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Author Topic: Sinar creates adapter to mount DSLRs as digital backs  (Read 29677 times)

Steve Hendrix

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« Reply #20 on: July 30, 2010, 04:11:48 pm »

I salute those who create their own solutions.

I also see nothing wrong with a manufacturer designing a solution that is produced within measured tolerances, with quality, and with consistency for photographers to purchase in greater numbers. The cost is what it is. I rarely have an issue with the manufacturer and what they charge for their product. The fee for their product is the end result of what research, time, materials, labor, marketing, distribution and ultimately, the market itself, as well as the profit margin, determines it needs to be. No different from what every one of us does. Can something be overpriced? Yes, but - generally - that is in the eye of the purchaser, not in the design of the manufacturer. I just don't get mad at manufacturers for producing photographic tools and charging whatever they feel they need to for the necessary profit. I may feel it is overpriced - but the implication that the manufacturer is gouging customers I usually don't hold with. I don't know any photographic manufacturers who are making Exxon-type profits.

I don't see this as a huge seller for Sinar (nor are other similar solutions). Then again, just because something isn't a huge seller doesn't mean it is not a successful product, both for the end user and the manufacturer. It is one sku in a considerable product line. And I don't see this as "turning away" from medium format. But if they are indeed going to concentrate on making cameras for 3rd party imagers, then why not Canon? I don't think it makes any statement on medium format at all.

I forget who, but someone made a rebuttal comment on a "good enough" line in one of my posts and I thought it made perfect sense and I had no real answer to it other than to agree. Something to the effect that photographers have always chosen the tools that are "good enough". I think that is a good statement. If the client is satisfied with the result and the photographer got whatever he needed out of that product to deliver the result, then the use of that product would be at least, prudent. Do photographers need to choose tools that are "better than good enough"? In many cases, no, and in many of those cases it would not be wise for them to do so. On the other hand, some photographers do choose "better than good enough", often for their own reasons, rather than client satisfaction. I accept and can understand both viewpoints. As a result, the term "good enough" is not meant as a slight anymore when I use it. From that standpoint, in re-reading Doug's post, I don't see any slight either, only an acknowledgement that there are those who do not operate under the "good enough" guidelines and who may choose different solutions accordingly.


Steve Hendrix

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Doug Peterson

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« Reply #21 on: July 30, 2010, 04:12:25 pm »

Quote from: CBarrett
Sometimes I find Cooter's omnipresence a little frightening.

I for one welcome our new board overlords :-).

All in good fun.

fredjeang

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« Reply #22 on: July 30, 2010, 04:59:06 pm »

Quote from: JonathanBenoit
I swear that every post of yours is about motion taking over photography. Don't you get bored of writing the same thing?
I don't understand (neither like) this hostility with the BC post. He might have touched some sensitive subject.

Well, motion is part of the photographic language now, like it or not, understand it or not.

In a question of years, the clients needs and behaviour have changed, yes they have changed faster in the areas BCooter is working but no doubt that those will hit all the photography genres.

Michael Reichmann pointed many times here, and better that pointing I would say warned many times about the need for the photographer to embrasse video.
Soon 3D imagery is coming and you can laugh but it will be there faster than we think and the question remains if you want to keep going ignoring this or not.
Paper, in art, has not a long time either, in advertising it is declining seriously and I know that because I have my spys in 2 enormous printers and media groups.
Many members will jump immediatly against that, but it does not matter how high you bark, the days of paper are numbered. The countdown have already started.
If you ignore the changes, that's fine and respectable, but there's a price to pay.

Thank god we have in this forum photographers like BC who are in the first places to bring us valuable and reliable concepts about what's going on in the real world.
Because internet forum are far from describing the real world I'm afraid and turn over sensitive when certain topics are discussed.

I share BC statements about MF manufacturers, about video and about the changes that is facing photography.
And if I'm correct he also work MF on a regular basis. And that is where all the story starts. On the forums there are all kind of opinions about anything.

I still remember the Gwift complains about the tether and all that stuff. It results that more I do my steps in this world and gain experience, that I experimented exactly what Gwift, J.Russell etc...are talking about.
Exactly. When I was in my studio on my own I could also invent, speculate and opinate whatever I wanted. But when you start to work in serious then you realise how good are some posters.

Actually I miss Gwift, Tmark posts in this forum and I hope that James Russell will keep going to write regularly. I don't get bored of reading the same things because I know who is behind the keyboard.
Video matters, it's fun, creative and a source of incomes for the photographer.  

I think that when we criticize MF, it is because we would like to see some improvement in usability, and we would like to see those because we want the MF brands to be there and work with MF gear
not because we want them to disappear.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2010, 05:46:45 pm by fredjeang »
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craigwashburn

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« Reply #23 on: July 31, 2010, 11:11:05 pm »

Quote from: CBarrett
I believe you are.  These are cool and all, I have one for my Arca, but they have a lot of limitations, namely the use of wide lenses.  Maybe you could use wide Medium Format lenses, since they have a retrofocus design, but if you are going to use a view camera, why settle for lenses that are not quite as sharp as Rodenstock and Schneider's just so you can put a dslr on?

Ooohhh, you know what I haven't tried yet?  Putting the 5d on and shooting video.... video with a view camera...ROFL.... I am such a geek!


CB


Cambo's had this for a few years at least.  http://www.cambo.com/Html/products_photo/s...et/Item612.html   I know some product shooters that have used them, to mixed reviews.

Cambo also sells Schneider digitars with what appears to be some kind of retrofocus add-on optics and aperture.

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Steve Hendrix

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« Reply #24 on: August 01, 2010, 04:21:48 pm »

Quote from: craigwashburn
Cambo's had this for a few years at least.  http://www.cambo.com/Html/products_photo/s...et/Item612.html   I know some product shooters that have used them, to mixed reviews.

Cambo also sells Schneider digitars with what appears to be some kind of retrofocus add-on optics and aperture.


We've been playing around recently with this:

*Cambo X2 & Cambo adapters/bellows for Mamiya mount
*Phase One P65+ in M/P1 mount
*Mamiya RZ Lenses

We'll report soon. You could also use Hasselblad V and RB lenses with this combination (or with any digital back in M/P1 mount). Just one more option to consider for medium format tilt/shift-based capture.


Steve Hendrix


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photoshutter

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« Reply #25 on: August 01, 2010, 11:15:43 pm »

I think Cambo X2 Pro is one of the best solutions, I love to work on Cambo 4x5 with Flex Adapter to stitch for large files.
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JeffKohn

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« Reply #26 on: August 02, 2010, 10:06:45 am »

Quote from: photoshutter
I think Cambo X2 Pro is one of the best solutions.
For studio use, maybe. Doesn't that thing weigh 10 or 12 pounds?

The M-Line 2 seems to be by far the lightest of these DSLR-VC's, weighing just over 4lbs. I know which one I'd rather carry on the trail.
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Phil Indeblanc

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« Reply #27 on: August 02, 2010, 02:40:20 pm »

Quote from: Steve Hendrix
We've been playing around recently with this:


I like that with the RZ lens.  Wonder if there is one I can put in front of the Sinar.


Why am I under the impression that Caonon L 35mm lens are sharpoer than 4x5, say APO 210 (1980 and later)?  And RZ's lens, are they sharper?

I notice the Rodenstock 210 Macro is sharp. Would a top 35 lens or a RZ lens out resolve ?  I would expect the newer HR or Digitars to be the sharpest of all.

I am sure this is also discussed somewhere...if anyone has some links comparing, please post.  I know many shouldn't care, as I fully understand the tech is usually not so critical with so much top gear that all one needs to do is stop the tech talk and just shoot...as that is very true on many levels. For specific subjects and scientific photography it does make a difference, so please understand that there is a need to know.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2010, 04:45:30 pm by Phil Indeblanc »
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PatrikR

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« Reply #28 on: August 03, 2010, 03:34:18 am »

The best way to shoot video would be to tear a Canon 5D 2 completely apart and have the sensor moved forward flush with the lens mount. This is the only way to avoid the mirror box vigneting that is so evident with all these products. Such modification would also allow wide angle lenses.

So you need to make a digital back out of a Canon 5D2... And that is funny!
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Patrik Raski - Espoo, Finland

PatrikR

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« Reply #29 on: August 03, 2010, 03:36:24 am »

Quote from: Phil Indeblanc
I like that with the RZ lens.  Wonder if there is one I can put in front of the Sinar.


Why am I under the impression that Caonon L 35mm lens are sharpoer than 4x5, say APO 210 (1980 and later)?  And RZ's lens, are they sharper?

I notice the Rodenstock 210 Macro is sharp. Would a top 35 lens or a RZ lens out resolve ?  I would expect the newer HR or Digitars to be the sharpest of all.

I am sure this is also discussed somewhere...if anyone has some links comparing, please post.  I know many shouldn't care, as I fully understand the tech is usually not so critical with so much top gear that all one needs to do is stop the tech talk and just shoot...as that is very true on many levels. For specific subjects and scientific photography it does make a difference, so please understand that there is a need to know.

Most 4x5 lenses are pretty much useless. Maybe ok for video but for photography no. Use medium format lenses or specific HR digital lenses for Sinar.
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Patrik Raski - Espoo, Finland

HarperPhotos

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« Reply #30 on: August 03, 2010, 03:50:32 am »

Quote from: PatrikR
Most 4x5 lenses are pretty much useless. Maybe ok for video but for photography no. Use medium format lenses or specific HR digital lenses for Sinar.

Hello,

I am curious to know what you mean by the comment “Most 4x5 lenses are pretty much useless”.

I have a range of Rodenstock Apo- Sironar film lenses from 45mm up to 300mm as well as a range of Rodenstock Apo-Rodagon lens which I use with a Horseman VCC adaptor with a Leaf Aptus 75 back and get spectacular results.

I have a couple of Rodenstock Apo-Sironar Digital HR lenses and I can not see any superiority in image quality to the above lenses.

Cheers

Simon
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PatrikR

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« Reply #31 on: August 03, 2010, 04:27:04 am »

Quote from: HarperPhotos
Hello,

I am curious to know what you mean by the comment “Most 4x5 lenses are pretty much useless”.

I have a range of Rodenstock Apo- Sironar film lenses from 45mm up to 300mm as well as a range of Rodenstock Apo-Rodagon lens which I use with a Horseman VCC adaptor with a Leaf Aptus 75 back and get spectacular results.

I have a couple of Rodenstock Apo-Sironar Digital HR lenses and I can not see any superiority in image quality to the above lenses.

Cheers

Simon

In my opinion they were just soft. I have 210mm Sinar, 90mm f4.5 Sinar and bunch of other lenses. Maybe your lenses are better but I did not like those I had. That is why I think they are useless, but of course they can be used:)

I did receive best results with a 90mm Mamiya RZ lens. Hassie 40mm was ok. My Hassie 40mm is old though. Also the retrofocal design helps. With 4x5 lenses the mirror box vigneting was more substantial than compared to a retro focal lens. It is quite a few years ago when I made the test and I can't find the photos anymore but I compared the Sinaron 90 f4.5 to the Mamiya RZ 90mm, both new at the time, and the Mamiya gave sharper images.

I still don't like my 4x5 lenses if I shoot with P45 which I have. I prefer to use those digital lenses which are very sharp.

But yes useless was bad wording.

Excuse moi...
« Last Edit: August 03, 2010, 04:27:46 am by PatrikR »
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Patrik Raski - Espoo, Finland

Dick Roadnight

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« Reply #32 on: August 03, 2010, 06:24:22 am »

Quote from: PatrikR
Most 4x5 lenses are pretty much useless. Maybe ok for video but for photography no. Use medium format lenses or specific HR digital lenses for Sinar.
I think most LF lenses would limit the res if used with a modern 5 micron digital back... but I think that the Schneider Fine Art Gold lenses would work well with the 10*10cm 9 micron (astro) back that was mentioned here on LuLa a while back.

And if you want extreme movements without the need for high res, the relatively large image circle of LF lenses can be useful.
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Phil Indeblanc

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« Reply #33 on: August 03, 2010, 06:43:17 am »

Quote from: Dick Roadnight
I think most LF lenses would limit the res if used with a modern 5 micron digital back... but I think that the Schneider Fine Art Gold lenses would work well with the 10*10cm 9 micron (astro) back that was mentioned here on LuLa a while back.

And if you want extreme movements without the need for high res, the relatively large image circle of LF lenses can be useful.


Thats my point...with a ...say a 5Dmark2 and say a Rodenstock Macro LF lens would like be worse than say a RZ lens or a Canon 50, 100, 180 Marco, or other primes.

So would a RZ 140Macro, or 180short make for sharper images?  Or would a Canon lens be better?

Do you come full circle?having the same shallow DOF as the MFdB with a LF lens, as you would with a 5Dmrk2 and RZ or 10035mm lens?
Or is this only usfull for stills that are not detail critical?

The Live View of newer DSLR would be a nice advantage vs some MFdB that dont have as nice of one.
The speed
The hoping longer DOF
The ISO and other chip advantages mentioned such as video
The flexibility of using one body

Its late, hard to come up with more for now
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Dick Roadnight

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« Reply #34 on: August 03, 2010, 07:29:37 am »

Quote from: Phil Indeblanc
Thats my point...with a ...say a 5Dmark2 and say a Rodenstock Macro LF lens would like be worse than say a RZ lens or a Canon 50, 100, 180 Marco, or other primes.

So would a RZ 140Macro, or 180short make for sharper images?  Or would a Canon lens be better?
In a foolish moment I bought a Macro Sinaron 300mm  f5.6, and I have a Schneider Apo-Digitar 120... and I expect them to be like chalk and cheese.
Quote
The Live View of newer DSLR would be a nice advantage vs some MFdB that dont have as nice of one.
I have a MFDB with live view, but with the new Sinar adapter it should be possible to put something like a Panasonic G11 on the back of a Sinar and get colour live view on the camera (without having to tether to a computer). I look forward to the day when, on a £30K camera, you get what you take for granted on a £300 camera!
Quote
The speed
The hoping longer DOF
The ISO and other chip advantages mentioned such as video
All other things being equal DOF depends on magnification ratio, so, if you put a point-and-shoot on the back of a Sinar, for the same subject size, you get more DOF than you would with a FF DSLR or a MFDB.
Quote
Its late, hard to come up with more for now
If you think it is late at mid-day... I assume that you are not from round here!
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ondebanks

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« Reply #35 on: August 03, 2010, 07:33:37 am »

Quote from: Steve Hendrix
We've been playing around recently with this:

*Cambo X2 & Cambo adapters/bellows for Mamiya mount
*Phase One P65+ in M/P1 mount
*Mamiya RZ Lenses

We'll report soon. You could also use Hasselblad V and RB lenses with this combination (or with any digital back in M/P1 mount). Just one more option to consider for medium format tilt/shift-based capture.


Steve Hendrix
Steve, now that's what I'm talking about! Bet you've been having lots of fun playing with that. How much does the Cambo X2 setup as pictured (RZ lens mount, 645AF/P1 body mount) cost? My home-rigged Toyo setup is a poor man's version of that (very poor, as in practically destitute perhaps?). A recessed lensboard, a scavenged RZ bayonet and I'll be there. The Cambo's main advantage is that the bellows tapers down to the camera bayonet and thus saves several mm over my 4x5-lensboard based system where camera grip clearance had to be allowed for. Someone working professionally will also appreciate the Cambo's finer controls (not that the Toyo's are bad, with geared shift and rise; they're plenty good for me as an enthusiast and tinkerer).

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JeffKohn

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« Reply #36 on: August 03, 2010, 11:59:24 am »

Quote from: Steve Hendrix
We've been playing around recently with this:

*Cambo X2 & Cambo adapters/bellows for Mamiya mount
*Phase One P65+ in M/P1 mount
*Mamiya RZ Lenses

We'll report soon. You could also use Hasselblad V and RB lenses with this combination (or with any digital back in M/P1 mount). Just one more option to consider for medium format tilt/shift-based capture.
Only downside to the X2 is all movements are on front standard. Rear-standard shift would be preferable for stitching.
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Jeff Kohn
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tho_mas

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« Reply #37 on: August 03, 2010, 05:27:51 pm »

Quote from: JeffKohn
Only downside to the X2 is all movements are on front standard. Rear-standard shift would be preferable for stitching.
Stitching, stitching...
I don't think the image circles of the RZ lenses are large enough to really take advantage of stitching (?).
It's obviously more appropriate for moderate shift (in single captures) and tilt/swing.
Looks promising... IMO.
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JeffKohn

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« Reply #38 on: August 03, 2010, 07:09:10 pm »

Quote from: tho_mas
Stitching, stitching...
I don't think the image circles of the RZ lenses are large enough to really take advantage of stitching (?).
It's obviously more appropriate for moderate shift (in single captures) and tilt/swing.
The X2 is also compatible with LF lenses, which would have plenty big enough image circle for stitching.
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Jeff Kohn
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tho_mas

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« Reply #39 on: August 03, 2010, 07:25:08 pm »

Quote from: JeffKohn
The X2 is also compatible with LF lenses, which would have plenty big enough image circle for stitching.
It would only work with very long lenses (if you want to focus to infinity) due to the distance to the sensor. Too, - even if possible - still limited due to the mirror housing (vignetting).
Phase One backs are detachable so a tech camera is the way to go here.
The X2 Pro is a solution in between... it is certainly not primarly for stitching in conjunction with a MF camera.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2010, 07:27:05 pm by tho_mas »
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