5DIII but there might be other options. 550D/60D/7D are also great and you can spend more on glass. (Digital) cameras come and go, but glass investment is much more permanent - and good glass can have a bigger impact on IQ than a more expensive camera.

With Zeiss you'll have to do manual focus which might or might not be an issue. In any case you'll probably want a proper focusing screen (ie. more cost).

Also, depending on you current gear, a good tripod and ballhead can make as big an impact on IQ as a new camera or lens.

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: New equipment: need your advice
« Reply #4 on: September 17, 2010, 09:51:26 pm »

I am sure many are not going to like what I am going to say, but with the exception of both 50/1.4 lenses, all other are simply poser lenses, toys for rich boys, with no practical impact whatsoever on the final output (other than for pixel-peeping). What I would do in your place is to get a 24-105 L zoom and perhaps 50/1.8, if you have the need for low light work.

The next thing I am going to say I am sure you are not going to like either: questions like these are the best example for the old saying "if you need to ask, you do not need to know". Assuming you are looking for a single lens (as it appears from your post), you can not possibly be considering 50mm and 21mm at the same time. They are worlds apart in their use. That tells me you are not sure how you are going to use the camera/lens combo. I know you said landscape (and some documentary), but what is your style? Fine art? Travel brochures? Photo wall-paper? Printed how big? How important are fine details (for the artistic message, not for pixel-peeping)... etc, etc?. Once you know answers to questions like these, you would know yourself which lens is the best for you.

Btw, welcome to the board (as much as my tone above may not sound welcoming ;)) I just believe that straight talk is usually the most helpful.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2010, 10:53:19 am by Slobodan Blagojevic »
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: New equipment: need your advice
« Reply #5 on: September 17, 2010, 10:39:37 pm »

Hi,

I'd suggest that for critically focusing the Zeiss lenses live view is needed. Even if the finder screen is replaced how would we know it's perfectly aligned with the film plane?

Lloyd Chambers has some excellent info on Zeiss lenses here: http://www.diglloyd.com/zf/index.html , it's a pay site but certainly worth the money if you want to invest in new lenses.

From what I have seen the Zeiss 21/2.8 is an outstanding lens. Some points I may have:

- Zoom lenses are more flexible
- Most lenses need to be stopped down for quality

Keep in mind that there is a lot of sample variation on lenses. make sure you have a good one. Test it on delivery and send back if it's not OK.

Best regards
Erik
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Rob C

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Re: New equipment: need your advice
« Reply #6 on: September 18, 2010, 03:33:39 am »

I am sure many are not going to like what I am going to say, but with the exception of both 50/1.4 lenses, all other are simply poser lenses, toys for rich boys, with no practical impact whatsoever on the final output (other than for pixel-peeping). What I would do in your place is to get a 24-105 L zoom and perhaps 50/1.8, if you have the need for low light work.

The next thing I am going to say I am sure you are not going to like either: questions like these are the best example for the old saying "if you need to ask, you do not need to know". Assuming you are looking for a single lens (as it appears from your post), you can not possibly be considering 50mm and 21mm at the same time. They are worlds apart in their use. That tells me you are not sure how you are going to use the camera/lens combo. I know you said landscape (and some documentary), but what is your stile? Fine art? Travel brochures? Photo wall-paper? Printed how big? How important are fine details (for the artistic message, not for pixel-peeping)... etc, etc?. Once you know answers to questions like these, you would know yourself which lens is the best for you.

Btw, welcome to the board (as much as my tone above may not sound welcoming ;)) I just believe that straight talk is usually the most helpful.


Slobodan has got it absolutely right.

It is always the same: somebody asks a question about whether to buy an apple or an orange – as if anyone else can possibly advise! – and the bottom line is, as ever, a mix of available cash/credit and purpose.

With boats, they say that if you have to ask what it costs, then you can’t afford it; with cameras and lenses, I’d say that if you have to ask you don’t know what you want to do and, secondly, are far too unprepared to make sensible expenditure of large sums of money.

As with everything in life, and at all ages, you have to understand yourself first, which I admit, isn’t easy, even for a snowflake.

Rob C

claude0581

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Re: New equipment: need your advice
« Reply #7 on: September 18, 2010, 08:51:41 am »

I am sure many are not going to like what I am going to say, but with the exception of both 50/1.4 lenses, all other are simply poser lenses, toys for rich boys, with no practical impact whatsoever on the final output (other than for pixel-peeping). What I would do in your place is to get a 24-105 L zoom and perhaps 50/1.8, if you have the need for low light work.

The next thing I am going to say I am sure you are not going to like either: questions like these are the best example for the old saying "if you need to ask, you do not need to know". Assuming you are looking for a single lens (as it appears from your post), you can not possibly be considering 50mm and 21mm at the same time. They are worlds apart in their use. That tells me you are not sure how you are going to use the camera/lens combo. I know you said landscape (and some documentary), but what is your stile? Fine art? Travel brochures? Photo wall-paper? Printed how big? How important are fine details (for the artistic message, not for pixel-peeping)... etc, etc?. Once you know answers to questions like these, you would know yourself which lens is the best for you.

Btw, welcome to the board (as much as my tone above may not sound welcoming ;)) I just believe that straight talk is usually the most helpful.


Hey Slobodan


I appreciate the straight talk. Frankly speaking if I don't have to spend that much money then I wont, I could use the extra cash to pay rent or buy something other than ramen soup for dinner.

As far as style, think New Topographics but much more flat, if that makes any sense. I've been printing 17x25 but 24x36 would be ideal. Larger than that would be nice but not necessary. I've printed a couple of my newer images at 24x36 and the detail is just not as present at that size, it starts to get mushy quick.

I threw the 21mm lens in there as the odd man out, to see what the responses would be. Since switching to digital I've been shooting with a crop camera, a 35mm prime and a zoom that is 28mm as it's wide end (so about 42 at my widest 52.5 as my standard), hence why I listed mostly 50mm lenses. while I am comfortable at that focal length, I am interested in going wider with my images. A 35mm lens seems like the obvious choice, but the images I have seen from that 21 were stunning. Again stunning but perhaps too wide for what I do. 

Zooms are useful, but I don't like to shoot with them, I find they make me much too schizophrenic. I actually keep my zoom locked at 28mm for that reason, so the 24-105L would be wasted on me.

Lets make this a bit more straight forward. I definitely want a Prime, and from the choices listed the ones I am most interested in are:

on the price high end: 35L, 50 1.2L, Zeiss 50 f2, Zeiss 35 f2

on the price lower end: Zeiss 50 1.4, Canon 1.4, Sigma 50

AF is not a dealbreaker, IQ is. Is the premium on the Zeiss or L's worth it, especially in comparison to the IQ on the less costly lenses? Thanks for your responses.
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futura

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Re: New equipment: need your advice
« Reply #8 on: September 18, 2010, 11:33:47 am »

Hi Claudio,

I've been using the ZE 35mm f2 extensively for portraiture work and for me the micro contrast and saturation beats the majority of my other Canon primes including the 50 1.2. I've not done any extensive studies and comparisons, this is just my opinion when viewing the pics on computer straight from camera without any post processing (no pixel peeping).

But I would suggest shooting with different focal lengths first, working out which one would cover off the highest percentage of what you want to shoot then narrowing it down to manufacturer.

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JeanMichel

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Re: New equipment: need your advice
« Reply #9 on: September 18, 2010, 11:46:27 am »

Hi,

My (insert your lowest currency denomination here) worth comment. When I decided to 'go digital' a couple of years ago I chose the Canon 5D and the 24-105 lens. I made the choice based on much reading and checking many dSLR's at two of the main photo equipment stores in my area; the best deal for the Canon was the 5D and 24-105 package. Before deciding on the 5D I almost purchased a Leica M8 since I have film M cameras and lenses but hesitated because of the smaller sensor and the IR issue -- even this became a known issue I wondered about the purple shirt on the person that Michael Reichmann photographed for his review of the M8. A year later I traded the 5D for a 5D2 for two reasons: the 5D required rather frequent sensor cleaning sessions and my dealer had an excellent trade allowance promotion for the 5D.

There is absolutely no doubt that the 5D or 5D2 with the 24-105 produces excellent files. Much to be said for the IS and AF capabilities of the lens!

Being 'old school' I too prefer fixed focal length lenses and started to look for such for the Canon. Most lenses, at any focal length, are physically close to the size of the 25-105, so except for the larger aperture, what's the point of having them. I wanted physically smaller lenses and eventually found and purchased an f2 40 mm and f3.5 20 mm Voigtlander (there are a few comments on these from me and a couple of other members on the site). These are fairly inexpensive and let me make excellent prints (to date I print on 13 by 19 paper). As far as the prints are concerned, there are no differences in quality in the images made with any of the lenses, 20, 40 or 24-105.

The 24-105 provides me, in a single lens, just about all the focal lengths of my Leica lenses: 21, 35, 50 and 135 - the 35 being the most used. The main disadvantage of the 24-105, other than size, is the danger of getting lazy and using the zoom rather than eye and feet to move to the right place to make the photograph. Still, that is the lens that is usually on the camera.

Finally, it would be rather difficult today to find a camera and lens at just about any price that do not produce sharp, high quality images. Any of the lenses you mention would certainly serve you well -- there are a number of sites that give information on all of these lenses. I did read and check and read and so on and in the end I did settle on the two Voigtlanders, a good choice for my needs, but for you?...

And finally, finally, do use the search feature on the main site, you will find an amazing amount of excellent information on all sorts of equipment, methods, etc.

Jean-Michel

 


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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: New equipment: need your advice
« Reply #10 on: September 18, 2010, 01:06:27 pm »

... As far as style, think New Topographics...

Ok, now we are talking. So, landscapes with man-made objects.

Meaning:

- you need a sharp lens with minimum distortion (i.e., barrel or pincushion)
- shooting around camera/lens optimal f/stop, most likely in the f/5.6-f/11 range
- fast lenses are meaningless here

So here would be my choice:

Canon 50/2.5 (sharpest, least distorting)
Canon 50/1.8 (cheapest, yet perfectly adequate)
Canon 35/2 (if you need something wider)

Meaning:

- a lot of steaks and good wine for dinner :)

Forget the psychobabble about 'micro-contrast', '3-dimensional', '...-magic', 'just-something-words-can-not-describe'. The value of fine art photography is in the subject and the message, not pixel-peeping.

And forget about the fallacy that impressive, macho-looking, impressively priced lens = impressive photography.

Forget also about the no-pain-no-gain fallacy in photography: if only you sacrifice enough for your art, you will be ultimately rewarded.  That is, if by sacrifice you mean spending what you can not afford on a lens you do not need. If by sacrifice you mean staying your artistic course in spite of initial setbacks, then... maybe.



pikeys

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Re: New equipment: need your advice
« Reply #11 on: September 18, 2010, 01:59:53 pm »

Hi Claude,
   
I agree with Slobodan..

If I were you ,I'd get a canon 5D2,24-105 L,50mmF1.8,and maybe,a 70-200L..that's all you really need.

Also,might want to consider a good tripod,I just bought a tripod,ball head,and a monopod from these people:
http://www.feisol.net/.,and I'm amazed at the improvement in some of my images..
It has taught me to slowdown,compose more carefully,and just take my time.

Also,I've been playing with Lightroom for a few years,but I've learned a lot, after I got the video tutorial on Lightrrom 3,available from this website.

I am a serious amateur photographer,and when I was using film,I own,Contax,zeiss lenses,and Leica equipment with summicron lenses.
As posted above,you will need to research German glass closely,and in most cases,give up auto focus
And last but not least...price of German glass is high.,and not so sure it is all that better than the Canon L series lenses.
Other more experienced members can correct me ,if I'm wrong

I wish you luck,
Mike


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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: New equipment: need your advice
« Reply #12 on: September 18, 2010, 02:11:51 pm »

... As posted above,you will need to research German glass closely,and in most cases,give up auto focus
And last but not least...price of German glass is high.,and not so sure it is all that better than the Canon L series lenses...

As for "German", and whatever is attributed to it, it shall be noted that Zeiss lenses today are neither made by Zeiss, nor in Germany, but by Cosina in Japan.

pikeys

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Re: New equipment: need your advice
« Reply #13 on: September 18, 2010, 02:21:46 pm »

Slobodan,

Thanks for the correction...


Mike
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schrodingerscat

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Re: New equipment: need your advice
« Reply #14 on: September 18, 2010, 10:35:26 pm »

Just to avoid any perception that Cosina just slaps a Zeiss label on their own lenses, they are produced on a dedicated line controlled by Zeiss from beginning to end. Much like Leitz's partnership with Minolta years back.

The lenses are engineered, designed, and QC'd by Zeiss. Who also controls the formulation of the glass and coatings, as well as the other materials that go into manufacturing.

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stever

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Re: New equipment: need your advice
« Reply #15 on: September 18, 2010, 11:13:53 pm »

i'd suggest you go ahead with the 5d2 and 24-105 and 50 1.4.  the 24-105 has a variety of issues, but is incredibly useful and with the 5d2 is an enormous step up from a crop-frame camera -- and LR 3 lens correction really helps many of the 24-105 issues, particularly distortion.  the 5o 1.4 is lightweight, compact, gives excellent results from f4 onwards (and if you get a good copy/ send it in to Canon under warranty even good at f2 - don't expect much wide open), and very reasonably priced.  the 24-105 can clarify which other primes you need, and has good resale value if you want to replace it with a prime.

before spending a lot of bucks on expensive primes, i'd recommend subcribing to Lloyd Chamber's tests as suggested already.  then, i'd rent whichever lens you're most interested in from lensrentals.com  - i think that this is particularly important for the Zeiss lenses if you haven't had experience with MF - i think the comment that liveview on a tripod is necessary for critical focus with MF lenses is correct.

what you really need to ask yourself is how badly do you need large apertures artistically or for low light.  do you need edge - edge sharpness at large apertures (this is where it gets really expensive and you may have to give up AF, or pay a lot of money and still not get edge-edge sharpness at large apertures). under what conditions do you need AF?
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feppe

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Re: New equipment: need your advice
« Reply #16 on: September 19, 2010, 05:08:46 am »

i'd suggest you go ahead with the 5d2 and 24-105 and 50 1.4.  the 24-105 has a variety of issues, but is incredibly useful and with the 5d2 is an enormous step up from a crop-frame camera -- and LR 3 lens correction really helps many of the 24-105 issues, particularly distortion.

5D2 is superior in IQ, surely, but enormous step up it's not, and law of diminishing returns has set in especially for OPs shooting subject. According to DXOMark it has only 0.4 EV edge on dynamic range compared to 550D and .2 EV against 7D. It does better with tonal range, and much better at high ISOs, but especially the latter item is probably irrelevant for OPs shooting matter. Factoring in the price of the cameras the differences are put into context.

The OP wants to print up to 36 inches. With 1 inch margins this brings the 5DII to 165 dpi, while the 18 megapixel APS-C cameras are at 152 dpi - negligible difference.

And since price is clearly an important factor, the significant savings one would get from buying a crop sensor camera means he could afford to get much better glass, tripod and ballhead which can make a bigger impact on IQ than camera.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2010, 05:10:25 am by feppe »
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stever

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Re: New equipment: need your advice
« Reply #17 on: September 19, 2010, 09:49:28 am »

i have 20D, 40D, 7D, and 5D2 (also had the 5D which was superior to any of the crop frame cameras).

the 5D2 is an enormous step up from a crop frame camera!
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: New equipment: need your advice
« Reply #18 on: September 19, 2010, 11:29:41 am »

... the 5D2 is an enormous step up from a crop frame camera!

Now that you repeated your claim twice, it surely beats the crap out of any elaborative counter-argument.

Jeremy Roussak

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Re: New equipment: need your advice
« Reply #19 on: September 19, 2010, 12:32:14 pm »

Now that you repeated your claim twice, it surely beats the crap out of any elaborative counter-argument.
Speaking pedantically (as I often do), while he's made the claim twice, he's repeated it only once.

Jeremy
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