Excited about the Pentax 645D all over again?

[Rob C]

JdeV

But all moving-mirror cameras enjoy problems like that - the bigger the format the worse the problem. The only solution would be to eliminate or, at least, attempt to reduce the kinetic energy that is the slap reaction and that could only be done by slowing down the raising action. So, if you fancy 1 sec. + exposures only...

But look at it this way: if you use a camera whose tripod hole is pretty well centrally mounted below the mirror box, a tripod whose plate holds the camera directly above that central column, then the slapping action would have to be attempting to lift the entire camera upwards and as it can't do that when using a solid, rigid, high-mass tripod à la original Gitzos, there should be no movement possible. The same solution should solve fp shutter bounce in some cameras, just as long as they have vertical running shutters and are not turned on their sides... all in all, Compur-type dynamics must be better. Sort of makes me think of attempting to lift one's self by tugging the shoelaces; you sure won't create upward movement, but you might still fall over. As with cameras, you can't win.

Rob C

[tsjanik]

Forgive me if this has been covered before but does anyone know what the mirror slap and shutter lag are like on this Pentax?

If you search this site, you'll find Michael did a test of the film 645N II; basically no mirror slap.  In any event, the 645D has a dedicated MLU botton (are you listening Canon?)

[wolfbellw.]

i just had it in my hand yesterday at photokina.
it is supposed to be in the shops end of this year/early next year.
though its a pretty ugly camera it felt good in my hand.
handling is great, mirrow slap hardly noticable, autofocus appears
pretty fast and precise.
all this is definitely subjective,
since i played around with it for about 5 minutes.
the lcd is finally the way you expect a lcd of a professional camera.
magnifying the images is much much faster than my leaf back.
price in germany will be around 11.000 euro i was told including the
55mm and taxes. so its not that cheap as everybody hoped.
right now there is only one new lens, others - i was told probably a 35mm -
are supposed to follow next year,  but no ls-lenses,
no shift in the forseeable future.

[Terry Cooney]

Well, like some others who may be hovering here, as an advanced amateur, I'll likely pick one up as soon as more kindly souls have vetted it a bit. Viewing the most RAW-like images I could find is what did it for me. Wow. Also considering the H3/4-31, but it just seems the Pentax is a bit more 'practical' somehow.

However, does anyone know what lenses Pentax will release in the future? I see a bunch on ebay, but if somehow they release 'improved' D models, I'd like to go down that path instead.

About rip-off-Europe: has traveling to the states for purchases (maybe one with a low sales tax) offset the price + VAT?

[JdeV]

JdeV

But all moving-mirror cameras enjoy problems like that - the bigger the format the worse the problem. The only solution would be to eliminate or, at least, attempt to reduce the kinetic energy that is the slap reaction and that could only be done by slowing down the raising action. So, if you fancy 1 sec. + exposures only...


Rob C

One might think that bigger formats are worse for mirror slap but that just isn't the case. The Mamiya RZ can be hand held at 1/60th or less. Lag is perfectly acceptable too (certainly as good or better than the much lauded Contax).

Even more extreme, when I owned a Graflex Super D 5"x4" SLR, I could hand hold it at a 1/30th and get perfect results. (There was quite a lag on that though).
Hasselblads, new and old, all suck in this regard though.

[feppe]

About rip-off-Europe: has traveling to the states for purchases (maybe one with a low sales tax) offset the price + VAT?

It did when EUR was around 1.5 USD; you could pay off the flight with savings from pretty modest purchases - nowadays you'll have to do the math to ensure you break even. The main problem is warranty repairs, so make sure you get global coverage.

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

Shutter can also cause vibrations. I had great difficulty with my Pentax 67 on my Manfrotto C55 tripod - even with MLU -
the problem "went away" when I switched to a Velbon carbon fibre tripod weighting less than half.


The vibrations on the Pentax were horizontal, so it was pretty clear it was caused by the shutter and not the mirror.

Best regards
Erik

[Rob C]

The vibrations on the Pentax were horizontal, so it was pretty clear it was caused by the shutter and not the mirror.

Best regards
Erik

That's exactly what I found with my own 67 11; as I always had the thing on a tripod and used MU it could only have been the shutter. A pity, really, because it was a beautiful camera and very well made. Except for the loading... and the unloading. Scared me every time though I did not, ever, actually drop a film.

Rob C

[stewarthemley]

Even more extreme, when I owned a Graflex Super D 5"x4" SLR, I could hand hold it at a 1/30th and get perfect results. (There was quite a lag on that though).
Hasselblads, new and old, all suck in this regard though.

For quite a while Hasselblads have used a shutter delay to minimise mirror slap. There are several levels of delay and they are surprisingly effective. One more area where Hasselblad are using innovative techniques that help in the real world. Like introducing True Focus, which is manifestly better than multiple focus points that will probably not be exactly where you need them.

[BernardLanguillier]

For quite a while Hasselblads have used a shutter delay to minimise mirror slap. There are several levels of delay and they are surprisingly effective. 

If I am not mistaken this shutter delay is between the up movement of the mirror and the start of the shutter movement, right?

It is clearly useful, and the implementation of Hassy is IMHO best in class, but it is not related to shutter induced vibrations. Now, since the H series relies mostly on lead shutter lenses, shutter vibrations are mostly not a problem in the first place.

Cheers,
Bernard

[BJL]

As I mentioned in another thread,the Pentax 645D is officially going global in December:
news with pricing at DPReview

[stewarthemley]

If I am not mistaken this shutter delay is between the up movement of the mirror and the start of the shutter movement, right?

It is clearly useful, and the implementation of Hassy is IMHO best in class, but it is not related to shutter induced vibrations. Now, since the H series relies mostly on lead shutter lenses, shutter vibrations are mostly not a problem in the first place.

Cheers,
Bernard

Yes, it delays the firing of the shutter till the vibrations have ceased to interfere significantly. But if you use the camera on a tripod the best approach (IMO) is to program a simple sequence: mirror up, few seconds delay to let it settle then fire shutter and mirror down. Real easy to do - must be if I can do it! With leaf shutters and an averagely steady tripod vibrations just aren't a problem, even with a 300 lens.

[Streetshooter]

Yes, it delays the firing of the shutter till the vibrations have ceased to interfere significantly. But if you use the camera on a tripod the best approach (IMO) is to program a simple sequence: mirror up, few seconds delay to let it settle then fire shutter and mirror down. Real easy to do - must be if I can do it! With leaf shutters and an averagely steady tripod vibrations just aren't a problem, even with a 300 lens.

What happens if the subject is moving ?   Model, child or animal etc.  Surely you just have to get used to the mirror slap like it or not !  I always use the heaviest tripod possible when using my V system bodies. Damn thing must weigh fifty pounds or more !

Pete

[Rob C]

V-Sytem usage, with the max. of a 500th sec exposure (if lucky) was never much good for movement, and neither was the camera itself. The fp shuttered models might have been better, but the only way I knew how to stop action with a V was in the studio with electronic flash.

But for what they did do, they seemed unbeatable cameras.

Rob C

[stewarthemley]

What happens if the subject is moving ?   Model, child or animal etc.  Surely you just have to get used to the mirror slap like it or not !  I always use the heaviest tripod possible when using my V system bodies. Damn thing must weigh fifty pounds or more !

Pete

Good question! Obviously we're talking handheld, rather than tripod (because you can use mirror-up), and that's basically what it's designed for. I'm not good at keeping steady with any camera when handholding, some people just aren't, but it really does help. The delay is very small, I can't detect any difference between the longest and shortest delay settings, but I can see improved sharpness in the middle to longest delays. I suppose they would affect the image if the subject is moving fast, but then MF is hopeless at that anyway, whatever your gear. I don't detect any blur in the moving subjects I have taken. Talking about normal walking speeds, portraits with people moving normally. This isn't an advert for Hasselblad, simply a feature I have found actually works like it claims. Cheers.

[ndevlin]

Forgive me if this has been covered before but does anyone know what the mirror slap and shutter lag are like on this Pentax?

The mirror mechanism is very smooth. As good or just slightly better than the 645NII. I think it will be slightly better than the 'Blad, but whether this translates to anything in practice remains to be seen. I will be very interested to test the camera with a 300mm lens at  1/15th.

The camera is also very responsive. Think dslr.

I will put these items on my test agenda for when I get the camera in the next couple of weeks.

- N.

[abiggs]

I shot with it at Photokina this week, and I was very impressed with just about everything the camera offers. The menu / LCD, handling, shutter slap, autofocus, etc etc. To me the proof is in the pudding with the file quality. I think the Hasselblad H4D 31 pricing is going to seriously affect the viability of the 645D, primarily because of the installed base and known quality of the lenses. I haven't seen a Pentax 645 lens on a shelf in quite a few years, and their marketing online is very slim with regards to what is actually available.

The 645D has more DNA of a 35mm DSLR than a medium format camera, and I think that is a good thing.

[Eruditass]

Forgive me if this has been covered before but does anyone know what the mirror slap and shutter lag are like on this Pentax?

The H series are nice cameras but for terrible mirror slap (and unreliability). If the Pentax is significantly better in this respect that makes it even more attractive.

"The Camera Store" did a review and claim that most of the vibrations are felt after the exposure, which I guess means they focused on dampening the flip up.  Their review is quite ecstatic.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wPD1wRpels&feature=player_embedded

[Rob C]

"The Camera Store" did a review and claim that most of the vibrations are felt after the exposure, which I guess means they focused on dampening the flip up.  Their review is quite ecstatic.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wPD1wRpels&feature=player_embedded

I think accepting this depends more on suspension of belief in mechanical reality than of vibrations; "hold your reactions, pet, we are exposing for the next millisec!"

Rob C

[BJL]

"The Camera Store" did a review and claim that most of the vibrations are felt after the exposure, which I guess means they focused on dampening the flip up.

That is what was said of the Pentax 645 film cameras' clever mirror mechanism: the mirror rise causes little vibration until its "hits the top" and starts returning, which does not starts until a split second after the shutter release, and so does not affect image quality.