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Author Topic: Canon G12?  (Read 38213 times)

Philnick

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Re: Canon G12?
« Reply #40 on: October 30, 2010, 01:01:19 am »

. . .
The APS-C sensor is a little less than half the size of FF, the 1/1.7 about an eighth the size of the APS-C (!).
. . .

Actually, an APS-C sensor is nearly 2/3 the size of full frame.

To compute it, just take the reciprocal of the crop factor, which for Canon is 1.6:

1 / 1.6 = 0.625 = 62.5%

(I don't know how to compute the size of the G series sensor since I don't know what those numbers mean, so I can't comment on how it compares to APS-C.)
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Canon Bob

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Re: Canon G12?
« Reply #41 on: October 30, 2010, 12:50:26 pm »

Actually, an APS-C sensor is nearly 2/3 the size of full frame.

To compute it, just take the reciprocal of the crop factor, which for Canon is 1.6:

1 / 1.6 = 0.625 = 62.5%

You're simply looking at a linear dimension.  Multiply your 0.625 by itself and you'll find that an APS-C sensor covers only 41.4% of a full frame sensor.

Bob
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Philnick

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Re: Canon G12?
« Reply #42 on: October 30, 2010, 06:55:49 pm »

You're simply looking at a linear dimension.  Multiply your 0.625 by itself and you'll find that an APS-C sensor covers only 41.4% of a full frame sensor.

Bob

True, if you're talking about surface area, but that's not the way most people hear the word "size."

I realized a few years ago that the megapixel race is deceptive for exactly that reason - to double the resolution you have to quadruple the number of pixels, so the much smaller increases in pixel count being boasted about were insignificant: you'd have to take the square root of the ratio to get the actual boost in resolution. Since the first credible APS-C DSLRs were around 5MP, it would take 20MP to double the resolution - and we're not there yet!

Getting back to the original point: I did understand your response, but it took a few moments of reflection. Imagine how someone who's not mathematically inclined would react:

Tell most folks (yes, even me) that a sensor is "only 41.4% the size" and they'll think you're saying it's 0.414 times as wide and 0.414 times as high - in terms of surface area, only 17.1% the size. Size and area are almost, but not exactly, synonymous. Area is a much more advanced concept than length - in fact, it's the beginning of calculus. There's enough ambiguity in the meaning of the word "size" to have allowed the linear meaning  to dominate unless the area meaning is explicitly referenced, so clarity of expression is essential.
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Fritzer

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Re: Canon G12?
« Reply #43 on: October 31, 2010, 02:09:18 am »

True, if you're talking about surface area, but that's not the way most people hear the word "size."

Look, digital sensors didn't change the basic measuring of things.
Size of a sensor means length x height , surface area in other words.
No ambiguity possible, as a sensor has a 2D surface , and there is one way to measure it .

I can't believe I'm typing this ... ;)

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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Canon G12?
« Reply #44 on: October 31, 2010, 05:30:31 am »

Look, digital sensors didn't change the basic measuring of things.
Size of a sensor means length x height , surface area in other words.
No ambiguity possible, as a sensor has a 2D surface , and there is one way to measure it .

Sorry, size alone doesn't tell the story, one needs to specify the dimensions (hence the confusion).

Size is not necessarily area.
- Are you telling us that e.g. the size of a cube is the area of its six sides? In most contexts it would be more useful to know its length/width/height (from that the surface and volume can be derived).
- What's the size of a cylinder? Usually diameter and length are used to describe it, all other meaningful quantifications can be derived from that.
- What size suit do you wear? Surface area? No!

What's more, sensor arrays are sometimes decribed by a larger diameter than they actually have, e.g. 1/1.8". That practice dates back to the video tube era. Here is a useful summary of that confusing subject.

Cheers,
Bart
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Fritzer

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Re: Canon G12?
« Reply #45 on: November 22, 2010, 10:24:04 am »

So I kept the Samsung TL500 - and darn, I love it - so i stand (partly) corrected . ;)

The Raw files take a lot of work, the jpegs are useless as soon as you start working on them, but the handling is superb .
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uaiomex

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Re: Canon G12?
« Reply #46 on: November 22, 2010, 07:43:28 pm »

I can't believe it either!  ;)
Eduardo

Look, digital sensors didn't change the basic measuring of things.
Size of a sensor means length x height , surface area in other words.
No ambiguity possible, as a sensor has a 2D surface , and there is one way to measure it .

I can't believe I'm typing this ... ;)


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marty m

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Re: Canon G12?
« Reply #47 on: November 26, 2010, 07:57:33 pm »

Can anyone comment on the noise level at ISO 400 or 800 when comparing the G10 (which I own) compared to the new G12?  If I upgrade will I see an improvement in noise levels or detail/resolution?
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Gordon Buck

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Re: Canon G12?
« Reply #48 on: November 26, 2010, 09:59:45 pm »

Can anyone comment on the noise level at ISO 400 or 800 when comparing the G10 (which I own) compared to the new G12?  If I upgrade will I see an improvement in noise levels or detail/resolution?

I don't have a G10 but made a comparison between my G9 and G12, see http://lightdescription.blogspot.com/2010/10/g12-and-g9-in-noise-modes.html

My conclusion is that the G12 is about one stop better than the G9 with respect to noise.
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Gordon
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DaveL

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Re: Canon G12?
« Reply #49 on: November 29, 2010, 08:45:44 am »

I went from a G9 with grip to a G11 to get the articulating screen.
I don't have a '12.
I believe that Michael has posted reviews here at luminous landscape of the '11 advising promoting benefits and comparing it to the '10.
The articulating screen makes more of a difference for me than the extra stop. But that's just me.
Hope this helps,
Dave
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Pete Ferling

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Re: Canon G12?
« Reply #50 on: December 20, 2010, 10:01:44 am »

Anyone get their hands on a G12 yet?  Or should I ask after Christmas? :)

I still have, use and love my G5.  Seven-years and running on it's third battery and it still works, that in itself is a feat.
Even at 5MP and a noisy 400 ISO limit, it's a workhorse of a PS take anywhere camera.  The flipout LCD, OVF, and sharp/fast f2-f3 lens are worth it.

To me, all the arguments over A3 prints from a PS is not a factor, as I have much larger gear to lug around if I want to send something to a 44" printer. A lot has to do with the message in the image itself, despite being noisy and only going to 8x10.  In regards to that, usability ala accessible manual controls is more important to me, as in getting the shot and not fighting the camera.

Would it be safe to say that a G12 is the smallest form factor available today that allows for professional use? I think that's the logic behind Canon's marketing.  Where do you draw the line?  The one obvious caveat is the shutter lag, even in manual, that I have with the G5 and I hope the G12 is much faster.  I also like the onboard HDR mode (bracketing shots) for increased DR.  The shops in my local do have these in yet.
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Philnick

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Re: Canon G12?
« Reply #51 on: December 20, 2010, 12:09:08 pm »

I've had a G12 for a month or so and I love it. My big box is an EOS XTi (400D) with the f/2.8 17-55 lens - but I'm not gonna carry that rig around all the time!

The G12 fits in my front pants pocket clipped to a belt-mounted keyring hanger with a pair of steel split-rings - a small one to go through the right-hand strap slot, a larger one through the small one to step it up to fit over my index finger or clip to the belt hanger.

I had a G9 for several years before dropping it on the sidewalk - the G12 is far superior.

The only thing the G9 had over the G12 was a longer zoom range. Balanced against that is much better low light performance from the G12 - I find it useful up to ISO 3200, though 1600 is better - and the wonderful physical knob for tweaking exposure (Ev +/-) while you look at the effect on the Live View screen, which was great this fall for taking foliage shots. (The virtues of the articulating screen you already know about. It makes taking candids a lot easier - I can shoot from my lap.) The 720 p - stereo - video is much better than it has any right to be. (That the G9 did have, but I hardly used it. The articulating screen also makes a difference there.)

I run it in Av mode, with the new front wheel - similar in feel to the "main dial" on an EOS SLR - used to adjust the f-stop. When you move that dial, you get a popup on the screen showing the available f-stop range at your present focal length and where you are in that range. Very nice. Use that to make sure you're always stopped down at least a stop and your shots will be sharp. (Wide open tends to be soft.)

I'm also just getting the hang of the Tracking AutoFocus - instead of manually moving the focus point, you put the center of the screen over your target and half-press the shutter (which has always been the way to avoid shutter lag) and then you can re-frame. The focus point will try to follow the target around the screen, whether because you've re-framed or because the target has moved!

And use RAW capture with it! Right now the choices for doing that are the included Digital Photo Professional disk or Lightroom 3.3 (downloadable from Adobe's website), both of which have profile-based lens aberration correction for the G12. Either one can act as a RAW translator for Photoshop. DPP sends to PS as a TIFF, LR gives you the choice of TIFF or PSD. Both also have the ability to copy tweaks you've worked out on one image to others you select.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2010, 10:46:48 am by Philnick »
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Pete Ferling

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Re: Canon G12?
« Reply #52 on: December 22, 2010, 09:10:47 am »

That's for the detailed reply, Phil.  I played with a G10/11 (no G12 available yet).  Liked the external knobs for manual control. However, the articulating screen is deal maker for me.  I kept the G5 for that, and the f2 lens and a very useful zoom range.  It's enough tool for story telling and snap shots, and the wife appreciates me not having to carry a 40D, or that noisy T70 on family outings.  I've been hinting on getting a G12... see what happens this weekend... :)
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DaveL

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Re: Canon G12?
« Reply #53 on: January 01, 2011, 10:30:43 pm »

Pete did Santa bring a '12?
;)

Best,
DaveL
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DaveL

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Re: Canon G12?
« Reply #54 on: January 01, 2011, 10:34:11 pm »

Philnick, welcome to the forum.

I've taken to using a sling strap to hang my G11 safely. It allows me to keep my camera under my coat when the weather is bad. Open the zipper, and stash the camera away. Worked for me in Quebec City in October where it rained a lot.

I bought the fittings from OpTech and they were really quite inexpensive.

I can see myself dropping m camera too. Not good. :(

Best,
DaveL
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Philnick

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Re: Canon G12?
« Reply #55 on: January 02, 2011, 10:47:50 am »

Dave,

I saw the OpTech fittings after I had rigged up my G12 with the split rings. The small OpTech fitting would do the same job as the smaller split ring, which was a bit of a bear to get threaded through the strap slot.

When I dropped the G9, Canon wanted $350 to fix it, so I didn't. To be fair to Canon, a few years ago they brought it back from the dead for no charge when it stopped working while still under warranty - they replaced just about all of it except for the bottom plate with the serial number.

Update to my last post: Now that Adobe has updated its DNG converter and RAW file filter to version 6.3, the choices for RAW capture with the G12 have increased:

For users of Photoshop 5, RAW filter 6.3 allows direct import  (or through Bridge).

For users of older versions of Photoshop, you can sidestep DPP and Lightroom by using the free DNG converter 6.3.

This transition period has introduced me Lightroom 3.3 - I bought it at version 1 and wasn't impressed, but 3.3 is pretty slick. I particularly like its noise reduction.

A few cautions about Lightroom, however:

(1) If Lightroom's catalog file gets corrupted, it freezes my whole XP machine! I'm going to start having it make daily backups of the catalog file.  - CORRECTION: Corruption of the catalog wasn't the source of the freezes. it turned out that the problem was my old nVidia Desktop Manager, which provides manipulation of multiple monitors and its own GUI for the basic nVidia video driver. nVidia Desktop Manager has been giving Lightroom fits for years. Disabling it stopped the freezes. I don't use multiple monitors, and the Windows controls are sufficient for me, so I'm satisfied - except that my free trial of Lightroom has expired and I'm having trouble coming up the the money to buy it!

(2) To keep the catalog file in synch with the locations of files, the recommendation is to do file management through Lightroom - but be careful about deleting images through Lightroom. I saw that a small folder and its subfolder had the same images, so I deleted the ones in the folder - which took out the ones in the subfolder as well. (Fortunately, I had let them go to the recycle bin.) Apparently, Lightroom shows all images in subfolders in their parent folders.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2011, 08:44:15 pm by Philnick »
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DaveL

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Jan 19 Quick Review at dpreview
« Reply #56 on: January 19, 2011, 04:28:14 pm »

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/CanonG12/page9.asp

Coles notes...ISO 400 and below to keep noise levels down.  Not in the review, but some users report ergonomic issues when they push buttons on the camera back with their right thumb.

I've found a solution that may work for this camera and my G11...
Hardware store--little stick on rubber bumpers that you stick on cupboard doors to quiet them when closing. Perhaps 3/8 inch in diameter. Perhaps 3/32nd inch thick with adhesive back.
The ones I bought are brown, but I'm colourblind. :)

Best,

DaveL

(Just returned from the camera store where I contemplated trading my G11 on:
* P7000
* LX5
* S95

Yes I was serious!)
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Philnick

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Re: Canon G12?
« Reply #57 on: January 19, 2011, 08:57:44 pm »

With my G9, staying at or below ISO 400 was standard operating procedure, but shooting RAW and using Lightroom 3.3, I find that even 3200 looks nice.

This is a second camera, after all - it's for the unexpected shooting opportunity. If you can plan for a shoot, bring your DSLR.
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