Hasselblad tilt shift limit of rise and fall

[B_D]

Hi everyone. I've been working out a shot for my portfolio that requires looking down onto a surface from an angle of around 45 degrees. I'm working out composition/styling etc and will shoot it properly when I have everything to a level i'm satisfied with. However the major issue I can see is that because of the nature of the composition I get massive perspectival distortion. I have access to a h3d 39 and was wondering about using the hts adaptor. I'm not vastly knowledgable about movements and  was wondering how to work out how to calculate what effective angle the 18mm worth of shift would allow. Many thanks.

[JonathanBenoit]

Hi everyone. I've been working out a shot for my portfolio that requires looking down onto a surface from an angle of around 45 degrees. I'm working out composition/styling etc and will shoot it properly when I have everything to a level i'm satisfied with. However the major issue I can see is that because of the nature of the composition I get massive perspectival distortion. I have access to a h3d 39 and was wondering about using the hts adaptor. I'm not vastly knowledgable about movements and  was wondering how to work out how to calculate what effective angle the 18mm worth of shift would allow. Many thanks.

http://www.hasselblad.com/media/1332322/uk_hts_datasheet_v6.pdf
It would allow whatever the specs in the .pdf tell you for the specific lens. Shifting doesnt add a larger angle of view unless you stitch multiple shots together.

[B_D]

Hi thanks for your response. I'm looking to correct perspectival distortion not stitch anything or get a larger angle of view. I had a look at that pdf before i posted; it doesn't answer my question. I set up the shot on my slr and measured off the angle of the lens which was around 45 degrees. I want to replicate the shot but without perspectival distortion so I need to know if I can "look down" at that angle using the hts.

[JonathanBenoit]

Hi thanks for your response. I'm looking to correct perspectival distortion not stitch anything or get a larger angle of view. I had a look at that pdf before i posted; it doesn't answer my question. I set up the shot on my slr and measured off the angle of the lens which was around 45 degrees. I want to replicate the shot but without perspectival distortion so I need to know if I can "look down" at that angle using the hts.

When you say "perspectival distortion" do you mean the lines aren't parallel? This happens when the lens isn't parallel to the surface. There really isn't any work around. You can attempt to use perspective correction in Photoshop, but if you cant take the shot directly over or slightly off center of the surface, you wont be able to adjust for this.
I hope I'm understanding you correctly.

[JonathanBenoit]

When you say "perspectival distortion" do you mean the lines aren't parallel? This happens when the lens isn't parallel to the surface. There really isn't any work around. You can attempt to use perspective correction in Photoshop, but if you cant take the shot directly over or slightly off center of the surface, you wont be able to adjust for this.
I hope I'm understanding you correctly.

oops.. ignore this post.

[B_D]

I think you've misunderstood me again. I understand perspective sistortion. When I say  "I'm not vastly knowledgable about movements " I should really say I'm no view camera whizz but I'm not coming at this utterly ignorant; I've worked as a digi-tech/retoucher for advertising photographers for the last 4 years.  Correcting perspective distortion in Ps is never satisfactory in my experience. The whole point of rise and fall is that you keep the film plane parrallell with the subject while being able to look up/down at it. Does anyone who owns/uses the HTS understand what I'm asking?

[BobDavid]

I've tested it out and it works as advertised. 18mm of shift is pretty generous, especially with a wide angle lens. You might want to contact Michael Ulsaker at Ulsaker Studio. Google Ulsaker Studio and his phone number will come up. He's quite knowledgable and has one available for rental if you're interested in trying it out.

[JonathanBenoit]

you aren't giving much information about the project. I assume it's artwork of some sort and it's on the ground, but we don't know the size of it. This info is necessary to explain options. Either way, you need the lens parallel to the artwork. Rise and fall movements can't correct for that.

+1 Michael Ulsaker

[B_D]

Hi, ok I can see how I might have explained that badly. I'm not correcting for something lying flat on the surface e.g. artwork but for a cube shaped object sitting on the surface, its the verticals of the cube I am correcting for.

[Dick Roadnight]

Hi, ok I can see how I might have explained that badly. I'm not correcting for something lying flat on the surface e.g. artwork but for a cube shaped object sitting on the surface, its the verticals of the cube I am correcting for.

¿So this is like looking at a 3 story building from a 6 story building?

I think you need a 90-100 degree lens with an image circle double the sensor size, (I have just bought a Schneider Apo-Digitar 47XL, which should be Ideal) and a serious view camera like a Sinar.

Just keep the back vertical.

[JonathanBenoit]

Hi, ok I can see how I might have explained that badly. I'm not correcting for something lying flat on the surface e.g. artwork but for a cube shaped object sitting on the surface, its the verticals of the cube I am correcting for.

Yea this isnt possible to do with the HTS. Dick's example is great. You would need a very large image circle. The HTS won't give you the amount of shift you need. At least 48mm of rise and fall to cover the H3D 39 sensor. Depending where you are located, Fotocare in NYC has a Toyo VX23D for rental with plenty of rise and fall. They also have the 47mm that Dick mentioned.

This might be the best case scenario. I think a lot depends on how far you are away from the cube, as well.

[Dick Roadnight]

You would need a very large image circle. The HTS won't give you the amount of shift you need. At least 48mm of rise and fall to cover the H3D 39 sensor.

If  you are looking down at 45 degree, to keep the back vertical, you will need a very wide angle lens - 90 or 100 degrees lens angle/field of view.

[B_D]

Great, thanks for your replies & apologies for not explaining myself clearly in the first instance! Yes like looking at a 3 story building from a 6 story building. I had a feeling this wasn't going to be possible on the hts.  On my initial test the centre of the lens (the front of the lens, not the optical centre) is approx 50 cm above the table top. I was shooting on my mark 3 on a 24-105 @ 24mm. I didn't mark off distance to object but you can imagine its pretty close. Would a sinar P2 or linhof m679 accomodate these movements do you think? If i end up shooting on either of these cameras I wouldn't necessarily be using a hasselblad back but a p30/p45.

[UlfKrentz]

Try to avoid a back equipped with microlenses for this purpose.

Cheers, Ulf

[John.Williams]

I am sure you have read this from the HTS 1.5 lens adapter datasheet, but the maximum tilt is 10 degrees; shift +/- 18mm - rotate 90 degrees for swing.

David Grover from Hasselblad posted HTS images in a related LL article (need to find...)

No problems with shooting on H1/H2, but make sure the body firmware is 9.5.0 for compatibility with the HTS 1.5...also read the xyz settings from the LCD menu for positioning and any further corrections later. Shameless plug: this is a benefit of camera integration - these values are automatically recorded and used in the Hassy digital backs/workflow. It is important to mention, not just an oh-by-the-way...

Current Hasselblad firmware list here http://hotwire-digital.com/training/camerastraining/59-current-hasselblad-firmware

Inspire yourself and take it further,

John

[Doug Peterson]

If i end up shooting on either of these cameras I wouldn't necessarily be using a hasselblad back but a p30/p45.

Try to Absolutely avoid a back equipped with microlenses for this purpose.

Based on your project description my feeling is that "Try to" should be replaced with "Absolutely".

A P30+ will perform very poorly at all with a 47mm XL pushed to the outside of the image circle.

A 40+, P45+, or P65+ woud be the best choice in the Phase One line. Depending on your final image aspect ratio an Aptus-II 10 would have a small advantage in being able to get you "down" the building a bit further than any other back.

I don't think you necessarily have to have a full view camera for this project. A Cambo Wide DS would provide 26mm of fall. This would eliminate concerns brought on when using a full view camera with high resolution digital backs and wide angle lenses (film/lens plate parallelism, standards rigidity, focus precision, recessed lens boards etc).  

We're always happy to help our customers renting or buying backs/lenses to analyze such specifics as field of view, coverage, needed movement range, including taking into account different digital backs and options for stitching 1/2/3/4/6/8/9 shots.

Below is a diagram showing a vertical P65+ frame with 26mm of fall (possible with a Cambo Wide DS oriented normally). If you wanted to shoot a landscape-oriented frame at that level of fall you'd want to fall the back around 20mm and then stitch left/center/right for a 3-frame stitch (no lens movement during the stitch).

In a crunch a Cambo Wide RS or DS could also be turned upside down, though quite a bit awkward this would provide 25mm (RS) or 34mm (DS) of image-falling movement.



Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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