Some Thoughts on the H3DII-31 and the Emerging "Entry-Level" MF Market

[MattBeardsley]

Hello LL!

I've been working with a Hasselblad H3DII-31 for a few days and have really enjoyed the experience.  I just wrote a long break down of what seems to be a new segment in digital medium format cameras as well as an introduction to the camera...

Thoughts?

Here's the link:
http://mattbeardsleyblog.com/2010/08/12/entry-level-digital-medium-format-and-the-10k-hasselblad-h3dii-31/

Thanks!
Matt

[David Grover / Capture One]

Thanks for the posting Matt!

[Dick Roadnight]

Hello LL!

I've been working with a Hasselblad H3DII-31 for a few days and have really enjoyed the experience.  I just wrote a long break down of what seems to be a new segment in digital medium format cameras as well as an introduction to the camera...

Thoughts?

My entry point to digital (ignoring my Leica P&S) will (after upgrade) be the H4D-60, which is a nice place to start... and it has been good avoiding spending a great deal of money on "pro" digital **** that is no better than 5*4 film!

A very cost-effective option I would have considered is the CFV39 V-system digiback, which would be compatible with my existing 3 camera, 4 lens Hasselblad system, and my 3 Sinars... and I am keeping my Hassey V system thinking that I will still get a CFV39 at some point.

I think you can use the CFV39 as a DSLR with digital lenses with an H2?
edit... apparently not... that is the 39CF.

...but my main camera, I like to think, is the Sinar P3, which would enable me to use the CFV39 with Apo-Digitars and produce work good enough for most jobs, (with stitching).

[ondebanks]

Very well written and informative writeup, Matt. Thanks for posting.

Thoughts? Well, I am struck by one immediate thing: Phase One's pricing of an equivalent package (identical sensor) is several thousand dollars more!

* H3DII-31, 31MP back based on the KAF-31000 sensor, 80/2.8 lens: $ 11,995 at B&H
* PhaseOne 645AF, 31MP back based on the KAF-31000 sensor, 80/2.8 lens: $ 16,990 at Capture Integration
* PhaseOne 645DF, 31MP back based on the KAF-31000 sensor, 80/2.8 LS lens: $ 18,990 at Capture Integration

The expletive "WTF?" comes to mind...

Also, although you have identified an Emerging "Entry-Level" MF Market with common pricing around $10k for the H3DII-31, Pentax 645D and Mamiya DM22, I think you should stress that the sensors in these three models are widely different in performance. I would even look past the obvious Megapixel count rankings (22-31-40) and instead focus on per-pixel performance under quantum efficiency, readout noise, and long exposure dark noise [I've done this exercise myself]. By these metrics, the Pentax is somewhat ahead of the Hasselblad, which in turn is way ahead of the Mamiya. It happens that this correlates with megapixel count, but that is partially a coincidence - the sensor technology improvements which accompanied the drive to smaller pixels in MF sensors have also improved these other areas - most impressively in the area of dark current, less so in the area of readnoise and qe.

Ray

[Dustbak]

I think you can use the CFV39 as a DSLR with digital lenses with an H2? ...but my main camera, I like to think, is the Sinar P3, which would enable me to use the CFV39 with Apo-Digitars and produce work good enough for most jobs, (with stitching).

No you cannot use a CFV39 with a H body. The CFV39 is dedicated to the V mount. If you would like to use a back on your V-equipment as well as on your H equipment  you should get yourself a CF39.

However the CF39 needs a sync cable from the lens to the back on most V bodies. The CF39 can be used on H1/H2/H2F but will only take HCD lenses on the H2F. On the H1 & H2 you cannot use the HCD28 or the HCD35-90.

BTW....


I have a CF39 for sale

[Dick Roadnight]

Very well written and informative writeup, Matt. Thanks for posting.

Thoughts? Well, I am struck by one immediate thing: Phase One's pricing of an equivalent package (identical sensor) is several thousand dollars more!

* H3DII-31, 31MP back based on the KAF-31000 sensor, 80/2.8 lens: $ 11,995 at B&H
* PhaseOne 645AF, 31MP back based on the KAF-31000 sensor, 80/2.8 lens: $ 16,990 at Capture Integration
* PhaseOne 645DF, 31MP back based on the KAF-31000 sensor, 80/2.8 LS lens: $ 18,990 at Capture Integration

The expletive "WTF?" comes to mind...
Ray

I think Hasselblad do not want to be in this market, they have stopped manufacturing the H3D11-31, and they are selling off their existing stock at a discount.

[Dick Roadnight]

No you cannot use a CFV39 with a H body. The CFV39 is dedicated to the V mount. If you would like to use a back on your V-equipment as well as on your H equipment  you should get yourself a CF39.

However the CF39 needs a sync cable from the lens to the back on most V bodies. The CF39 can be used on H1/H2/H2F but will only take HCD lenses on the H2F. On the H1 & H2 you cannot use the HCD28 or the HCD35-90.

BTW....


I have a CF39 for sale

Thank you for the clarification... I have an ELD, which was supposed to be for digital, so if should be OK ....how much?

[jduncan]

Also, although you have identified an Emerging "Entry-Level" MF Market with common pricing around $10k for the H3DII-31, Pentax 645D and Mamiya DM22, I think you should stress that the sensors in these three models are widely different in performance. I would even look past the obvious Megapixel count rankings (22-31-40) and instead focus on per-pixel performance under quantum efficiency, readout noise, and long exposure dark noise [I've done this exercise myself]. By these metrics, the Pentax is somewhat ahead of the Hasselblad, which in turn is way ahead of the Mamiya. It happens that this correlates with megapixel count, but that is partially a coincidence - the sensor technology improvements which accompanied the drive to smaller pixels in MF sensors have also improved these other areas - most impressively in the area of dark current, less so in the area of readnoise and qe.

Ray

I will add the system to the equation: AF central shutter lens,  t/s options, geo tagging, view finders etc.   

[MattBeardsley]

Ray, thanks for the comments and kind words about my writing.  I agree completely about Phase One.  They've decided to use 2 Mamiya/Leaf cameras as the entry level options for the Phase One/Mamiya/Leaf family of products, the DM22 and DM28.  Also, I agree the Mamiya, Pentax, and Hasselblad are very different instruments from one another.  I can certainly think of advantages and strengths of each system.

I spent time today assembling materials for my next entry on the H3DII-31, a discussion of image quality.  However chunky the body may be, the files are stunning.  I composed and lit photos identically between the H3DII-31 and my Nikon D3 and can say the differences in image quality are striking.  I was suspicious, but can say it is certainly not just marketing hype by the MF manufacturers.  I look forward to sharing what I've found from the comparison.

Thanks again,
Matt

Very well written and informative writeup, Matt. Thanks for posting.

Thoughts? Well, I am struck by one immediate thing: Phase One's pricing of an equivalent package (identical sensor) is several thousand dollars more!

* H3DII-31, 31MP back based on the KAF-31000 sensor, 80/2.8 lens: $ 11,995 at B&H
* PhaseOne 645AF, 31MP back based on the KAF-31000 sensor, 80/2.8 lens: $ 16,990 at Capture Integration
* PhaseOne 645DF, 31MP back based on the KAF-31000 sensor, 80/2.8 LS lens: $ 18,990 at Capture Integration

The expletive "WTF?" comes to mind...

Also, although you have identified an Emerging "Entry-Level" MF Market with common pricing around $10k for the H3DII-31, Pentax 645D and Mamiya DM22, I think you should stress that the sensors in these three models are widely different in performance. I would even look past the obvious Megapixel count rankings (22-31-40) and instead focus on per-pixel performance under quantum efficiency, readout noise, and long exposure dark noise [I've done this exercise myself]. By these metrics, the Pentax is somewhat ahead of the Hasselblad, which in turn is way ahead of the Mamiya. It happens that this correlates with megapixel count, but that is partially a coincidence - the sensor technology improvements which accompanied the drive to smaller pixels in MF sensors have also improved these other areas - most impressively in the area of dark current, less so in the area of readnoise and qe.

Ray

[BrendanStewart]

Matt, great read. I actually found your blog post today by searching 'h3dII-31'.  I too just picked one up, with the HC100 and HC35 lenses.  I find it vastly superior to Canon 5DMKII, minus the review screen on the back.

I have some photos taken here with it: http://www.flickr.com/photos/symbolphotography/  several with studio strobes as well.

[mtomalty]

"I composed and lit photos identically between the H3DII-31 and my Nikon D3 and can say the differences in image quality are striking. "


Surely, this must not have come as a surprise ?  After all, you're comparing a 12MP capture with a 31 MP capture.
I think getting hold of a D3x would make for better comparative results.


Mark
www.marktomalty.com

[MattBeardsley]

Matt, great read. I actually found your blog post today by searching 'h3dII-31'.  I too just picked one up, with the HC100 and HC35 lenses.  I find it vastly superior to Canon 5DMKII, minus the review screen on the back.

I have some photos taken here with it: http://www.flickr.com/photos/symbolphotography/  several with studio strobes as well.

Brendan... awesome!  What do you think of the 35mm?  Also, have you attempted a wedding with the H3DII?

[BrendanStewart]

I love it so far.

The 35 is wide. Not like a 35mm 35. Has different qualities that i can't quite describe. Distortion is handled well in Phocus and the images come out  quite well.

I've done engagement sessions and maternity sessions with it so far, but not a full wedding yet. I can see myself using it for times between ceremonies and receptions, but not all day. It's simply not fast enough to handle shooting the entire day.

Here are two from maternity session. Note: This was done in full daylight at about 1/750th with Elinchrom Ranger.

[MattBeardsley]

Brendan, very cool.  I really like the high sync speed effect.  It seems like, to my eye anyway, the 35mm lens gives the 645 "look" a little contemporary edge.  It looks, perhaps, more useable than the 28mm f4 (which is an awesome lens with very controlled distortion, but I found very wide for portrait work).

[BrendanStewart]

Yeah i haven't used the 28 yet, but i figured the 35 was pushing the limits for what i'd normally encounter in wedding scenarios.  I'm hoping to pick up a 35-90 (if i come into some cash) one of these days and that'll complete my set.

So far though the 100 2.2 as most people confirm is THE portrait lens for this system. It's ridiculously sharp and the colors are amazing. The DOF is really thin and if using it on a face, you best triple check you've got the right focal point.

So for $14.5  i got a H3DII-31, 100 2.2 and 35 3.5.  Not a bad deal... I do have my heart set on upgrading to the H4D at some point though.

Do you shoot weddings? Mac (Photografz) on getdpi.com shoots weddings with one. I have no idea how he does it. He uses it on a monopod to keep the resolution crisp though. I think he has backup gear as well.  I'm just not there with this system yet. 1 frame per 1.2 seconds is mighty slow for weddings. Sometimes (Bouquet toss, tears flowing, kids running) you need faster processing than what it allows.

[Nick-T]

Marc does a great job with his weddings, here's a post on my blog where he talks about his first impressions of the H4D40:

http://www.nick-t.com/blog/2010/04/h4d40-first-impressions/

Cheers
Nick-T

[BrendanStewart]

Marc does a great job with his weddings, here's a post on my blog where he talks about his first impressions of the H4D40:

http://www.nick-t.com/blog/2010/04/h4d40-first-impressions/

Cheers
Nick-T

Don't tempt me any further. I have my own wedding to pay for next year!!!

http://www.symbolphoto.com/blog/2010/02/symbol-photography-engagement/
I wish i had the H3D11-31 for that!

[Abdulrahman Aljabri]

I find it vastly superior to Canon 5DMKII, minus the review screen on the back.

Are you referring to the file quality or the way it operates? Is the view finder much bigger than the one on the 5D?

[BrendanStewart]

Funny, maybe i'm immune to it, but going from the 5DMKII to the H3DII-31 , the viewfinder hasn't been a huge difference.

But David Grover has mentioned that the next offering will have the 920,000 version screen shared by Canon and Nikon. So that's good. I'd be more than willing to pay a couple of hundred to have my H3DII-31 upgraded. Maybe that'll be offered? hehe, one could only wish.

[ihv]

Hi Matt,

a little remark, about the "amplified selective focus effect (bigger sensors make for smaller depth of focus)"

In practice, 35mm does better here with its very fast lenses (MF lenses stop at F2.8 whereas 35mm equivalent FOV offerings are in range F1.2-1.4), what concerns depth of field. I have seen mentioned though that the MF results somewhat more pleasant focus fall-off.

Take care,
Ivar