First impresson Harman by Hahnemuhle by a fan of Harman FB AI.

[stevegoldenberg]

Thought I'd share some quick impressions of these two papers:  I spent months over the last two years comparing a myriad of different papers on the Epson 4800 and now the Epson 3880 searching for the paper that I feel had the greatest tonal range, most sharpness and best "pop" to the look of its images.  I quickly landed on the Baryta papers as the best of the bunch and I have tested almost all of them.  After this first test I came to love the Harman FB AI.  It produces deep, oily blacks, delicate highlights and a beautiful glossy surface that is incredibly similar to my old fiber prints from my days printing B&W in the dark room.  I liked to challenge my silver-printing friends that a B&W Harman from an Epson printer could hold up to a selenium-tone silver print. 

So, I know this paper really well. 

I was understandably concerned to learn that Harman was discontinuing the paper and launching a new brand with Hahnemuhle.  I ordered my first pack last week and began testing it.  So far, I think I can say that this has been an improvement to the paper.  Here are my specific observations:
- The surface texture looks the same to me.  If there are any differences they are not visible to my eyes.
- The Hahnemuhle has lower gloss differential than the FB AI, which is a pleasant surprise.  The FB AI already had excellent gloss differential but this new paper makes it almost non-existent.
- The Hahnemuhle has more contrast than the FB AI.  This is a welcome addition but you'll have to be careful with images you print on it to make sure the contrast doesn't push your blacks too deep.
- The Hahnemuhle has significantly more gamut in red colors.  I noticed this on a very red image of mine where the new paper made a previously over-exposed red look beautiful.  This should be great for anyone shooting people.
- The Hahnemuhle responds slightly less to greens than the FB AI.  It's VERY slight - maybe 1-2% - and only really shows up in the lower tonal ranges.  I checked the profile gamut in ColorSync utility and it validates what I see - there is more yellow and green in the FB AI.

So, for any of you thinking of sticking with Harman, I would easily recommend it. 

-Steve G

[Paul Sumi]

Steve,

Thanks for your review, I've used the "old" version but have not yet tried the new paper.

Are you using Hahnemuhle's profile for this paper, the old one by Harman, or your own custom profile?

Paul

[stevegoldenberg]

Are you using Hahnemuhle's profile for this paper, the old one by Harman, or your own custom profile?

Paul

Great question - I was going to add this as an addendum:  I first used the Hahnemuhle profile for this paper but found it's not very good.  The blacks are a pretty blocked up on it and have some blue contamination (especially obvious in B&W images).  I tried the old Harman FB AI (that came from the company) with it and it looks gorgeous.  So, until I can test a homemade profile I'm going to use the Harman FB AI profile instead.

[David Lozoya]

Which Harman by Hahnemuhle paper are you talking about? I just recently bought the 3880 and am searching for that right combo myself...and like you have been drawn to the Baryta papers. I will mostly print color but maybe some black and white too. 

[Kirk Gittings]

How does the base color compare?

[narikin]

I know I have to get a sample myself to try but, meanwhile:

base white - very bright or mid or warmish?
surface - some stipple at all, or very smooth?
OBA's - none/weak/moderate/high?

thanks for the info otherwise. agree with you about Baryta's, though I stay away from the warm/creamy ones personally.

[stevegoldenberg]

Which Harman by Hahnemuhle paper are you talking about? I just recently bought the 3880 and am searching for that right combo myself...and like you have been drawn to the Baryta papers. I will mostly print color but maybe some black and white too. 

DavidLozoya - This is the new paper:  http://harman.hahnemuehle.com/site/en/807/home.html

[stevegoldenberg]

base white - very bright or mid or warmish?
surface - some stipple at all, or very smooth?
OBA's - none/weak/moderate/high?

The base color to my eye is pretty much neutral white with just a hint of warmth to it.  But, make no mistake it's a WHITE paper, it's not creamy at all.  The older Harman FB AI was a tad cooler than this one.  Honestly I don't think I'd notice unless the papers were side-by-side.

The surface is very smooth, it's nearly identical to the Harman FB AI and reminds me of true Fiber paper from the dark room (as it should since it uses the Baryta clays just like silver paper did).  It's not a high gloss like you'd get from a c-print.

I believe there are some OBAs in the paper but I honestly don't know.  The Wilhelm longevity tests of the old Harman are exceptional, I believe.

[nilo]

The base color to my eye is pretty much neutral white with just a hint of warmth to it.  But, make no mistake it's a WHITE paper, it's not creamy at all.  The older Harman FB AI was a tad cooler than this one.  Honestly I don't think I'd notice unless the papers were side-by-side.

The surface is very smooth, it's nearly identical to the Harman FB AI and reminds me of true Fiber paper from the dark room (as it should since it uses the Baryta clays just like silver paper did).  It's not a high gloss like you'd get from a c-print.

I believe there are some OBAs in the paper but I honestly don't know.  The Wilhelm longevity tests of the old Harman are exceptional, I believe.

To my eyes too, the surface is like the old one. It's close to Canson's Baryta Photographique, if that helps.

But it's full of OBA/FBAs. The Warmtone version is a bit better, but still. Check here Ernst Dinkla's SpectrumViz for example http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm

The Warmtone paper did not perform well in the Wilhelm tests, compared to similar papers, with 57years. The plain version did better with 77years. I think we'll have to wait for the Aardenburg results, which have been promised to come out soon.

I also like the surface of this paper a lot, and printed extensively on it, but I found the Canson Baryta Photographique to be a better compromise in regard to longevity and brighteners. My new favorite is the Hahnemuhle Photo Rag Pearl 320g. It's smooth and free of OBA/FBAs. It is 100% cotton rag and has a very pleasant heavy feel.

kind regards

nino

[narikin]

My new favorite is the Hahnemuhle Photo Rag Pearl 320g. It's smooth and free of OBA/FBAs. It is 100% cotton rag and has a very pleasant heavy feel.
nino

do tell more please Nino!
It looks similar to Canson Platine on Ernst's plots, no OBA's, perhaps a little warmer at the red end, but why the switch from Canson (Baryta or Platine) to make this a favorite?

the word 'pearl' bothers me - (bad memories of Pearl photo papers...) is it more of less stippled than Platine?

[nilo]

do tell more please Nino!
It looks similar to Canson Platine on Ernst's plots,

yes, and also similar to the champion, HM PR Baryta.

no OBA's, perhaps a little warmer at the red end, but why the switch from Canson (Baryta or Platine) to make this a favorite?

Well, the salesman showed it to me  Yes, I new it was an interesting paper, but, like you, I was afraid of the word "Pearl"

the word 'pearl' bothers me - (bad memories of Pearl photo papers...) is it more of less stippled than Platine?

The one thing that bothers me with Platine is the stipples, the one thing with the Baryta Photographique is that it feels a little bit cheap(er. Ok, still like high class photo paper...) HM PR Pearl is 320g! The back has a rough texture. It feels heavy. It has a pearl finish with no stipples. It is natural white in color, but bright. I work in color with K3VM and HDR, and prints come a very nice. Withstands any visual comparison, if not better...

I have only one regret: Why did I get to see this paper only now?! (I should say: why didn't I listen to the distributor earlier?)

[BradSmith]

Steve G,

Maybe I missed it, but I, like David, couldn't figure out which Harman by H paper you, and everyone else are talking about.   The link you posted takes you to the generic home page of Harman by H, and the Products tab there leads you to 7 different Harman by H papers.  Are you talking about Gloss Baryta perhaps?

Brad



Quote from: DavidLozoya on September 05, 2010, 05:08:08 PM
Which Harman by Hahnemuhle paper are you talking about? I just recently bought the 3880 and am searching for that right combo myself...and like you have been drawn to the Baryta papers. I will mostly print color but maybe some black and white too. 

DavidLozoya - This is the new paper:  http://harman.hahnemuehle.com/site/en/807/home.html

[leuallen]

I too am confused. 'showed it to me' - what is it? 'Why did I get to see this paper only now?' what is this.

Larry

[nilo]

I too am confused. 'showed it to me' - what is it? 'Why did I get to see this paper only now?' what is this.

Larry

[...]My new favorite is the Hahnemuhle Photo Rag Pearl 320g. It's smooth and free of OBA/FBAs. It is 100% cotton rag and has a very pleasant heavy feel.[...]

[...] HM PR Pearl is 320g! The back has a rough texture. It feels heavy. It has a pearl finish with no stipples. It is natural white in color, but bright. I work in color with K3VM and HDR, and prints come a very nice. Withstands any visual comparison, if not better...

I have only one regret: Why did I get to see this paper only now?! (I should say: why didn't I listen to the distributor earlier?)

regards
nino

[narikin]

... the one thing with the Baryta Photographique is that it feels a little bit cheap(er. Ok, still like high class photo paper...) HM PR Pearl is 320g! The back has a rough texture. It feels heavy. It has a pearl finish with no stipples. It is natural white in color, but bright. I work in color with K3VM and HDR, and prints come a very nice. Withstands any visual comparison, if not better...

Thanks Nino, useful.

I will try it - seems like we have similar tastes and you make it sound worth the experiment. You using Hahn's generic profile? The one point I would personally ignore is the 'feel' - nobody feels the paper except me - once it is framed, thats the end of it, and I don't wish to discard some really great Alpha Cellulose Baryta papers on these grounds.

Apologies if we are confusing people, we moved from discussing 'Harman by Hahnemuhle', to Hahnemuhle's own  'Photo Rag Pearl 320g'.  It's all about high quality photo inkjet papers though.

[nilo]

Thanks Nino, useful.

I will try it - seems like we have similar tastes and you make it sound worth the experiment. You using Hahn's generic profile?

Yes, for the moment. If I'll use it a lot, I'll let build a custom profile. I just don't know yet who to choose this time for that delicate task.  

The one point I would personally ignore is the 'feel' - nobody feels the paper except me - once it is framed, thats the end of it, and I don't wish to discard some really great Alpha Cellulose Baryta papers on these grounds.

You are so right on this, BUT when your costumer touches the paper and you are able to use this feel, for various reasons and arguments, to sell the print much higher, than for me the feel is worth gold (literally  )

Apologies if we are confusing people, we moved from discussing 'Harman by Hahnemuhle', to Hahnemuhle's own  'Photo Rag Pearl 320g'.  It's all about high quality photo inkjet papers though.

thanks for sharing!

regards
nino

[stevegoldenberg]

Steve G,

Maybe I missed it, but I, like David, couldn't figure out which Harman by H paper you, and everyone else are talking about.   The link you posted takes you to the generic home page of Harman by H, and the Products tab there leads you to 7 different Harman by H papers.  Are you talking about Gloss Baryta perhaps?

Brad

Brad et al,

Sorry for the confusion.  The "old" Harman was called "Harman Photo Baryta FB AI": http://www.harman-inkjet.com/products/product.asp?n=67&t=HARMAN+PHOTO+BARYTA++FB 

That's the one that has been discontinued.   The "new" paper is the "Harman by Hahnemuhle Gloss Baryta"   http://harman.hahnemuehle.com/site/en/834/gloss-baryta.html

Also, I buy all my paper from Shades of Paper - http://www.shadesofpaper.com/  -  they deserve a shout out because Jim, Erik and the rest of the people I talk with there are excellent.  Highly recommended (I have no connection to them, just a very happy customer).

[BradSmith]

Thanks Steve, for clearing it up.

[stevegoldenberg]

All, I just wrote an email to another photographer with some more details on this paper that I thought I'd share.  His question was about 250-sheet packs of Harman by Hahnemule, which I haven't seen.  To anyone from the company on the forum - please make two things:
1)  Larger packs of paper
2)  17X25 cut sheets so we can print 16X24!

For me, I haven't seen the new Harman paper sold in anything but 30 cut-sheet packs.   I have found a comprimise though:  Harman makes a paper called CrystalJet which is much glossier and much lighter weight than the Baryta - I'd compare the paper thickness to Epson Lustre, though the surface is glossy - that I use for proofing of the Baryta.  The color, black depth and sharpness of the Crystal Jet is extremely close to the Baryta so it works really well as a proof.  Also, it's much cheaper and you can buy it in 250 sheet packs.

Here's where I buy my CJ:
http://www.shadesofpaper.com/product_info.php?cPath=35&products_id=424

Here's where I buy my Harman by Hahnemule Baryta:
http://www.shadesofpaper.com/product_info.php?cPath=81&products_id=604

As I mentioned about printing profiles for the new HbH, I have decided to use the old Harman profile.  The profile I downloaded from HbH blocks up in the deep shadows and also introduces a cyan tint to the deep shadow. The visual effect is that for some images without lots of deep shadow, the image looks somewhat contrastier.  However, for images with lots of deep shadow, the image looks flatter. 

Here's how I tested:  I took two images, one color with most of the image in the midtones and one B&W image with lots of shadow detail and printed two copies, one with the old Harman FB AI profile and one with the HbH profile.  It was instantly clear to me that I prefer the look of the old FB AI profile.  I'd invest a few sheets of paper in that test and see what you prefer.  Also, for color, I found the profiles almost identical to my eye (with the exception of that slight cyan tint in the shadows I mentioned).

-Steve

[narikin]

Steve, you are beginning to sound like a promoter of Shades of Paper!

They are very good, and I use them often myself, BUT a word of caution - their prices vary a lot according to your negotiation skills.
Their online list price is one thing, ok to typical, the price you pay after haggling is better if you are ordering more/bigger quantities, and the price someone else with better negotiating skills than I pays, is probably better again!

Atlex may be an anonymous clearance warehouse, but their prices are rock bottom, and clearly given on the web for all to see.
SoP will often charge you many dollars more per box/roll if you dont price compare each and every item.  Continuously.  If there is a reduction, they will carry on at the last price you paid until you spot the drop.  Caveat emptor!