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Author Topic: 20D noise banding.  (Read 3519 times)

Leigh

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20D noise banding.
« on: December 04, 2004, 10:21:39 am »

There is quite a bit of discussion on the subject, on the Galbraith, and Miranda Forums as well.

    At first, it was thought to occur with the camera's on-board flash, but others have reported it to happen without flash, and at ISOs as low as 200 - 400----- Others have reported no banding whatsoever, even at the extreme ISOs' so it seems to be a "sample to sample" camera issue; and in typical fashion, Canon is keeping mum on the issue, leaving it to be sorted out in Forums; so there's no way of knowing weather it's fixable through warranty service, or not???

    I plan on getting a 20D within a  few weeks, and if there's no word from Canon on resolving the problem, I plan to test the camera/s and return any that have the anomaly.

    See additional disscussion:

   http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/151171/0

   http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/155568

Leigh
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RobertJ

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20D noise banding.
« Reply #1 on: December 07, 2004, 07:47:06 am »

There's a new firmware update, (www.dpreview.com) that fixes horizontal line noise when using the flash at high ISO, but a few people say that noise banding is still apparent at high ISO settings.  The firmware update seems to be a good start at fixing this problem though.

T-1000
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RobertJ

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20D noise banding.
« Reply #2 on: December 11, 2004, 07:12:10 pm »

Correct.  It probably won't turn up in ANY of your images.  The 1D2 is probably the most flawless Canon DSLR available.  The 20D has had the biggest problems, and the other models are mostly free of it, unless you're picky.  Hopefully, Canon will release yet, another Firmware update for the 20D.

T-1000
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dnone

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20D noise banding.
« Reply #3 on: December 21, 2004, 03:25:42 pm »

big sorry to you T-1000!

guess I came off pist there...
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philthygeezer

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20D noise banding.
« Reply #4 on: December 03, 2004, 12:50:03 pm »

Anybody else note this phenomena?
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Madness

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20D noise banding.
« Reply #5 on: December 04, 2004, 02:52:53 am »

I don't pay much attention to these things but I have seen it in most ISO3200 shots where there was no detail (sky etc) combined with slightly longer exposures (1/5s and such)

btw I use 3200 on probably 50% of shots
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jd1566

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20D noise banding.
« Reply #6 on: December 06, 2004, 09:39:13 am »

I have seen this problem in my camera and mentionned it in another post to see if I was the only one.  What I have noticed is that it doesn't show up in all photos, but seems more common in the upper ISO range and perhaps when I under expose.  It might have something to do with the bayer pattern algorithm (wow, I managed to spell that, and no, I'm not an engineer).  I noticed it in both my Jpegs and raw files so am assuming that the problem might be between the sensor and the card, ie somehow the way the image is processed in camera.  Before you all jump up and down NO, I haven't done extensive tests but it has been noticeble in about 5% of shots, but not often enough in the same circumstances for me to say A-HA!  However, if others are also talking about it then it definately could be an issue, but not something you can get around by trying different bodies in order to sort out.  A hot pixel yes, but a pattern like this seems more like a programming issue.  Smaller pixels evidently do have their drawbacks.. I must say that after being initially very pleased with my 20D over my 10D, my enthusiasm has waned slightly.  Mind you I still love the camera and it's speed and usability issues, but a "faulty" sensor, whatever the cause, is a right pain in the rear end.  I am hoping that another firmware update is on the cards that can sort this problem out.

If any others have some more insight into this issue I for one would really like to hear what you have to say.
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wjy

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20D noise banding.
« Reply #7 on: December 06, 2004, 08:59:26 pm »

Hello again,
I just got off the phone with canon, and the guy said there is not a firmware upgrade out for this problem.  He wouldn't tell me if they were working on one, and he wouldn't even acknowledge that they had heard of the problem.  He said to send it in, Which I am not going to do yet.  They do record the problem under a case file, so the more people that call and complain the better. get on the phone; 1-800-828-4040.
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dturina

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20D noise banding.
« Reply #8 on: December 07, 2004, 07:47:43 am »

It might interest you to know that Canon has just released a firmware update for 20d that supposedly solves the banding problem. It's on http://web.canon.jp/Imaging/eos20d/eos20d_firmware-e.html
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Danijel

Mike Bailey

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20D noise banding.
« Reply #9 on: December 08, 2004, 07:19:26 am »

Horizontal banding in ISO 3200 and less so in ISO 1600 available light shots is definitely present on the 20D in flat-toned areas, shadows and the light, particularly when exposing for a bright area, like under a single light in a dark room.  

Firmware 1.1.0 update did not affect this aspect at all (no flash being used).  Different RAW developing software has some bearing on how visible the banding is, but it is still present.  At ISO 800 it seems to be visible only when trying to dig out more shadow detail.

Mike
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DiaAzul

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20D noise banding.
« Reply #10 on: December 11, 2004, 05:52:18 pm »

I do a lot of high ISO night photography on the 1dII, yet I have not seen any evidence of banding so far. Perhaps I have the so called 'good' version, but hadn't realised that this affected anything other than the 20D and the 1D from old.

I'll have another look through my prior files, but I don't expect anything dramatic to turn up at this stage.
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Madness

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20D noise banding.
« Reply #11 on: December 12, 2004, 03:21:19 am »

Some people get too obsessed over stuff that doesn't really matter
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RobertJ

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20D noise banding.
« Reply #12 on: December 20, 2004, 08:06:23 pm »

Just because it's obvious that no one else complains as much as they do with the 20D.  Also, I've seen samples, and I really don't think it's a big deal.  It's fair to say that ANY digital device is capable of producing noise banding.  I could care less about all the complaints - I ordered my 20D 2 days ago.  I will run it through tests, but I'd rather use the camera to make photographs, instead of worrying about some hardly noticeable banding problem.  Give me a break.

T-1000
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dvir

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20D noise banding.
« Reply #13 on: December 26, 2004, 02:28:30 pm »

Well
I have tried my friend's 20D - at ISO1600 JPG - bands do show. ISO3200 are very noticable at 100%. Slight level manipulation - and it become very apparent.
I've seen examples that -1EV and post processing the raw - will result in bands even at low ISO (there is an example of ISO100...)

I wants this camera very much (just in my budget) - and Emailed an Email to Canon - requiring is a solution will be available (For example - a kind of "Dark Frame Substraction" - even at post processing)  - hope it will happen - though I am sceptic.

Dvir
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RobertJ

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20D noise banding.
« Reply #14 on: December 03, 2004, 04:40:06 pm »

There's been a lot of discussion on the issue of banding on the 20D in the dpreview forum, but I wouldn't know, since I don't own one.  Sorry

T-1000
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wjy

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20D noise banding.
« Reply #15 on: December 06, 2004, 08:09:31 pm »

Hello,
I was calling it noise in a post I started in this forum about 2 weeks ago, but what I was seeing is definately the banding issue.  I rarely use the in camera flash but have noticed it when using a 550 speedlight.  I have also seen it at iso 400 in the underexposed areas of pictures with no flash.  It is not a nice effect to the photograph.  I haven't called canon yet but I think I will.  Hopefully it is a firmware fix as I don't want to be without my camera for a month.  It appears to be a fairly widespread problem after reading all the other posts at fred Miranda.  I would say lets start bugging canon about it, send e-mails and call them.  This will get them investigating it quicker and hopefully get it fixed.
Happy shooting,
Billy Y.
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RobertJ

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20D noise banding.
« Reply #16 on: December 11, 2004, 03:31:56 pm »

Are you sure this is really a big issue?  I don't own the camera, so this may make me look like a fool, but pretty much ALL of Canon's newest cameras have this "problem," except for the old school 300D and 10D.  The 1d, 1ds, 1d2, and 1ds2 all have this problem, (if that's what you want to call it) in certain situations.  I've heard that if you expose correctly, you should have no problem.  However, if you shoot into a lens cap at ISO 3200, then you can see it.  Good thing you don't make 20x30 inch prints of lens cap images.

T-1000
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dnone

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20D noise banding.
« Reply #17 on: December 20, 2004, 06:21:48 pm »

Quote
The 20D has had the biggest problems, and the other models are mostly free of it, T-1000
T-100000000000?? how many '0'??

how can you make such a statement without having used the camera a t  A L L??
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RobertJ

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20D noise banding.
« Reply #18 on: December 26, 2004, 04:44:21 pm »

I received my new 20D a few days ago.  It came with firmware 1.1.0 installed already, surprisingly.  (Maybe it's one of the latest models).  So far, I have no complaints, at all.  The images are some of the cleanest I've seen, aside from the 1d mark 2.  This is one of the best cameras I've ever used, and I'm happy to add it to my arsenal.

T-1000
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dvir

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20D noise banding.
« Reply #19 on: December 27, 2004, 06:30:46 am »

Hi
I actually am envy of you  :)

Did you try the ISO3200 or ISO1600 ?

Dvir
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