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Author Topic: Cotton Rag on Stretcher Bars!  (Read 5480 times)

nilo

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Cotton Rag on Stretcher Bars!
« on: August 26, 2010, 01:39:12 am »

Why not use cotton rag instead of canvas on stretcher bars? Maybe the answer is simple?

I successfully mounted HM PR Baryta and CIFA Platine on stretchers. PR Baryta is softer, but both could delicately be stretched even with the use of my canvas pliers and already coated paper. Looks great! No loss of dMax or what so ever! I want test costumer reaction as a next step.

What other ways of presenting prints without glass do you know.

Floating, looks a bit cheap IMHO and to that of my costumers. Put the same board in a frame, maybe even floating in a frame, and looks a lot more substential.


kind regards

nino

EDIT: I forgot to mention that I did a classic gallery wrap.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2010, 02:00:23 am by Nino Loss »
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dgberg

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Re: Cotton Rag on Stretcher Bars!
« Reply #1 on: August 26, 2010, 06:16:28 am »

How did the ink hold up at the folded corners? Did you do the hard pinch fold test to see if the ink cracks through the paper?
Does already coated paper mean you have added a varnish of some sort? Lastly did you try any abuse to see how durable this is at the front and back edges? Since your doing the testing I thought I would ask the questions. :)

nilo

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Re: Cotton Rag on Stretcher Bars!
« Reply #2 on: August 26, 2010, 08:35:58 am »

How did the ink hold up at the folded corners? Did you do the hard pinch fold test to see if the ink cracks through the paper?
Does already coated paper mean you have added a varnish of some sort? Lastly did you try any abuse to see how durable this is at the front and back edges? Since your doing the testing I thought I would ask the questions. :)

I am so happy to see that am not alone in this quest  ;), because I want my prints to have a significant visual advantage over the standard product.

Here are my test results.

 - There are only two papers in the line up, as I do not know of any other suitable contender. HM PR Baryta and CI FA Platine are both cotton rag, acid free, buffered, high dMax, free of OBA/FBAs...

 - Initial "tests" with customers are very good, cause the gamut is a lot better than any canvas. Also its called "cotton rag" and standard canvas is also cotton, though better canvas for oil is linen. Cotton rag is soft, especially HM PR Baryta. I had them touch it, and the matter was understood.

HM PR Baryta 315g is (unfortunately, because of its price tag) the only perfect paper, also in this matter (my recent varnishing attempts, also brought PR Baryta as clear winner).

The resistance of both papers while stretching them is remarkable. I did not notice any negative effect. These prints will for sure be flat  :D

My first impression regarding varnished prints is that they seam to increase the resistance of the print. Also I did my testings with prints coated with a few layer of different varnishes.

When folding "gallery wrap" corners, with PR Baryta the ink layer did not crackle to let the paper white show through. Its doable also with CI FA Platine, but it will more easily crackle. The Hahnemuhle paper did even withstand being completely folded over multiple times, at an 180 degree angle. Only when additionally being abused with fingernails and brutaly pinched or similar, did it show a few white spots, while the Canson did show its paper white earlier.

Dan, I understand that you want to sell the gallery wraps to be hung like that. That might be a problem. I don't know yet how such a paper will behave when standing on its corners for a couple of days, on the floor or else, like a regular canvas would. We'll see. My costumers will normally choose a frame for it. So it does just have to reach the framer. From there on the print will be protected by the frame. For my typical client, the paper is, as the regular canvas, just very temporarily exposed to physical shocks at the corners.

kind regards

nino

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RFPhotography

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Re: Cotton Rag on Stretcher Bars!
« Reply #3 on: August 26, 2010, 08:51:45 am »

Hanhemuhle had a video demo when they introduced their Gallery Wrap kits a couple years ago.  They used paper prints in the demo as well. 

Nino, what kind of varnishes are you using?  Roll/paint on?  Spray on?  Gloss?  Matte?  Semi-gloss?  Oil based?  Acrylic (water based)?  You're not finding any problem with the paper buckling or becoming rippled as a result of the varnish application?

Even if the corners did crack a little, I think I'd agree with you Nino that this wouldn't be a place where the unframed gallery wrap would work really well.  I'd be putting these in a frame and any cracks at the corners would be hidden (i.e., not in a float frame, not a fan of those).
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dgberg

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Re: Cotton Rag on Stretcher Bars!
« Reply #4 on: August 26, 2010, 09:54:01 am »

Hanhemuhle had a video demo when they introduced their Gallery Wrap kits a couple years ago.  They used paper prints in the demo as well. 

Nino, what kind of varnishes are you using?  Roll/paint on?  Spray on?  Gloss?  Matte?  Semi-gloss?  Oil based?  Acrylic (water based)?  You're not finding any problem with the paper buckling or becoming rippled as a result of the varnish application?

Even if the corners did crack a little, I think I'd agree with you Nino that this wouldn't be a place where the unframed gallery wrap would work really well.  I'd be putting these in a frame and any cracks at the corners would be hidden (i.e., not in a float frame, not a fan of those).

Nino,
I guess I should have been more clear. I was expressing an interest in your out come for curiousity sake. Not quite sure it would hold up as a finished product I would want to warranty. But you never know.

dgberg

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Re: Cotton Rag on Stretcher Bars!
« Reply #5 on: August 26, 2010, 10:01:02 am »

Hanhemuhle had a video demo when they introduced their Gallery Wrap kits a couple years ago.  They used paper prints in the demo as well.  

Nino, what kind of varnishes are you using?  Roll/paint on?  Spray on?  Gloss?  Matte?  Semi-gloss?  Oil based?  Acrylic (water based)?  You're not finding any problem with the paper buckling or becoming rippled as a result of the varnish application?

Even if the corners did crack a little, I think I'd agree with you Nino that this wouldn't be a place where the unframed gallery wrap would work really well.  I'd be putting these in a frame and any cracks at the corners would be hidden (i.e., not in a float frame, not a fan of those).
Bob,
I guess if you put them in a frame their would be no need to wrap them in the first place?
I have been spraying some of the new Hot Press Bright with Clearjet. Gluing the print to gatorfoam with Miracle Muck and putting the print and backer in an American Frame with no glass. Very quick,simple durable and inexpensive.
Want a little more durability skip the varnish and add a piece of the acrylic from American.
But then you have what everyone else has.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2010, 10:13:54 am by Dan Berg »
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RFPhotography

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Re: Cotton Rag on Stretcher Bars!
« Reply #6 on: August 26, 2010, 10:08:02 am »

Yeah, true enough, Dan.   ;D
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nilo

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Re: Cotton Rag on Stretcher Bars!
« Reply #7 on: August 26, 2010, 03:12:54 pm »

I have been spraying [...] with Clearjet.

Dan, thank you so much for reminding me about ClearJet! I immediately tried to find a distributor and... there is one 8). So now I am set for a new series of tests. I would like to use the liquid version, as I do more large prints it is easier for me.

Do you have any experience with Clearjet and CIFA Platine Hm PR Baryta? Anyone?

I also very much agree that there is  no need for the stretcher bars, when  the image will be framed in the end, except when that is what your clients want to pay for. And still my particular customers  like frames and believe that a canvas print is something special. "It's like having an oil painting" is the phrase I keep hearing. I sell real oil paintings on linen canvas and wooden stretchers, but that's too expensive for the same client, most of the time. Also they seam to like the fact that it's just like a painting, but not actually one.

As I said, I had good initial reactions when substituting "cotton canvas" with "cotton rag" on stretchers. From there its just a little jump to leave the wood out, because you will not see it ones its framed. And, btw, the backing board is museum grade, while the wood is not. If the whole thing is in a metallic frame or in any other inert material, like some of the new plastic imitations of wood frames, that would than be "archival", for what ever that means and for what ever that is worth.

kind regards

nino
« Last Edit: August 27, 2010, 07:55:08 am by Nino Loss »
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nilo

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Re: Cotton Rag on Stretcher Bars!
« Reply #8 on: August 27, 2010, 06:23:27 am »

I am so happy to see that am not alone in this quest  ;), because I want my prints to have a significant visual advantage over the standard product.

Here are my test results.

 - There are only two papers in the line up, as I do not know of any other suitable contender. HM PR Baryta and CI FA Platine are both cotton rag, acid free, buffered, high dMax, free of OBA/FBAs...

 - Initial "tests" with customers are very good, cause the gamut is a lot better than any canvas. Also its called "cotton rag" and standard canvas is also cotton, though better canvas for oil is linen. Cotton rag is soft, especially HM PR Baryta. I had them touch it, and the matter was understood.

HM PR Baryta 315g is (unfortunately, because of its price tag) the only perfect paper, also in this matter (my recent varnishing attempts, also brought PR Baryta as clear winner).

The resistance of both papers while stretching them is remarkable. I did not notice any negative effect. These prints will for sure be flat  :D

My first impression regarding varnished prints is that they seam to increase the resistance of the print. Also I did my testings with prints coated with a few layer of different varnishes.

When folding "gallery wrap" corners, with PR Baryta the ink layer did not crackle to let the paper white show through. Its doable also with CI FA Platine, but it will more easily crackle. The Hahnemuhle paper did even withstand being completely folded over multiple times, at an 180 degree angle. Only when additionally being abused with fingernails and brutaly pinched or similar, did it show a few white spots, while the Canson did show its paper white earlier.

Dan, I understand that you want to sell the gallery wraps to be hung like that. That might be a problem. I don't know yet how such a paper will behave when standing on its corners for a couple of days, on the floor or else, like a regular canvas would. We'll see. My costumers will normally choose a frame for it. So it does just have to reach the framer. From there on the print will be protected by the frame. For my typical client, the paper is, as the regular canvas, just very temporarily exposed to physical shocks at the corners.

kind regards

nino



BTW a possible little white spots showing where the paper was folded over completely, are certainly not worse than, say HM Goya Canvas (which, in addition, on a recent 9900 printout didn't not hold the black, even after two full days off drying!).
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nilo

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Re: Cotton Rag on Stretcher Bars!
« Reply #9 on: August 28, 2010, 06:17:12 pm »

[...]
I have been spraying some of the new Hot Press Bright with Clearjet. Gluing the print to gatorfoam with Miracle Muck and putting the print and backer in an American Frame with no glass. Very quick,simple durable and inexpensive.[...]

Your inexpensive and efficient method of gluing with miracle muck appealed so much to me, that I tried it out immediately. A disaster! The print buckled, bubbled and worse. I must have done something completely wrong? Are yous using a press of some kind?

I simply put a even coating of the glue on top the board and than unrolled the print onto it. Than I tried to get rid of the bubbles that started to form, but without success, though that's basically what a bookbinder would have done.

EDIT: it was HM PR Baryta
« Last Edit: August 28, 2010, 06:32:11 pm by Nino Loss »
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dgberg

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Re: Cotton Rag on Stretcher Bars!
« Reply #10 on: August 28, 2010, 06:55:44 pm »

Sorry you had problems. Its a first for me hearing this. You only need a very thin coat of the MM. Roll it until it is tacky. I have samples here of Epson hot press bright,lexjet metallic and Epson premium Luster glued to gatorfoam. I am using Gatorfoam (Natural) with the rolled coat of MM. Let me know how it goes. Have never used that paper but cannot imagine that's the problem.
This also makes for a throw away piece if not done properly. (Disclaimer)  You may want to try a small 1 sq. ft. piece of unprinted paper and backer.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2010, 07:17:34 pm by Dan Berg »
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dgberg

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Re: Cotton Rag on Stretcher Bars!
« Reply #11 on: August 29, 2010, 12:58:46 pm »

Nino,
Just came back from the workshop where I ran a couple of quick wet mounts this morning. They came out perfect. Not even a hint of any type of bubble. Both small 8 1/2 x 11" with Miracle Muck on Gatorboard.
Did you get some real Miracle Muck or were you using some other product?

nilo

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Re: Cotton Rag on Stretcher Bars!
« Reply #12 on: August 30, 2010, 08:09:36 am »

Thank you Dan!

You got me on that, Dan! You are right, I did not use Miracle Muck, but, what is called "Big" here, which is a carpenter's/bookbinder's glue I use when I make custom boxes for my client's prints. To cover and line boxes with nice paper, silk or leather I use this glue, which I think is very close to MM (I use those boxes for prints up to 17X25). But since I was in a hurry, I made a different mistake. I noticed it when I read your post
Quote
You only need a very thin coat of the MM. Roll it until it is tacky.
That is where I messed up! I forgot to use the roller, and just took a piece of cardboard as a spatula, as I do for other applications. Evidently the coating was to thick and uneven! Still, with a 8 1/2 x 11 print and 315g paper, there would have been no problem, I guess. But I was clever enough to try it out on an unsellable piece of 27"x40" (This size, along with 17x25 is my most sold standard size for framed prints, that's why).

Regarding ClearJet, I was wondering if you use a regular can to spray, and what are your reasons to prefer this product over any other.

Regards
nino
« Last Edit: August 30, 2010, 10:39:13 am by Nino Loss »
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nilo

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Re: Cotton Rag on Stretcher Bars!
« Reply #13 on: August 30, 2010, 08:16:23 am »

Dan,

I read that Clear jet is very smelly. Is that true?


Also, I was thinking of trying the liquid. That would maybe be a bit easier to apply on larger prints?

nino
« Last Edit: August 30, 2010, 08:38:45 am by Nino Loss »
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dgberg

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Re: Cotton Rag on Stretcher Bars!
« Reply #14 on: August 30, 2010, 02:48:36 pm »

I spray and roll Glamor II both water based. It is the best for gallery wraps. The spraying of glamor is a little more sterile as you never touch the canvas with anything,so less dust or dirt in the finished product.
The Clearjet is solvent based and yes it smells. You need proper venting. I have a spray booth. I use the solvent based on several items only. Canvas that is mounted to gatorboard. The clearjet does not have the elasticity of Glamor. If you bend the corners sharply with clearjet you will crack through the ink.
The solvent is also used on fine art papers as it is quick dry and again less or no dirt on the print. It is a much thinner product and you can control the amount on the print a little easier with Clearjet.

nilo

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Re: Cotton Rag on Stretcher Bars!
« Reply #15 on: August 30, 2010, 02:52:39 pm »

[...] If you bend the corners sharply with clearjet you will crack through the ink. [...]

one could also spray it onces it's already stretched on the canvas!
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Randy Carone

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Re: Cotton Rag on Stretcher Bars!
« Reply #16 on: August 30, 2010, 03:22:51 pm »

ClearStar makes versions of ClearShield (water-based) and ClearJet (solvent-based) specifically engineered for canvas. It will allow for stretching after the clear coat is dry.

Dan can answer this better than I can, but I think if you spray after stretching, you run the risk of the canvas sagging with no opportunity to tighten it up. I'd spray, dry then stretch. Dan - please offer your expertise! lol
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Randy Carone

nilo

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Re: Cotton Rag on Stretcher Bars!
« Reply #17 on: August 30, 2010, 03:26:51 pm »

ClearStar makes versions of ClearShield (water-based) and ClearJet (solvent-based) specifically engineered for canvas. It will allow for stretching after the clear coat is dry.

Dan can answer this better than I can, but I think if you spray after stretching, you run the risk of the canvas sagging with no opportunity to tighten it up. I'd spray, dry then stretch. Dan - please offer your expertise! lol

That makes sens. I am happy that I never tried that way round.
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dgberg

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Re: Cotton Rag on Stretcher Bars!
« Reply #18 on: August 30, 2010, 04:06:11 pm »

Everything we have sprayed or rolled with either product has been applied after the ink dries.(Usually a day)
But before any type of mounting. The ink will in allmost all cases crack when you try to fold a paper or canvas with no top coat. Even the flat canvas prints that get attached to gatorboard get the varnish first.
Many things can happen to a canvas print without varnish,all bad!

nilo

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Re: Cotton Rag on Stretcher Bars!
« Reply #19 on: August 30, 2010, 07:01:14 pm »

Dan,

[...]
Many things can happen to a canvas print without varnish,all bad!

...yes, and even to those varnished, though different, also all bad!

Thank you Alan for your insights and advice on this.

I'll try to look into ClearJet spray and liquid.

kind regards
nino
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