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Author Topic: Canon 6300 Black&White Printing  (Read 13460 times)

oolic

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Canon 6300 Black&White Printing
« on: July 27, 2010, 11:54:59 pm »

Hi,

For years I have been printing B&W with a Epson 2200 on Epson's Enhanced Matte paper using R.Harringtons QTR RIP and am very happy with this combination.
Wanting to print larger,I'm now seriously considering the Canon ipf6300 over the Epson 7900. I'm not willing to risk my time and money with the head clogging/ink use problems, reported and personally experienced, with the large format Epson printers.

A few stumbling blocks are in the way with the Canon printer though...QTR does not support Canon and True Black and White (trueblackandwhite.com) does not support my OS ,(Vista 64bit), only MAC, and they will not support Windows in the immediate future. So i'm left with the Canon B&W driver. Other RIPs are out of my $$$ range

To the folks here that use the Canon B&W drivers on the 6300, how is it working out for you? I know this is very subjective but would like to get a general feeling. Any other thoughts and suggestions would be appreciated.

Thanks..

Richard, Florida Keys

 

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keith_cooper

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Canon 6300 Black&White Printing
« Reply #1 on: July 28, 2010, 03:53:03 am »

Quote from: oolic
...To the folks here that use the Canon B&W drivers on the 6300, how is it working out for you? I know this is very subjective but would like to get a general feeling. Any other thoughts and suggestions would be appreciated.
I looked carefully at the B/W side of things in the review I've just written - it's in part 2 at
B/W printing on the iPF6300

With the driver it's very good, although I'd want to consider improving linearity with some papers with a QTR linearising ICC profile.

I note that in BW mode you can load an acr curve file which would produce similar results - if I had the printer I might actually look at developing an application to produce an acr correcting file from a measurements file - this would make linearisation very easy (or is there such a program out there already?)

I have also looked at TBW (we're Mac based) and apart from its somewhat idiosyncratic approach to paper sizes, it gives good results.

Here's me with a B/W print :-)

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JeffKohn

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« Reply #2 on: July 28, 2010, 06:44:03 pm »

I'm using the monochrome mode of the 6300 (from the PS print plugin). I find the output to be very good. I have a spectro, so I used the QuadtoneRIP test charts and profile utilities to create monochrome ICC's for the papers I use. For glossy papers with a high DMax, you may get perfectly acceptable results without the profiling step.

But for matte papers, I find that without a profile or curve adjustment, the output of the monochrome printing mode is too linear. That may sound counter-intuitive, since linearity is generally considered a good thing. But for matte papers, your black point is going to be at about L*=17. With black mapped to L*=17 and perfectly linear output from there to white, you end up with the mid-tones being considerably lighter than they should be. This results in weak-looking prints. It's quite easy to see this by printing Keith's B/W Test Image on matte paper, first with the mono printing mode and no profile/curve, then again with an RGB profile and the regular RGB printing mode.

The QuadtoneRIP ICC profile will add a bit of compression to the shadows, to get the mid-tones back down closer to where they should be. The result is a much nicer looking print IMHO (and the shadows still retain more detail than they printing in RGB mode with an i1-generated color profile). So for matte papers I think the QTR profiling is important.

I prefer warm-toned prints, and that's quite easy with the mono print mode. If you prefer neutral prints, you may find that difficult to achieve with 3rd-party papers (although you should get good results with Canon's papers that have a specific media type setting). The problem with 3rd party papers is that the toning control is a simple x,y adjustment, it doesn't give you curve-based toning adjustments like QTR does. So you may not be able to get neutral results in the shadows and the upper mid-tones, it really just depends on the paper in question. If I wanted to make neutral prints on 3rd-party papers, I'd probably use a custom RGB profile rather than the monochrome printing mode. The main downside is that shadow detail will suffer a bit (maybe not noticeable depending on the image).

It's a shame QuadtoneRIP only supports Epson printers, especially since it apparently won't be able to support newer Epsons starting with the 7900. AFAIK there's no technical hurdle preventing Canon support (after all, both QTR and TBW are based on the Gutenberg print engine from what I understand). TBW looks interesting, but I am a Windows guy so it's a non-starter for me.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2010, 11:04:43 pm by JeffKohn »
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Scott Martin

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« Reply #3 on: July 28, 2010, 08:06:00 pm »

Quote from: JeffKohn
TBW looks interesting, but I'm not a Windows guy so it's a non-starter for me.
Bowhaus's True Black and White is Mac only and it's way more advanced and Mac-like than QTR. Definitely worth downloading the trial version! Together, TBW and Canon's new inks are a real plus for B&W enthusiasts.

Quote from: JeffKohn
To the folks here that use the Canon B&W drivers on the 6300, how is it working out for you?
For most users, the need for a B&W RIP has passed as all three brands now have excellent Advanced Black and White modes complete with hue control. At this point B&W RIPs are more for those that want to geek out with complex split toning, custom linearization and profiling. The number of people using B&W RIPs with the latest printers is pretty darn small but it's a nice option for B&W enthusiasts with the willingness to geek out on the process.

Richard, you might want to do some hands-on printing on a 6300 prior to purchasing if possible, and perhaps on the 7900 as well to make a well informed decision.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2010, 08:20:04 pm by Onsight »
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oolic

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« Reply #4 on: July 28, 2010, 09:59:38 pm »

Thank you gentlemen for your informative reply. I can see that this will not be the "plug & play" that I would have wished for, but nontheless, some interesting problems to solve.
What I have taken away sofar, if I understand what has been said, is that 3rd party paper manufacturers profiles will not work in monochrome mode in the 6300. And there is a linearization problem to overcome in general. With that said, I'll look into what hardware I might need to generate a linearization profile if cost is within reason.
Yes, it is too bad that QTR has no support for Canon printers...I wonder why? It seems like some developers get so focused into supporting one platform or product line they may feel like it would be starting over to support more that one system.
I wish I could try a 6300 out but it is hard to find someone running one in the Florida Keys or nearby...But to be honest, I have not really tried. I'm taking a pass on the Epson 7900 for reasons stated earlier.
I have enjoyed your websites but by no means understand all that I'm reading though...But I'm trying and am thankful for all your efforts.

Any more thoghts and ideas are appreciated ,and if/when I have more questions or observations I'll be back.

Thanks again.

Regards, Richard
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JeffKohn

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« Reply #5 on: July 28, 2010, 11:14:07 pm »

Quote from: Onsight
Bowhaus's True Black and White is Mac only and it's way more advanced and Mac-like than QTR. Definitely worth downloading the trial version! Together, TBW and Canon's new inks are a real plus for B&W enthusiasts.
Unfortunate typo on my part, what I mean to say is that I am a Windows guy. So Mac-only software isn't an option.

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Ernst Dinkla

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« Reply #6 on: July 29, 2010, 03:25:09 am »

Quote from: JeffKohn
I'm using the monochrome mode of the 6300 (from the PS print plugin). I find the output to be very good. I have a spectro, so I used the QuadtoneRIP test charts and profile utilities to create monochrome ICC's for the papers I use. For glossy papers with a high DMax, you may get perfectly acceptable results without the profiling step.

But for matte papers, I find that without a profile or curve adjustment, the output of the monochrome printing mode is too linear. That may sound counter-intuitive, since linearity is generally considered a good thing. But for matte papers, your black point is going to be at about L*=17. With black mapped to L*=17 and perfectly linear output from there to white, you end up with the mid-tones being considerably lighter than they should be. This results in weak-looking prints. It's quite easy to see this by printing Keith's B/W Test Image on matte paper, first with the mono printing mode and no profile/curve, then again with an RGB profile and the regular RGB printing mode.

The QuadtoneRIP ICC profile will add a bit of compression to the shadows, to get the mid-tones back down closer to where they should be. The result is a much nicer looking print IMHO (and the shadows still retain more detail than they printing in RGB mode with an i1-generated color profile). So for matte papers I think the QTR profiling is important.

It's a shame QuadtoneRIP only supports Epson printers, especially since it apparently won't be able to support newer Epsons starting with the 7900. AFAIK there's no technical hurdle preventing Canon support (after all, both QTR and TBW are based on the Gutenberg print engine from what I understand). TBW looks interesting, but I am a Windows guy so it's a non-starter for me.

QTR depends on what driver support is available in Gimp/Gutenprint. I don't think there's support for the HP Z models, Canon's iPF range and the Epson x900 models yet in the mother software.

It is nicer to have near linear output from a calibrated printer and then create QTR profiles to add the better perceptual tone range. But it can happen that the printer already gives a perceptually nice tone range right after calibration. In that case the QTR profile has little to do yet for the sake of "CM" consistency in the workflow one could still use the QTR profile.


met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla

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deanwork

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« Reply #7 on: July 29, 2010, 04:15:25 pm »

Epson won't give Roy the codes to write the driver for QTR on the new Epson printers like the 9900. I guess they are afraid he might show them up, again, like he always has. I think this is probably the end of the line for of our love of QTR and Epson printers.

The 12 channel systems are just too much for him to deal with for the pocket change he makes out of it, and they might just shut him out too after he does all that laborious work. We're moving into a new era of total corporate control over drivers, inks and probably media too before it is over with. Everything is starting to become proprietary like Apple.  I expect to see most of the rips we use fade away in the next year or two. It will be a shame. If all the new printers were not so good I'd probably cry about it all.

The exception might be Bauhaus working with Canon on the True Black and White interface. I hope that lasts because there is real promise there with this latest Canon inkset and its lack of gloss issues for the black and white gloss fiber media. I don't know if Bauhaus is receiving financial support from Canon or if they are just tolerating their existence, or if they are quietly encouraging it , or what. But it looks like it might be a great marriage if they can live together in harmony.

j




QTR depends on what driver support is available in Gimp/Gutenprint. I don't think there's support for the HP Z models, Canon's iPF range and the Epson x900 models yet in the mother software.

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keith_cooper

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« Reply #8 on: July 29, 2010, 04:55:14 pm »

Quote from: deanwork
...The exception might be Bauhaus working with Canon on the True Black and White interface...
Well I'm currently writing up some info on using TBW and have to say that Canon's UK LFP people were interested in this.

I suspect that TBW has not been used much outside of the US, since there were issues with metric paper sizes in the first version I tried - this was pretty quickly fixed, so given the interaction I've had during the review process, I'm hopeful that it can continue to develop.

My own difficulty (in developing this further) is that the 6300 had to go back to Canon and I'm unlikely to be buying a new LF printer until later in the year when I'm back from a trip to the US.
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oolic

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« Reply #9 on: July 29, 2010, 05:33:10 pm »

dean, I'm afraid that you are right. One is seeing more total control over more sophisticated products..Our brave new world.

Regards, Richard
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hsmeets

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« Reply #10 on: July 30, 2010, 03:28:17 pm »

Quote from: oolic
Thank you gentlemen for your informative reply. I can see that this will not be the "plug & play" that I would have wished for, but nontheless, some interesting problems to solve.
What I have taken away sofar, if I understand what has been said, is that 3rd party paper manufacturers profiles will not work in monochrome mode in the 6300. And there is a linearization problem to overcome in general. With that said, I'll look into what hardware I might need to generate a linearization profile if cost is within reason.
Yes, it is too bad that QTR has no support for Canon printers...I wonder why? It seems like some developers get so focused into supporting one platform or product line they may feel like it would be starting over to support more that one system.
I wish I could try a 6300 out but it is hard to find someone running one in the Florida Keys or nearby...But to be honest, I have not really tried. I'm taking a pass on the Epson 7900 for reasons stated earlier.
I have enjoyed your websites but by no means understand all that I'm reading though...But I'm trying and am thankful for all your efforts.

Any more thoghts and ideas are appreciated ,and if/when I have more questions or observations I'll be back.

Thanks again.

Regards, Richard

It's not all doom and gloom as it may sound from your post :-)

I don''t user RIP's, I have not linearized whatever there is to linearize, I only bought a profiling kit to make my own profile as the profile from the paper supplier did not do it for me (softproof/print). I print all my B&W leaving the export print plugin in color mode so I can use my own created profiles........

.....and I'm very pleased with the output of my ipf5100 (coming from a wet darkroom).





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oolic

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« Reply #11 on: July 31, 2010, 08:01:13 am »

Thanks Huib, Did not mean to sound too doom and gloomy. I'm going to order the 6300 this coming week. I'm thinking of picking up a Spyder 3 Print SR for profiling/linearization. I read Keith Coopers rightup on the Spyder and was wondering if anyone else had any comments regarding the Spyder 3 Print SR.

Thanks, Richard
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Paul Roark

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« Reply #12 on: July 31, 2010, 12:44:18 pm »

Quote from: deanwork
... Everything is starting to become proprietary ...

The non-OEM B&W options seem rather healthy to me.  Those based on 100% carbon pigment inks also handily beat the OEM solutions with respect to fade and tone shift -- with a delta-e of about 1/3 that OEMs in Aardenburg-Imaging fade testing.  See http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com/acceleratedagingtests.html

The dilute carbon inks can be used in virtually any Epson printer.  But, it is clearly an "alternative process" for those who want to save lots of money and make the most stable digital prints possible.

See http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/ for more on the approaches I'm using.

Paul
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keith_cooper

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« Reply #13 on: July 31, 2010, 01:15:37 pm »

Quote from: Paul Roark
The dilute carbon inks can be used in virtually any Epson printer.  But, it is clearly an "alternative process" for those who want to save lots of money and make the most stable digital prints possible.

Whilst I'd have no difficulties with the idea of such 3rd party inks - I do have difficulties in keeping a large format printer loaded solely with such inks (that and the fact that I'm in the UK where such inks are often 'import only')

It is a solution for those with deeper pockets or a much bigger trade in B/W print sales than fits comfortably in my own business (which is what would pay for such kit).

Being foremost a commercial photographer, print sales represent a relatively small part of the business, so a printer ideally needs to support colour and B/W (I don't have space for a collection of LF printers -- well actually I did have, but got married earlier this year ;-) )

The B/W capabilities of the new Canon printers (particularly with software like TBW) have got my interest, and I can see the print room looking quite different by the end of the year...
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artobest

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« Reply #14 on: August 02, 2010, 09:24:43 am »

Having bought my Z3200ps largely for the famed neutrality of its quad-black inkset, I now find myself increasingly toning my black and white work. Oh well, c'est la vie.
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TylerB

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« Reply #15 on: August 02, 2010, 01:25:22 pm »

Quote from: Paul Roark
The non-OEM B&W options seem rather healthy to me...

Paul, despite the longevity performance and other qualities that make these processes superior for some of us, their health in the marketplace and future existence has to be considered quite low.
The trend over the last several product cycles has been to lock out the ability to use these superior B&W inksets and the drivers or RIPs necessary to utilize them to their highest advantage. This trend has now resulted in a complete lock out of all current printers on the market.
Our only option at this point is to keep our older models limping along, and now we've even been locked out of buying parts for older printers to do so.
Tyler
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deanwork

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« Reply #16 on: August 02, 2010, 02:04:11 pm »

That's right. There is nothing "healthy" about it.



Quote from: TylerB
Paul, despite the longevity performance and other qualities that make these processes superior for some of us, their health in the marketplace and future existence has to be considered quite low.
The trend over the last several product cycles has been to lock out the ability to use these superior B&W inksets and the drivers or RIPs necessary to utilize them to their highest advantage. This trend has now resulted in a complete lock out of all current printers on the market.
Our only option at this point is to keep our older models limping along, and now we've even been locked out of buying parts for older printers to do so.
Tyler
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TylerB

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Re: Canon 6300 Black&White Printing
« Reply #17 on: February 23, 2011, 01:51:01 pm »

Been playing with a loaner of this printer and doing some tests. Can't seem to invoke the monochrome option in the export module... file is grayscale, etc.. plugin and driver versions are latest... all other options and functions are avalable.
I'm waiting for a membership from the wiki just to ask this question there... seems a bit too laborious.. thought I'd ask here.
Anyone know?
THanks,
Tyler
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keith_cooper

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Re: Canon 6300 Black&White Printing
« Reply #18 on: February 23, 2011, 02:09:57 pm »

I've been using B/W on the 8300 quite a lot, no problems.

Just one thought, is the media type a 'Special' one?  No B/W there.

See here for more
http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/reviews/printer/canon_ipf8300.html#mono_print_mode

Why this deficiency persists? I've asked Canon UK and they've passed on the query up the chain...

My solution is to use custom media setting when I want to use B/W mode

See also this for potential issues with the B/W mode under some lighting
http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/article_pages/bw_printing/issues_with_grey.html
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TylerB

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Re: Canon 6300 Black&White Printing
« Reply #19 on: February 23, 2011, 02:47:53 pm »

Hi Keith, thanks that was the problem.. so I see there is no way within the plugin to accept profiles, either single channel qtr profiles, rgb qtr profiles, or standard rgb profiles for luminosity correction for monochrome output as the ability to select any profile in mono mode is disabled. So are you preconverting before export if you choose that route?
Tyler
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