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Author Topic: Archival or even semi-archival dye printers?  (Read 4397 times)

Shark_II

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Archival or even semi-archival dye printers?
« on: September 02, 2010, 10:40:03 am »

Newbie question on dye printers.  Are there any out there that even come close to "archival" fade resistance?  How about if nearly always protected from light as in a photo album?

TIA
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DarkPenguin

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Re: Archival or even semi-archival dye printers?
« Reply #1 on: September 02, 2010, 12:53:47 pm »

Try checking Ardenburg Imaging for fade testing.  You might have to spend a little $$ ($25) to get all the info (for a year).

http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com/

So far as I know no dye print can be considered archival.
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Dano Steinhardt

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Re: Archival or even semi-archival dye printers?
« Reply #2 on: September 02, 2010, 01:15:16 pm »

(I'm the Marketing Manager for Epson and can only speak to Epson products in regards to your question)

10-11 years ago, dye-based inks were known for excellent quality but not for lightfastness.  ("Archival" is not a technical term since it cannot be measured but lightfastness can be predicted through accelerated testing)

Professionals were looking for the quality of a dye-based ink but with greater print permanence.

This led to improvements over the years with pigment based-inks which are used today by the majority of Pros and Serious Amateurs.

But in the past few years lightfastness improvements have also made to an inkset used in the Stylus Photo 1400.

The link below is to Wilhelm Imaging Research's (WIR) report on the dye-based inkset in the 1400.  

If you are not familiar with WIR, they are an independent 3rd party that publishes permanence data for inks and papers from many manufacturers using the De-facto Industry Accepted Test Practice for Lightfastness.

With this particular dye-based ink, prints on three tested papers, are predicted to last 97- 98 years before there is noticeable fading.

http://www.wilhelm-research.com/epson/SP1400.html
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Ernst Dinkla

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Re: Archival or even semi-archival dye printers?
« Reply #3 on: September 02, 2010, 06:33:08 pm »

(I'm the Marketing Manager for Epson and can only speak to Epson products in regards to your question)

10-11 years ago, dye-based inks were known for excellent quality but not for lightfastness.  ("Archival" is not a technical term since it cannot be measured but lightfastness can be predicted through accelerated testing)

Professionals were looking for the quality of a dye-based ink but with greater print permanence.

This led to improvements over the years with pigment based-inks which are used today by the majority of Pros and Serious Amateurs.

But in the past few years lightfastness improvements have also made to an inkset used in the Stylus Photo 1400.

The link below is to Wilhelm Imaging Research's (WIR) report on the dye-based inkset in the 1400. 

If you are not familiar with WIR, they are an independent 3rd party that publishes permanence data for inks and papers from many manufacturers using the De-facto Industry Accepted Test Practice for Lightfastness.

With this particular dye-based ink, prints on three tested papers, are predicted to last 97- 98 years before there is noticeable fading.

http://www.wilhelm-research.com/epson/SP1400.html

There is no hard boundary between the categories dye and pigment colorants in inkjet printing. I recall the Epson docs when the Claria inkset was introduced and not all references to pigment were removed in that publication. I very much got the impression that Claria is more a hybrid between the two categories than the common dye colorant we are familiar with. I was not the only one with that suspicion. Typical dye inks can in some cases deliver a good but not excellent fade resistance with compatible (gloss, satin) papers but are no competition to pigment inks. HP's Vivera dye for example. Claria falls somewhere in between.

Wilhelm doesn't use the term archival but he has a test "album/dark storage" and years of life expectancy for that condition. About 200 years for some papers with Claria. The same for HP Vivera dye but only results on glossy papers so far. There is a strange thing happening with many tests at Wilhelm's labs, some never end or the test results never make it to the PDF docs later on so one can see "now in test" 5 years after the results of the other tests are published. Wilhelm hardly tests inks outside the product ranges of the big three printer manufacturers. 10 years ago that was a bit different. There has been a more recent (4-5 years ago?) 3rd parties produced dye inks test in WR's publications but many got the impression that in that case a selection was made to show the worst side of that industry and it is still unclear who paid for that test. Many manufacturers is an exaggeration in my opinion.


met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla

Try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/
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Dano Steinhardt

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Re: Archival or even semi-archival dye printers?
« Reply #4 on: September 03, 2010, 05:46:47 pm »

After checking with colleagues, I received confirmation that the Claria inkset is dye and not pigment based.

Unrelated to WIR, the word "Archival" does not seem to have a true scientific definition.  Archival implies a certain degree of longevity but with no specific specs.

For those new to the subject, Print Permanence is more than just lightfastness and includes other factors such as gaseous pollutants (ozone), waterfastness, yellowing, dark-keeping, OBAs etc.

Per the question about albums, many would consider an album to be dark storage.   With many (not all) ink and paper combinations, dark storage usually and intuitively increases lightfastness.  But other factors could degrade the the print in dark storage if paper is not lignin and acid free or if the album itself contained materials that were not acid free.

All these factors, not just the ink, should be considered in order to make an informed decision.

Dan Steinhardt
Epson America Marketing Manager Professional Imaging
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Shark_II

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Re: Archival or even semi-archival dye printers?
« Reply #5 on: September 03, 2010, 07:34:57 pm »

I can see that by using the term "Archival" I got everyone off on a tangent discussing definitions.

To simplify, are there dye-based large format (accepting roll paper) printers out there whose prints last as well as, say, regular lab prints?  And because I already know paper has a lot to do with it, I will further say "using OEM papers".

How's that?

TIA
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DarkPenguin

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Re: Archival or even semi-archival dye printers?
« Reply #6 on: September 03, 2010, 08:14:30 pm »

Define "regular lab prints".
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Gemmtech

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Re: Archival or even semi-archival dye printers?
« Reply #7 on: September 03, 2010, 08:34:40 pm »

If you are talking about sizes <13" then I would say buy the Epson 1400, it's basically an updated 1280, just faster, individual ink cartridges and YES, they are dye based.  I have 10 year old photos printed with an Epson 1280 (still works and I use it) that look great and I've had some fade dramatically after just a couple of months. Under glass, in a photo album, coated with a lacquer etc helps keep the prints looking new!  I've never had any issues with the 1400.  I wish somebody could make a large format dye printer; no bronzing, no GD.  It seems to me "We" take 3 steps forward and 2 back!  I hate looking at white water or a bright sun printed with pigment ink, unless it's coated.  And, the pigment inks still can't compete with dye blacks, admittedly not many images require BLACK-BLACK
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MHMG

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Re: Archival or even semi-archival dye printers?
« Reply #8 on: September 03, 2010, 09:12:32 pm »


To simplify, are there dye-based large format (accepting roll paper) printers out there whose prints last as well as, say, regular lab prints?  And because I already know paper has a lot to do with it, I will further say "using OEM papers".
TIA

As far as I know, Epson does not have a printer larger than 13" wide (the Epson R1400) that uses the most recent Claria dye set (perhaps Dano can confirm my remark or enlighten us if a wider carriage Epson model exists that can use the Claria dye formulation). Hp Vivera dye inks have been (and I think still are ) available in some 17 and possibly 24 inch Designjet models. Both the Claria dye set and the Hp Vivera dye set offer tremendous improvements in lightfastness, ozone resistance, and humidity fastness over the predecessor dye sets when using select papers.  Fujifilm produces a dye set from it's Sericol subsidiary that is also on a par with Claria and Vivera dyes in terms of fade resistance and initial color gamut, but AFIK it is only available for the Fuji 400DL drylab series of photofinishing machines. Noritsu's drylab machines, as I understand it, use Epson dye technology, probably Claria or a close variant of it, but again, no wide format print capability seems to be available.

In Aardenburg testing, the Claria dye set when combined with appropriate media, is very comparable in early stage light fading rates to the very best traditional chromogenic color processes (aka, "regular lab prints" made on modern color photographic papers like Fuji Crystal Archive II"). However, Claria exhibits a non linear fading behavior which turns out to be a good thing for the typical photo consumer because the rate of fade slows down after an early initial stage of light exposure whereas traditional color prints continue to fade at about the same rate until they are badly faded. What this means to the consumer is that Claria clearly outperforms "regular lab print" technology when the fade rating is based on more easily noticeable levels of fade. Claria's weak link is the yellow dye, but again, the yellow fade rate slows down after an early initial hit. This non linear fading performance that is shown in the AaI&A test documents confirms what Epson itself published in a technical paper about Claria dye fade behavior. That technical paper used to be available on the web here:

http://global.epson.com/newsroom/tech_news/tnl0611single.pdf

Unfortunately, the page has been removed, and I was unable to find this pdf document elsewhere on the Epson website.  

Because the Wilhelm ratings are derived from a single endpoint factor for "easily noticeable fade" the early stages of fading in both the Claria and HP dye sets that would be of concern to more discriminating end-users  are not factored into the WIR test ratings. Hence, both sets look like they are close to or on a par with pigmented ink sets in terms of fade resistance, but if you look at the total fading curve behavior, pigmented systems like Epson K3, K3VM or HDR, Canon Lucia, or Hp Vivera Pigmented ink, are in fact superior over all for fine art applications where an appropriate test score should be based on little or no noticeable fade rather than easily noticeable fade. This reality is a major part of the reason, IMHO, why Epson, Canon, and Hp have all concentrated on pigmented ink systems for the professional photography and fine art market despite other technical challenges like bronzing and differential gloss.

To summarize, all the major pigmented systems from the OEMs show better early stage and mid-stage light fade performance which is why it can be misleading to cite only consumer toleranced test scores for "display life" when comparing dye-based systems to pigment-based systems. If you are concerned about your prints retaining excellent color and tonal accuracy over time then high quality pigmented ink sets are currently the best solution despite other drawbacks, yet dyes are indeed getting better and better, and thus they still have a strong presence in the consumer photography market.

kind regards,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
« Last Edit: September 03, 2010, 09:59:33 pm by MHMG »
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Dano Steinhardt

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Re: Archival or even semi-archival dye printers?
« Reply #9 on: September 03, 2010, 11:07:38 pm »

Mark is correct, [Hi Mark] the widest printer using the dye-based Claria inks is the 1400 which is 13 inches wide.

Dan (Dano) Steinhardt
Epson America, Inc
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Wayne Fox

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Re: Archival or even semi-archival dye printers?
« Reply #10 on: September 04, 2010, 02:50:18 am »

I can see that by using the term "Archival" I got everyone off on a tangent discussing definitions.

To simplify, are there dye-based large format (accepting roll paper) printers out there whose prints last as well as, say, regular lab prints?  And because I already know paper has a lot to do with it, I will further say "using OEM papers".

How's that?

TIA
If by regular "lab" prints you are referring to those made by companies such as WHCC, mPix, or places like Costco or Walgreens - photo color labs, then you are referring to silver halide based photo paper, which is basically the same technology used before digital and exposed with negatives, now exposed with lasers or LED's. In this case there might be dye based inksets that deliver similar or even better results, since color photo paper doesn't perform that well for extreme lengths of time.

If you are looking for the longest lasting possibilities to be used in producing an "archival" final product, pigment inkjet is the choice.  If you feel the several decades or more that current silver halide technology like this is adequate , there may indeed by some dye based solutions out there ... I defer to Dan, Mark, and Ernst on that.

As far as the definition of "archival", to me the term has always been more a description of a process in which one tries to achieve the maximum longevity out of something, which by necessity would include all aspects of production and storage.  So to me you might try to make an "archival" image, meaning you would select the best paper and printing process, the best mounting and storage processes to give you the maximum possible life of that product when exposed to all possible conditions that might degrade the product. You might have to make decisions that even compromise the product in the beginning in an effort to ensure it will last as long as possible (such as using a non OBA paper).   I've never felt there was a precise definition, since it really describes a process of which individual component must all be tested as well as tested together.  The term is often used to describe one of processes (such as the ink), so much of the discussion about the term might be informative and helpful in the learning process, but I think most understand what a person means when they ask which ink is more archival, even if the term  might not be technically correct.
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Shark_II

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Re: Archival or even semi-archival dye printers?
« Reply #11 on: September 04, 2010, 11:02:10 am »

Um, OK guys, you win.  I'll bow out now and you folks can argue definitions all you like.

There were zero large format dye-based printers taking roll papers offered as suggestions in this thread so apparently there aren't any.  Printers that only take 13x19 sheet paper are not "large format" printers.  Argue about the definition of THAT too while you are at it.

Have a nice day.

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DarkPenguin

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Re: Archival or even semi-archival dye printers?
« Reply #12 on: September 04, 2010, 11:12:24 am »

Lets see...  Both Epson and HP were mentioned in this thread.  Epson bowed out because it wasn't large enough.  It took 2 clicks at HP.com to find the large format dye based HP printers.  How hard was that?
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Scho

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Re: Archival or even semi-archival dye printers?
« Reply #13 on: September 04, 2010, 12:02:44 pm »

Mark is correct, [Hi Mark] the widest printer using the dye-based Claria inks is the 1400 which is 13 inches wide.

Dan (Dano) Steinhardt
Epson America, Inc

Do you think Epson will produce a large format (24+) Claria based printer?
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Wayne Fox

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Re: Archival or even semi-archival dye printers?
« Reply #14 on: September 04, 2010, 01:42:56 pm »

Um, OK guys, you win.  I'll bow out now and you folks can argue definitions all you like.

Have a nice day.
Not sure anyone is "arguing" definitions, and indeed the information provided by others should be classed as informative to you if indeed you are trying to understand archival printing and the terms associated.   This seems pretty a pretty snippy response for a new visitor asking for some direction, especially considering answers are readily accessible and can be found with a few google searches.

Sorry you seem bothered by this. I won't bother you in your threads in the future.
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Ernst Dinkla

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Re: Archival or even semi-archival dye printers?
« Reply #15 on: September 04, 2010, 03:41:00 pm »


In Aardenburg testing, the Claria dye set when combined with appropriate media, is very comparable in early stage light fading rates to the very best traditional chromogenic color processes (aka, "regular lab prints" made on modern color photographic papers like Fuji Crystal Archive II"). However, Claria exhibits a non linear fading behavior which turns out to be a good thing for the typical photo consumer because the rate of fade slows down after an early initial stage of light exposure whereas traditional color prints continue to fade at about the same rate until they are badly faded. What this means to the consumer is that Claria clearly outperforms "regular lab print" technology when the fade rating is based on more easily noticeable levels of fade. Claria's weak link is the yellow dye, but again, the yellow fade rate slows down after an early initial hit. This non linear fading performance that is shown in the AaI&A test documents confirms what Epson itself published in a technical paper about Claria dye fade behavior. That technical paper used to be available on the web here:

http://global.epson.com/newsroom/tech_news/tnl0611single.pdf

Unfortunately, the page has been removed, and I was unable to find this pdf document elsewhere on the Epson website.  

kind regards,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com

Mark,

Is this non-linear fading typical for Claria or show more inkjet inks the same non-linearity?


met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla

Try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/
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Ernst Dinkla

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Re: Archival or even semi-archival dye printers?
« Reply #16 on: September 04, 2010, 03:58:54 pm »

Lets see...  Both Epson and HP were mentioned in this thread.  Epson bowed out because it wasn't large enough.  It took 2 clicks at HP.com to find the large format dye based HP printers.  How hard was that?

The Designjet 130 +  50, 30, range use Vivera dye inks. Some are already phased out by HP. The Designjet 130 is very cheap right now so may be on the same route. Secondhand prices for some of that range, the Postscript versions, are quite high I have seen.

What hasn't been discussed is that all the dye printers, but some Canon + HP models, are in the 4 or 6 ink channel class. The gamut of dye inks is quite good but color constancy with different illumination (not correctly called metamerism in shop talk) can be worse than that of pigment inks in N-color printers and the color control of B&W prints is nowhere what printers with grey inks in the inkset can have. There are a few dye printer models with grey inks but I can not recall whether they have the better dye inks discussed here.

met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla

spectral plots of +100 inkjet papers:
http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm




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