Epson 9900 Goya Canvas Ink Rub Off !

[nilo]

Hi,

I tried Hahnemnuhle's Goya Canvas on the 9900, despite my dislike for canvas (only because the customer insisted  . The colors, especially the blacks of the photo still rub off after 48 hours of drying even when touching gently!

Have you experienced anything like this?

regards
nino

[Sven W]

And you have checked that you use the correct black ink it's designed for? Pk or Mk?

/Sven

[nilo]

And you have checked that you use the correct black ink it's designed for? Pk or Mk?

/Sven

"that's elementary my dear watson"  

On the contrary, I am always disappointed and unhappy with any canvas I use, whatever the price tag. So I make tests to try both, PK and MK. With the Goya, I did not have enough time to correct for it, as an initial print with PK turned out horrible. On the other hand I used Epson Satin Canvas with PK, Premium Luster as media setting, very succesfully on the 3880, where it gave much better results than the MK. That was when I had to do a few small "cheap" canvas prints, that had to show a lot of texture and shine, at the expense of the picture, in order to emphasis the canvas media (and I feel the need o tell you this excuse for me printing on canvas, because that's how bad I feel about canvas  ).

regards
nino

[Sven W]

"that's elementary my dear watson"  

I asked because I find to many Watson´s printing with Mk on a glossy surface, resulting in ink rubbing off. 
Maybe it's your dislike for canvas that causes the rubb-off. You have to love your partner !

/Sven

[nilo]

I asked because I find to many Watson´s printing with Mk on a glossy surface, resulting in ink rubbing off. 
Maybe it's your dislike for canvas that causes the rubb-off. You have to love your partner !

/Sven

  Ok, "dislike" is maybe a very polite expression of my feelings for what the canvas craze does to photographic prints. But seriously, I have whitenesses that count for the best of best in fine art printing matters (at least in this remote little sand dune country which I live in). I just had to simply lift the canvas to get it out of my sight ( ) and my hands were stained. I think I will continue to (successfully) put HM PR Baryta with coating on stretcher bars, for those insisting on the wood frame and gallery wrap, because that's what they really want, when they say "canvas", for most of them. I tried to start a thread on that http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=45841.0

[Geoff Wittig]

Ok, "dislike" is maybe a very polite expression of my feelings for what the canvas craze does to photographic prints.

Well, there ya go. Photographic prints and canvas prints really are two distinct art forms, IMHO. Photographic prints exploit the amazing resolution, gamut, dynamic range and high degree of control contemporary digital tools provide us. It's like Group f:64 on steroids. I love huge panoramic prints I can walk right into, and count every leaf on the trees.

Canvas prints aren't aiming for the same target. They're more impressionistic, using the canvas to impose a bit of organic texture on the image. Extreme resolution, super deep d-max and crazy color gamut are no longer the point. I find myself using Corel Painter to play with photographs amenable to some 'interpretation', then painting on the canvas after the fact with acrylic pain. (Which gets around the sad fact that my native drawing and painting skills, well, suck. ) Great fun, and some folks really like the results. But they're not really photographs anymore; and that's okay.

[John Nollendorfs]

Nino:
I agree canvas prints at the small size the 3880 makes are less than over whelming. However, getting into sizes 16x20 and larger, they can look quite good, especially when viewed from the proper distance. 

Most canvas printers use a water resistant matte canvas, which is then sprayed or rolled with a water-based vinyl acrylic top coat to give it protection and gloss. These top coats are available with matte or glossy finish. You can mix them to get the degree of gloss you desire.

Try spraying your canvas prints with something like Krylon Kamar, or Krylon UV resistant clear (available as matte or glossy). This will help keep the ink from rubbing off.

John Nollendorfs

[nilo]

Nino:
I agree canvas prints at the small size the 3880 makes are less than over whelming. However, getting into sizes 16x20 and larger, they can look quite good,

John,

My standard size, and the Goya canvas print discussed in the OP, is 26"x39". BTW it is easily possible to do 16x20 canvas on the 3880. As mentioned (in this post http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=45841.0 ), if the canvas ends up framed, nobody will see the stretcher bars anyway, so just but it on a board and frame it. That way you don't loose canvas real estate: 17"x up what your RIP allows.

especially when viewed from the proper distance. 

You are right that distance helps a bit. But if you put, what I am doing just now, side by side a canvas with a regular print, there is no contest, which is the better quality picture. I can't find any quality that would be better in the canvas print. In this instance these are two 26"x39" prints, one on HM Goya Canvas and the other one on HM PR Baryta. Both are with gallery wrap around a wooden frame.

Most canvas printers use a water resistant matte canvas, which is then sprayed or rolled with a water-based vinyl acrylic top coat to give it protection and gloss.

But will the result compare to a normal print? What's the advantage of doing so? Why should one print on canvas? (now I finally spelled it out! I feel like being the devils advocate  )

These top coats are available with matte or glossy finish. You can mix them to get the degree of gloss you desire.

Try spraying your canvas prints with something like Krylon Kamar, or Krylon UV resistant clear (available as matte or glossy). This will help keep the ink from rubbing off.

Thank  you for that advice John. My wife is a painter and we use a few varnishes and coatings in common. I just didn't know if I wanted to spend more on this canvas, and if anyone had experience with Goya canvas on a 9900 behaving like that. After your comforting words, John, I might try and spend some HM spray in this case.

regards

nino

[nilo]

Well, there ya go. Photographic prints and canvas prints really are two distinct art forms, IMHO. Photographic prints exploit the amazing resolution, gamut, dynamic range and high degree of control contemporary digital tools provide us. It's like Group f:64 on steroids. I love huge panoramic prints I can walk right into, and count every leaf on the trees.

Exactly! Though there would be other means to emphasis the media than to just print on canvas, as it is shown to us by a lot of modern and contemporary photographs, movies and paintings.

Canvas prints aren't aiming for the same target. They're more impressionistic, using the canvas to impose a bit of organic texture on the image.

Honestly, I can't see what should be impressionistic about that...

Extreme resolution, super deep d-max and crazy color gamut are no longer the point.

so what is the point, for those who don't come to your understandable conclusion (which is also mine) that you have to do some over painting, repainting... (I always thought that's because of my past studies in art and my wife being a painter)?

I find myself using Corel Painter to play with photographs amenable to some 'interpretation', then painting on the canvas after the fact with acrylic pain. (Which gets around the sad fact that my native drawing and painting skills, well, suck. ) Great fun, and some folks really like the results. But they're not really photographs anymore; and that's okay.

I think you would enjoy the questions asked by the work of Gerhardt Richter and Thomas Struth.

kind regards

nino

[John Nollendorfs]

Nino:
Yep, I agree, prints on photographic papers seem to have more apparent detail, but if you use a good canvas, and spray it with the gloss protective spray, the detail will still be there. Yes, it's something different, not a photographic print, and not a painting.

I was not a great fan of prints on canvas either, especially in the "old days" when the lab would strip the top layer of a "C" print and press it into canvas, and then lacquer the hell out of it. But I think ink jet on canvas is different, and the new materials are considerably better. STILL it's not a slam dunk! (doing prints on canvas)

Actually, any pigmented ink on micro porous paper is asking for trouble, if it isn't sealed, or framed under glass. The micro porous surface will allow all kinds of airborne contaminates in. That was the beauty of photographic prints--the gelatin surface sealed the dyes from airborne contaminates. Maybe that is one reason canvas prints have become such a "rage". You can seal the surface. You don't have glass in the way. Gallery wrapped prints on stretcher look "arty", and you don't have a high priced frame on top of it!

John Nollendorfs

[nilo]

John,

[...]
Actually, any pigmented ink on micro porous paper is asking for trouble, if it isn't sealed, or framed under glass. The micro porous surface will allow all kinds of airborne contaminates in. That was the beauty of photographic prints--the gelatin surface sealed the dyes from airborne contaminates. Maybe that is one reason canvas prints have become such a "rage". You can seal the surface. You don't have glass in the way. Gallery wrapped prints on stretcher look "arty", and you don't have a high priced frame on top of it![...]

Yes, but you can do the same gallery wrap with, say HM PR Baryta, even according to the manufacturer! Agreed, you'd just have to seal it.

nino

[dgberg]

My business model is almost entirely canvas.
Why? They sell!

[nilo]

My business model is almost entirely canvas.
Why? They sell!

that's the good and the bad part of it  Just why do they sell so well?

[nilo]

My business model is almost entirely canvas.
Why? They sell!

Dan,

If put next to each other, the same image with same size and price, one canvas, one a paper of your choice, maybe even both with a gallery wrap, your customer, without being guided by you, would take the canvas? Ok, mine too, but when I talk to them I can change their mind, by the same token have an different product than my concurrents that also looks a lot better. I have customer that are now spreading my word all over the place, because they want to convince their friends of their good choice, and they tell everybody who told them, and as a proof they show their image, which simply pops 

[Geoff Wittig]

Nino-
You had me going 'till you said Gerhard Richter and Thomas Struth. I don't find them asking interesting questions so much as having a good laugh at the rubes' expense. Post-modern art leaves me completely cold; the witty concept is all that matters. Even in the hands of gifted painters like John Currin, the work still comes out like a snide joke.

But that's just me. Different strokes 'n all.

[nilo]

Nino-
You had me going 'till you said Gerhard Richter and Thomas Struth.

Well I tried, sorry. Guess I just outed myself as an alienated member of the world wide art super power structure  

Post-modern art leaves me completely cold

But you are not alone with that feeling. That should keep you warm.

regards
nino