tripod for MF digital

[Dick Roadnight]

thanks for pointing out that MANY factors apart from tripod size and weight effect camera shake, and also the good suggestions for various options to investigate including sandbag, gearbag, amount of extension, use of center column etc to explore before investing in a new tripod.

¿Have you done tests to establish how much shake you get when?  ...then you can asses how much the techniques help.

[gigdagefg]

When using an HD4 50 megapixel Hasselblad with mirror up and cable release, the camera shake is not discernible at any shutter speed. Of course a sturdy tripod must be used, but this urban legend that persists on this site about Hasselblads being  an inferior MF camaera is totally false! The focus is extraordinary; the lenses are tack sharp; holding this instrument in your hands is pure ecstasy.

Stanley

[Dick Roadnight]

When using an HD4 50 megapixel Hasselblad with mirror up and cable release, the camera shake is not discernible at any shutter speed. Of course a sturdy tripod must be used, but this urban legend that persists on this site about Hasselblads being  an inferior MF camaera is totally false! The focus is extraordinary; the lenses are tack sharp; holding this instrument in your hands is pure ecstasy.

Stanley

The mirror noise is what created the myth,,, and when the mirror drops back down it does shake the camera... but this has no effect on picture sharpness as it occurs after the exposure. If you do not use mirror lock-up you can set a delay to let the vibrations die away after the mirror swings up and before the exposure.

With the mirror locked up the leaf shutter produces no (discernible) camera shake.

[lowep]

....when the mirror drops back down it does shake the camera... but this has no effect on picture sharpness as it occurs after the exposure...

Just like thunder and lightning. Does the mirror mechanism of the Contax 645 and other MF cameras work in the same way?

If this is the case then an MF SLR should be just as easy to handhold at low shutter speeds as say a Mamiya 7, right or wrong?

The tripod I use for everything is an old Manfrotto "Silver Jubilee" Silver190. I am not sure how it fits size/weight-wise into Manfrotto's current lineup.

[tho_mas]

....when the mirror drops back down it does shake the camera... but this has no effect on picture sharpness as it occurs after the exposure...

Does the mirror mechanism of the Contax 645 and other MF cameras work in the same way?

the red part is just half the story. Before the mirror drops back... it swings up. Before exposure. And that of course introduces mirror shake.
But on the H you can set a shutter delay to reduce mirror shake.
The Contax is a focal plane shutter camera. And you can't set a shutter delay. So basically it's more prone to suffer from mirror/shutter shake.
However the Contax' mirror and shutter are not so bad. 1/125'' is doable in any case with very good results. You can get acceptable results down to 1/30'' without mirror lock (you'll see some motion blur but it's not destroying the image.
These are the technical limitations... IMO.
Besides it depends on your skills shooting hand held.
Also a monopod will help a lot, however you won't shoot at 1/15'' even with a monopod as mirror shake is clearly visible. You can, of course, use the 2'' mirror lock even with a monopod... but it highly depends on what you are shooting (2'' is quite long if you are shooting moving subjects...)

[darylgo]

Ask 10 photographers about tripods and you will get 11 different answers, so here's my 2 cents.  After reading diglloyd and a few others I put my own tripods to the test.  Here are the results:  Lightweight carbon fiber has less vibration than heavy aluminum. 
Contrary to popular opinion extended center posts are not unstable.  Good technique is critical to good results.  My heavy Bogen tripod vibrated much more than a Gitzo 2 series carbon fiber, and Gitzo 3 series carbon fiber was no more stable than the 2 series.  The Gitzo 2 is rock solid with the center post extended under ideal conditions, i.e. no wind or an unbalanced setup.  The great thing about this is small tripods can give superb results and be used for hiking/backpacking.  Technique (with Contax 645) is to use a cable release, mirror lock up or 2 sec delay that automatically locks mirror upon release and delays shutter 2 seconds.  2 seconds is plenty of time for 0 vibration on these carbon fiber tripods.  1/15 sec to 1/4 sec are the speeds to be avoided if you can't lock the mirror.  All my tests were specific to Contax 645, Gitzo and Bogen tripods.  Field experience substantiates my ideal condition tests and exposures of minutes result in sharp sharp photographs.  Once you start using solid tripods and solid technique sharpness then becomes a function of aperture, 1or 2 and sometimes 3 of the middle aperatures on a given lens will give optimum performance, avoid wide open and the smallest aperture unless factors dictate otherwise (depth of field, stopping motion etc.). 

[feppe]

Ask 10 photographers about tripods and you will get 11 different answers, so here's my 2 cents.  After reading diglloyd and a few others I put my own tripods to the test.  Here are the results:  Lightweight carbon fiber has less vibration than heavy aluminum. 
Contrary to popular opinion extended center posts are not unstable.  Good technique is critical to good results.  My heavy Bogen tripod vibrated much more than a Gitzo 2 series carbon fiber, and Gitzo 3 series carbon fiber was no more stable than the 2 series.  The Gitzo 2 is rock solid with the center post extended under ideal conditions, i.e. no wind or an unbalanced setup.  The great thing about this is small tripods can give superb results and be used for hiking/backpacking.  Technique (with Contax 645) is to use a cable release, mirror lock up or 2 sec delay that automatically locks mirror upon release and delays shutter 2 seconds.  2 seconds is plenty of time for 0 vibration on these carbon fiber tripods.  1/15 sec to 1/4 sec are the speeds to be avoided if you can't lock the mirror.  All my tests were specific to Contax 645, Gitzo and Bogen tripods.  Field experience substantiates my ideal condition tests and exposures of minutes result in sharp sharp photographs.  Once you start using solid tripods and solid technique sharpness then becomes a function of aperture, 1or 2 and sometimes 3 of the middle aperatures on a given lens will give optimum performance, avoid wide open and the smallest aperture unless factors dictate otherwise (depth of field, stopping motion etc.). 

How do you consistently test for vibration dampening? I recently bought a compact Gitzo traveler CF as my old aluminum Manfrotto has a cracked hinge - it still works, though. I'd like to compare them, especially with my heavier cameras.

[darylgo]

How do you consistently test for vibration dampening? I recently bought a compact Gitzo traveler CF as my old aluminum Manfrotto has a cracked hinge - it still works, though. I'd like to compare them, especially with my heavier cameras.

http://regex.info/blog/2007-09-17/575

See Jeffrey's blog from 2007, he has quite a nice write-up and his test target can be copied and placed on a laptop or monitor, the results are easy to read.  Many tests could be devised using this target, such as mirror vibration, hand held image quality vs. tripod quality, it might be possible to determine optimum aperture on a lens...not sure of this last one.  There's no substitute for testing one's own equipment.   

[feppe]

http://regex.info/blog/2007-09-17/575

See Jeffrey's blog from 2007, he has quite a nice write-up and his test target can be copied and placed on a laptop or monitor, the results are easy to read.  Many tests could be devised using this target, such as mirror vibration, hand held image quality vs. tripod quality, it might be possible to determine optimum aperture on a lens...not sure of this last one.  There's no substitute for testing one's own equipment.   

Thanks, been reading Jeffrey's blog for a while, haven't seen this before. I'll use this some day!

[David Watson]

Hi

I have just completed a 14 day field trip to Iceland using Hasselblad HD3-39's and a variety of Hasselblad lenses.  The tripod I took was a Gitzo 3530s (no centre column), Arca Cube head and when using the 210 or 300 mm lenses the addition of the RRS long lens support system.  All images were taken with mirror locked up and I had no problems with shake or vibration irrespective of the shutter speed.  In windy conditions however there were a few problems but I guess that most support systems would find it difficult to handle force 6 gales 4000 feet up on the top of a mountain  .

The key component for me when using long lenses is the RRS telephoto support brackets - they really do work very well.  Have a look here:-

http://reallyrightstuff.com/rrs/Customkititems.asp?kc=CB%2DYS%2DPkg&eq=CB-YS-Pkg-001

David

[darylgo]

Hi

I have just completed a 14 day field trip to Iceland using Hasselblad HD3-39's and a variety of Hasselblad lenses.  The tripod I took was a Gitzo 3530s (no centre column), Arca Cube head and when using the 210 or 300 mm lenses the addition of the RRS long lens support system.  All images were taken with mirror locked up and I had no problems with shake or vibration irrespective of the shutter speed.  In windy conditions however there were a few problems but I guess that most support systems would find it difficult to handle force 6 gales 4000 feet up on the top of a mountain  .

The key component for me when using long lenses is the RRS telephoto support brackets - they really do work very well.  Have a look here:-

http://reallyrightstuff.com/rrs/Customkititems.asp?kc=CB%2DYS%2DPkg&eq=CB-YS-Pkg-001

David

David, I second your recomendation for the lens support package, in addition if you can get to San Luis Obispo and go to their headquarters and showroom they will individually work with you and suggest the best options for your camera/lens/tripod/tripod head setup.  The owners son worked with me for 3 hours on several configurations .....he learned alot and I learned alot before we settled on the standard setup.  They are very knowledgable about their products and offer a very high level of service. 

[Professional]

I have Gitzo tripods from series 1 up to series 5, that series 5 [GT5540] is my top favorite tripod i use for all my cameras from 35 DSLRs up to MFs, even i will use it for my large format that i ordered but i need to find a proper plate for it.

My next choice if i want something else will be Manfrotto, i have 190XPROB with 804RC2 which i use it sometimes with my MF cameras as they don't have plates yet for my RRS BH-55 head or my Q3T Markins head.

[Jeffreytotaro]

I use Gitzo's biggest (tallest) Series 5 and the Arca Cube.  This system is rock solid for the Alpa system.  I rarely have 2 files out of register.  However when I occasionally shoot with the Mamiya 645 I find in addition to locking the mirror I have to be really gentle with the cable release which on mine can take a bit of force to wake the camera and then get it to shoot.  Mine is the pre-digital that was upgraded to a D body.  In my experience nothing is smoother than a view camera shutter (copal) with a long cable release, and that any SLR (35mm or Medium format) will have camera shake issues even with the mirror locked. 

Obviously a lousy tripod will make it harder, but even with the best gear you can still get shake on these cameras.

Just my experience, and another reason I like technical cameras.

[Dick Roadnight]

In my experience nothing is smoother than a view camera shutter (copal) with a long cable release, and that any SLR (35mm or Medium format) will have camera shake issues even with the mirror locked.

Limp wires should be less prone to cause shake than cables, and the ultimate might be wireless-fired SES (Schneider Electronic Shutters) electronic shutters.

¿anyone get shutter-shake with SES?

[Wayne Fox]

In my experience nothing is smoother than a view camera shutter (copal) with a long cable release, and that any SLR (35mm or Medium format) will have camera shake issues even with the mirror locked. 

I would agree with the first part of that statement, something special about the shutter's in a top end view/technical camera lens.

The second part may not be true anymore ... at least not all of the time.  With current dSLR's like the 5D Mark2, it is possible to take a picture with absolutely zero mechanical or physical activity occurring.  This means there is no moving parts to cause any vibration whatsoever.

In these cameras the first curtain is "electronic".  This means if you set up the camera with a self timer, and use live view so the mirror is up and the sensor is uncovered, and your exposure time is less than the flash sync time (meaning the exposure will complete before the second curtain needs to start traveling), the camera will begin exposure without dropping the mirror back down.  The entire process of the first current is electronically simulated by how the sensor data reads in, so no moving parts, until that 2nd mechanical curtain needs to move. No moving parts ... no vibration.

[feppe]

In these cameras the first curtain is "electronic".  This means if you set up the camera with a self timer, and use live view so the mirror is up and the sensor is uncovered, and your exposure time is less than the flash sync time (meaning the exposure will complete before the second curtain needs to start traveling), the camera will begin exposure without dropping the mirror back down.  The entire process of the first current is electronically simulated by how the sensor data reads in, so no moving parts, until that 2nd mechanical curtain needs to move. No moving parts ... no vibration.

That never occurred to me - thanks Wayne! And timing couldn't be better: I was planning to do quite extensive tripod stability tests this weekend with different shooting methods.

[JeffKohn]

In these cameras the first curtain is "electronic".  This means if you set up the camera with a self timer, and use live view so the mirror is up and the sensor is uncovered, and your exposure time is less than the flash sync time (meaning the exposure will complete before the second curtain needs to start traveling), the camera will begin exposure without dropping the mirror back down.  The entire process of the first current is electronically simulated by how the sensor data reads in, so no moving parts, until that 2nd mechanical curtain needs to move. No moving parts ... no vibration.

That's one thing Canon did right. Unfortunately Nikon users shouldn't get excited when reading this, because that's not how LiveView works on current Nikon DSLR's (although one can hope Nikon changes it in future models). Nikon DSLR's actually drop the mirror and then fire the exposure as normal, which means you not only have the shutter moving but the mirror flopping around. So it's best to use live-view for your critical focusing and then switch over to M-UP mode to take the exposure.

[David Sutton]

For this problem I drilled a hole in the center column of my tripod, attached a climbing carabiner using a butterfly screw and nut, and then will hang a sand bag (or my camera bag) from it.  Really helps holding the tripod steady.

You may find a loop of bungee chord around the hook and your foot works better