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Author Topic: Applications and Color Management  (Read 8524 times)

JeremyLangford

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Applications and Color Management
« on: August 13, 2010, 09:37:13 pm »

I am trying to understand how applications can deal with color management. Is the following close to the truth?

Applications can.....

1) Do nothing that involves color management, resulting in the image data being sent straight to the monitor

2) Recognize that an image does/doesn't have a color profile and convert images that do have profiles to the system profile (Windows - sRGB, Mac - Monitor Profile) before it is sent to the monitor

3) Everything in number 2 except untagged images can be assigned a working space

It seems to me that Safari is an application that falls under the number 2 category while Firefox and Photoshop fall under the 3 category
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WombatHorror

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Re: Applications and Color Management
« Reply #1 on: August 13, 2010, 11:16:27 pm »

The profile you make has two parts, one is the LUT that gets loaded into the graphics card. Every single program managed or not, even the desktop uses this unless they toss it or use a special sort of video layer.

Almost all games toss it (although apparently there is a way to lock it). Blu-ray software appears to either toss it or use some protected video layer or something that won't make use of the LUT. HDTV and DVD stuff some players will and some won't.

The LUT is used to set the tone response curve. The sRGB standard uses sRGB TRC. Many calibration tools and monitors don't support that and only color managed apps will actually deliver you the proper sRGB TRC. AdobeRGB uses Gamma 2.2. Gamma 2.2 is pretty standard way to set the display for movies/games/native editing. Although sRGB photos and web stuff actually matches perfectly to sRGB TRC and not Gamma 2.2.
The LUT also at the same time sets the white point.

Then the second part is the profile of screen. Only fully color-managed apps make use of this. Basically just stuff like FPV, Irfanview for jpgs with a plug-in, Photoshop/After Effects/InDesign, Photomechanic,Windows Photo viewer/gallery for jpgs (and only when not in full screen or slide mode :( for some bizarre reason),some OEM photo and scanner software,Firefox,etc.

Some are simple matrix based and just essentially record the positions and luminances of the primaries and secondaries. The programs can then take the matrix for the assigned profile of the image and multiply it to transform it into the monitor's colorspace. Some are that plus more complicated correction tables instead.

Anything that doesn't toss the LUT or use some weird video render mode will automatically make use of the LUT (so long as you don't forget to tell the OS to load it into the graphics card LUT).
Partially managed programs may only do simple things like transform image space into sRGB and do nothing more, they won't use the monitor's profile (beyond whatever the LUT did).
Fully managed programs take the source profile and monitor profile both into account.


Some browsers don't bother managing images unless tagged (safari) and some such as Firefox can be set to automatically assume sRGB for everything not tagged otherwise and will manage everything on the web from all the tons of untagged sRGB images to the font colors and graphics, etc.
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JeremyLangford

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Re: Applications and Color Management
« Reply #2 on: August 21, 2010, 11:27:01 pm »

So there are obviously many scenarios and possibilities for color management through many differently designed applications. The main reason I asked is because I am planning to buy a new external monitor and I was trying to find out how easily a wide gamut monitor could be used without misinterpreting and over saturating most data due to dumb applications or dumb OS profiles.

It seems to me like a wide gamut monitor would be fine on my mac as long as I only use Photoshop/Firefox for images because these applications can both enable a necessary sRGB working space. I guess there will still be some misinterpreting with dumb applications, movies, games etc. but I don't see that as becoming extremely noticeable.
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WombatHorror

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Re: Applications and Color Management
« Reply #3 on: August 22, 2010, 03:00:53 pm »

So there are obviously many scenarios and possibilities for color management through many differently designed applications. The main reason I asked is because I am planning to buy a new external monitor and I was trying to find out how easily a wide gamut monitor could be used without misinterpreting and over saturating most data due to dumb applications or dumb OS profiles.

It seems to me like a wide gamut monitor would be fine on my mac as long as I only use Photoshop/Firefox for images because these applications can both enable a necessary sRGB working space. I guess there will still be some misinterpreting with dumb applications, movies, games etc. but I don't see that as becoming extremely noticeable.

It's pretty noticeable for games/movies/tv IMO!

SOme wide gamut monitors have at least reasonable wide gamut emulation modes (Dell U2410/U2711) and some have truly superb (NEC PA (perhaps the 90 ^2 series?),any of the newest Eizo) sRGB emulation modes.
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JeremyLangford

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Re: Applications and Color Management
« Reply #4 on: August 25, 2010, 01:09:19 pm »

Are all of the wide gamut monitors that can successfully emulate sRGB fairly expensive? This seems to be the best possible solution for everyone but I really have no idea if its worth double to triple the price of a good IPS standard gamut monitor. I am in college which means I don't have $1000 readily available very often and I still haven't even seen an actual wide gamut monitor's benefits compared to a standard gamut monitor other than on youtube. I am currently only trying to get my film scanned (I have a Coolscan 9000 it that makes a difference) and onto the internet which obviously doesn't require a wide gamut monitor. However, I eventually want to be able to easily print and I'm worried that this is when a wide gamut monitor will truly show it's benefits through prints when paired with a good printer. I am willing to pay for the wide gamut, especially with a fairly good sRGB emulation mode, if it will truly make my pictures better in any way but I have no idea if it will do so or if it will mostly cause me frustration due to unintended over saturation.

Would it make sense for me to purchase a standard gamut monitor for now to help me get my pictures on the internet and hope that by the time I want to start printing, better, newer, cheaper wide gamut monitors with a good sRGB emulation modes will be available? It seems like wide gamut monitors are advancing quickly and buying one now could easily lead to future regret. Not only could there be better monitors by the time I feel like I need to extend my gamut, but I should also learn a lot from using the standard gamut monitor and I should have a better idea of what I want in a monitor after dealing with a standard gamut IPS monitor first.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2010, 01:52:16 pm by JeremyLangford »
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WombatHorror

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Re: Applications and Color Management
« Reply #5 on: August 25, 2010, 03:43:39 pm »

Are all of the wide gamut monitors that can successfully emulate sRGB fairly expensive? This seems to be the best possible solution for everyone but I really have no idea if its worth double to triple the price of a good IPS standard gamut monitor. I am in college which means I don't have $1000 readily available very often and I still haven't even seen an actual wide gamut monitor's benefits compared to a standard gamut monitor other than on youtube. I am currently only trying to get my film scanned (I have a Coolscan 9000 it that makes a difference) and onto the internet which obviously doesn't require a wide gamut monitor. However, I eventually want to be able to easily print and I'm worried that this is when a wide gamut monitor will truly show it's benefits through prints when paired with a good printer. I am willing to pay for the wide gamut, especially with a fairly good sRGB emulation mode, if it will truly make my pictures better in any way but I have no idea if it will do so or if it will mostly cause me frustration due to unintended over saturation.

Would it make sense for me to purchase a standard gamut monitor for now to help me get my pictures on the internet and hope that by the time I want to start printing, better, newer, cheaper wide gamut monitors with a good sRGB emulation modes will be available? It seems like wide gamut monitors are advancing quickly and buying one now could easily lead to future regret. Not only could there be better monitors by the time I feel like I need to extend my gamut, but I should also learn a lot from using the standard gamut monitor and I should have a better idea of what I want in a monitor after dealing with a standard gamut IPS monitor first.

the Dell U2410 emulation for sRGB isn't exactly perfect, but it's not too bad and might well be good enough. Most of the other non-NEC, non-Eizo have had pretty poor sRGB emulation modes so it was refreshing to see Dell finally bother to get it working to some reasonable degree.

it doesn't have the deepest black levels though.
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JeremyLangford

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Re: Applications and Color Management
« Reply #6 on: August 27, 2010, 01:18:01 pm »

the Dell U2410 emulation for sRGB isn't exactly perfect, but it's not too bad and might well be good enough. Most of the other non-NEC, non-Eizo have had pretty poor sRGB emulation modes so it was refreshing to see Dell finally bother to get it working to some reasonable degree.

it doesn't have the deepest black levels though.


So would you agree with my idea to ignore the idea of wide gamut for now and get a good standard gamut IPS monitor? I'm clueless and I feel like I'm going to just have to pick a random monitor and hope there's not a better one at a similar price that I could have gotten instead. Would you recommend the Dell 2209WA as a good standard gamut IPS monitor? It seems to have gotten a lot of followers.
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ChasP505

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Re: Applications and Color Management
« Reply #7 on: August 27, 2010, 01:42:39 pm »

...I'm clueless and I feel like I'm going to just have to pick a random monitor and hope there's not a better one at a similar price that I could have gotten instead. Would you recommend the Dell 2209WA as a good standard gamut IPS monitor? It seems to have gotten a lot of followers.

Jeremy, you're NOT clueless...  I recommended this monitor to you more than a year ago. 

http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=734546

Since then, it's been succeeded by the Dell U2311h, a wider aspect e-IPS monitor with higher resolution (1920x1080 vs. 1680x1050).  It should still serve you well and fit into your college student budget.
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JeremyLangford

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Re: Applications and Color Management
« Reply #8 on: August 27, 2010, 03:21:08 pm »

Jeremy, you're NOT clueless...  I recommended this monitor to you more than a year ago.  

http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=734546

Since then, it's been succeeded by the Dell U2311h, a wider aspect e-IPS monitor with higher resolution (1920x1080 vs. 1680x1050).  It should still serve you well and fit into your college student budget.

You're right, I'm not clueless. But I don't feel like I have enough information to feel comfortable about spending money on a certain monitor. I like that the U2311H is full hd but there's no HDMI input and I've read about some viewing angle and tinting issues with the blacks that aren't present on the 2209WA.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2010, 03:34:39 pm by JeremyLangford »
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ChasP505

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Re: Applications and Color Management
« Reply #9 on: August 27, 2010, 04:49:13 pm »

...I like that the U2311H is full hd but there's no HDMI input and I've read about some viewing angle and tinting issues with the blacks that aren't present on the 2209WA.

Then the obvious answer is try the 2209WA.  Mine is nearly 2 years old and I still love it.
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Chas P.

digitaldog

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Re: Applications and Color Management
« Reply #10 on: August 28, 2010, 01:28:38 pm »


1) Do nothing that involves color management, resulting in the image data being sent straight to the monitor

2) Recognize that an image does/doesn't have a color profile and convert images that do have profiles to the system profile (Windows - sRGB, Mac - Monitor Profile) before it is sent to the monitor

3) Everything in number 2 except untagged images can be assigned a working space

1. Yes. RGB values are sent to display, working/color space and display profile are simply not on the radar.
2. Recognize working space and display profile, use Display Using Monitor Compensation to produce correct preview of numbers.
3. Untagged images have to be assumed to be in some color space, for #2 to work.
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WombatHorror

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Re: Applications and Color Management
« Reply #11 on: August 30, 2010, 09:18:40 pm »

You're right, I'm not clueless. But I don't feel like I have enough information to feel comfortable about spending money on a certain monitor. I like that the U2311H is full hd but there's no HDMI input and I've read about some viewing angle and tinting issues with the blacks that aren't present on the 2209WA.

why do you need HDMI input?

DVI->HDMI HDMI->DVI converters are totally lossless (and cheap since they don't really do a whole lot of anything).
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JeremyLangford

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Re: Applications and Color Management
« Reply #12 on: August 31, 2010, 09:27:51 pm »

why do you need HDMI input?

DVI->HDMI HDMI->DVI converters are totally lossless (and cheap since they don't really do a whole lot of anything).


I didnt realize that
« Last Edit: August 31, 2010, 09:31:50 pm by JeremyLangford »
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JeremyLangford

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Re: Applications and Color Management
« Reply #13 on: September 03, 2010, 02:00:49 pm »

Is it safe to say that the u2311h would definitely come with tinting/lighting issues that the 2209wa wouldn't or that the 2209wa is an overall better proven performer when compared to the u2311h? I really do like the idea of 16:9 1080p because it seems to be the standard when it comes to video. But I also don't want to buy a monitor that has been known to have problems that the 2209wa doesn't have.
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ChasP505

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Re: Applications and Color Management
« Reply #14 on: September 04, 2010, 11:56:04 am »

Is it safe to say that the u2311h would definitely come with tinting/lighting issues that the 2209wa wouldn't or that the 2209wa is an overall better proven performer when compared to the u2311h? I really do like the idea of 16:9 1080p because it seems to be the standard when it comes to video. But I also don't want to buy a monitor that has been known to have problems that the 2209wa doesn't have.

At this price point, it's still somewhat of a lottery as to whether you'll get either model with a good panel, free of tinting and no bad pixels.  I lucked out with my own 2209WA, but I know of people who had to send back 3-4 monitors to Dell before they finally got an acceptable unit.  So, I don't think it matters whether you go with the 2209WA or the U2310h...  They both use e-IPS panels sourced from LG.
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JeremyLangford

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Re: Applications and Color Management
« Reply #15 on: September 13, 2010, 12:49:13 pm »

Thats what I was thinking.
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