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Author Topic: profile for varnished & glazed prints?  (Read 1195 times)

nilo

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profile for varnished & glazed prints?
« on: August 08, 2010, 06:17:24 PM »

When I build a profile for my papers, should I varnish the target as I usually do with all my prints before reading them? I guess so, but for some mysterious reason I did never do that   !!! The varnish reacts with the ink, the paper coating, and maybe even with the paper itself. It mostly improves the blacks as well as the gamut. But it seams to my eyes, that the varnish does also shift the tonality of the print, especially in shadows.
I use Golden MSA varnish (removable, UV protection included) that I apply with a roll. Maybe there is also a tiny hue shift caused by the tint of the varnish in lighter parts. The same could be said of the glass that'll come to cover the print.

So, it didn't occur to me until now, but for best results shouldn't I create a profile from that final result, the varnished and glazed print?
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Wayne Fox

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profile for varnished & glazed prints?
« Reply #1 on: August 08, 2010, 08:52:07 PM »

Quote from: ninoloss
When I build a profile for my papers, should I varnish the target as I usually do with all my prints before reading them? I guess so, but for some mysterious reason I did never do that   !!! The varnish reacts with the ink, the paper coating, and maybe even with the paper itself. It mostly improves the blacks as well as the gamut. But it seams to my eyes, that the varnish does also shift the tonality of the print, especially in shadows.
I use Golden MSA varnish (removable, UV protection included) that I apply with a roll. Maybe there is also a tiny hue shift caused by the tint of the varnish in lighter parts. The same could be said of the glass that'll come to cover the print.

So, it didn't occur to me until now, but for best results shouldn't I create a profile from that final result, the varnished and glazed print?
If you always varnish a print the same way, then doing so to the targets before reading is logical.  You could always create a profile first, then varnish, and create another one just to see if the shift is indeed significant.  Sometimes a visual shift is something related to how we see things, and not actually measurable.  Typically a varnish modifies contrast more than anything ... sometimes not changing the readings much at all.  The other concern is the consistency of the varnish and how it's coated.

Personally my breathing color canvas profiles I created after coating, since the contrast shift is significant (matt ink that appears very non matt after coating.).

nilo

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profile for varnished & glazed prints?
« Reply #2 on: August 09, 2010, 01:55:15 AM »

Quote from: Wayne Fox
If you always varnish a print the same way, then doing so to the targets before reading is logical.  You could always create a profile first, then varnish, and create another one just to see if the shift is indeed significant.  Sometimes a visual shift is something related to how we see things, and not actually measurable.  Typically a varnish modifies contrast more than anything ... sometimes not changing the readings much at all.  The other concern is the consistency of the varnish and how it's coated.

Personally my breathing color canvas profiles I created after coating, since the contrast shift is significant (matt ink that appears very non matt after coating.).

Thank you Wayne! From now on, I guess, I'll do my profiles varnished and unvarnished, because even this excellent varnish I use, Golden's MSA, still causes a tiny little shift in the colors and tonality.

But what about the glass over the print? That for sure causes a change in contrast, and therefore in the tonalities. As I side, it mainly affects the dark parts. And there is the hue shift as well, which is more visible in the lighter parts of the print? Shouldn't we create also a profile for that?
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Ernst Dinkla

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profile for varnished & glazed prints?
« Reply #3 on: August 09, 2010, 03:19:16 AM »

Quote from: ninoloss
Thank you Wayne! From now on, I guess, I'll do my profiles varnished and unvarnished, because even this excellent varnish I use, Golden's MSA, still causes a tiny little shift in the colors and tonality.

But what about the glass over the print? That for sure causes a change in contrast, and therefore in the tonalities. As I side, it mainly affects the dark parts. And there is the hue shift as well, which is more visible in the lighter parts of the print? Shouldn't we create also a profile for that?

I always use a profile made of a varnished target for canvas printing. A satin version and a gloss version.

Glass over a print, the two separated 1 to 5mm behaves very different. Other obstacles are many varieties of glass + framing often not done in house. Contrast increases too but the total gets darker as well. As it is more or less impossible to create a target representing that/those condition(s) + reading it with a spectrometer, one improvises by printing a lighter version than one would for unframed prints. For Diasec it would be possible to create a custom profile if the acrylic at the front is made thinner in the target than it is in the end product. Say 1 mm thick. A gloss laminated target could be a substitute too.


met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla

Dinkla Gallery Canvas Wrap Actions for Photoshop
http://www.pigment-print.com/dinklacanvaswraps/index.html



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nilo

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profile for varnished & glazed prints?
« Reply #4 on: August 09, 2010, 07:37:36 AM »

Quote from: Ernst Dinkla
I always use a profile made of a varnished target for canvas printing. A satin version and a gloss version.

Glass over a print, the two separated 1 to 5mm behaves very different. Other obstacles are many varieties of glass + framing often not done in house. Contrast increases too but the total gets darker as well. As it is more or less impossible to create a target representing that/those condition(s) + reading it with a spectrometer, one improvises by printing a lighter version than one would for unframed prints. For Diasec it would be possible to create a custom profile if the acrylic at the front is made thinner in the target than it is in the end product. Say 1 mm thick. A gloss laminated target could be a substitute too.


met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla

Dinkla Gallery Canvas Wrap Actions for Photoshop
http://www.pigment-print.com/dinklacanvaswraps/index.html

So you do compensate for the glass, by printing lighter. I do all the framing in house. I could therefore profile print+varnish+glazing, if I had a device capable of doing that job through the glass and a few millimeters of additional distance to the print?!
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Ernst Dinkla

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profile for varnished & glazed prints?
« Reply #5 on: August 09, 2010, 10:28:27 AM »

Quote from: ninoloss
So you do compensate for the glass, by printing lighter. I do all the framing in house. I could therefore profile print+varnish+glazing, if I had a device capable of doing that job through the glass and a few millimeters of additional distance to the print?!

If an instrument like that existed, the usual spectrometers tend to see less reflected light when hovering above a target.

BTW, why would you varnish a print that will be behind glass? A matte print behind glass gives less internal reflections and is protected already by the glass.

Matte prints without glass is what I prefer and then a varnish is sensible though I like to keep the print matt. There's no need for a custom profile in that case either.


met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla

Try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/


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nilo

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profile for varnished & glazed prints?
« Reply #6 on: August 09, 2010, 11:09:28 AM »

Quote from: Ernst Dinkla
If an instrument like that existed, the usual spectrometers tend to see less reflected light when hovering above a target.

BTW, why would you varnish a print that will be behind glass? A matte print behind glass gives less internal reflections and is protected already by the glass.

I know, that's a problem, but there are two reasons to it. First of all, I cannot find Glare-free UV coated glass here in my remote place, so coating the print with UV protection is the only way I found to deal with this. The other reason is that some of my costumers don't leave the prints under the glass all the time (evidently there is no way to profile for both of this situations at once, but I decided, not sure why, to make them look at their optimum when framed under glass).

Quote
Matte prints without glass is what I prefer and then a varnish is sensible though I like to keep the print matt. There's no need for a custom profile in that case either.

met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla

Try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/

But how to make a print without glass and no varnish that is still cleanable - archival? With the varnish at least only the over-mat (if there is one) gets spoiled over time from the pollutants in the air (maybe, as we said recently, one should simply leave out the over mat as a whole, just print with big margins).
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