Pages: 1 [2] 3   Go Down

Author Topic: MF and LF: Their time is a coming!  (Read 13592 times)

BJL

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6600
MF and LF: Their time is a coming!
« Reply #20 on: July 26, 2010, 09:05:18 am »

Quote from: shutay
See for example, this PDF.
The pixel size mentioned is 150 microns, with the targets being gear for large X-rays like chest X-rays. LCD fab. gear is at far coarser size scales than the IC fab. gear needed for MF or LF sensors; for example 3.5 micron minimum feature size in Nikon's LCD steppers:
http://www.nikon.com/products/precision/lineup/fx/index.htm
« Last Edit: July 26, 2010, 09:08:34 am by BJL »
Logged

eronald

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6642
    • My gallery on Instagram
MF and LF: Their time is a coming!
« Reply #21 on: July 26, 2010, 10:49:52 am »

Quote from: BJL
The pixel size mentioned is 150 microns, with the targets being gear for large X-rays like chest X-rays. LCD fab. gear is at far coarser size scales than the IC fab. gear needed for MF or LF sensors; for example 3.5 micron minimum feature size in Nikon's LCD steppers:
http://www.nikon.com/products/precision/lineup/fx/index.htm

 If it can be done now, wait 10 years and the pixel density in every fab process, LCD included will have gone up by a factor of 10.

Edmund
« Last Edit: July 26, 2010, 10:51:32 am by eronald »
Logged
If you appreciate my blog posts help me by following on https://instagram.com/edmundronald

BJL

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6600
MF and LF: Their time is a coming!
« Reply #22 on: July 26, 2010, 11:33:54 am »

Quote from: eronald
If it can be done now, wait 10 years and the pixel density in every fab process, LCD included will have gone up by a factor of 10.
Why would LCD's even need pixels that small? Somewhere not much beyond 300ppi becomes pointless due to the limits of our eyes, and even a very extreme 1000ppi is 25 microns, far too large for a MF sensor: it would give under 4MP in full 645 format.

I take it that you are simply guessing optimistically in this thread, given the lack of arguments or evidence to support your predictions.

P. S. one design limitation is angular resolution of fab. devices, related to lower limits on numerical aperture. That sets an upper limit on pixel counts, with larger format devices like LCD fab's having larger minimum feature size.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2010, 11:36:04 am by BJL »
Logged

deejjjaaaa

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1170
MF and LF: Their time is a coming!
« Reply #23 on: July 26, 2010, 02:48:47 pm »

Quote from: yaya
Really?


read Dalsa techies : http://66.11.147.102/public/corp/pdfs/pape...9_Large_CCD.pdf

I can see the words "stitch", "stitching" used there... and that was 2009
« Last Edit: July 26, 2010, 02:55:13 pm by deja »
Logged

feppe

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2906
  • Oh this shows up in here!
    • Harri Jahkola Photography
MF and LF: Their time is a coming!
« Reply #24 on: July 26, 2010, 03:20:59 pm »

Quote from: rueyloon
how about this

$25,000 for a HAT !

http://www.brentblack.com/pages/best_02.html

is it because the hat of worth 25k ? or is there because there are people who WANT to spend
25k hence they have to create a hat for those people ?

replace hat with photography and discuss

Dammit! I'm going to Panama in November - and now I have to buy a hat.

Off to sell the Harley...

Never mind, appears panama hats are made in Ecuador, so my Harley is safe.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2010, 03:56:04 pm by feppe »
Logged

Ray

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10365
MF and LF: Their time is a coming!
« Reply #25 on: July 26, 2010, 10:14:56 pm »

Quote from: eronald
Within 10 years or so, we'll have HUGE cheap sensors (say $2000) while glass prices are remaining stable.
At some point the current trend to expensive high-resolving glass on 35mm cameras will reverse, and it'll be cheaper again to make low-resolving lenses stuck on large sensors.

Edmund

Edmund,
I think you might have a fascination with old MF and LF lenses which may now be bought for a bargain because they are obsolete. Lenses one owns, as a total for a particular format, generally tend to be the most expensive component of any camera system.

A relatively affordable, very large sensor with a big pixel pitch, say 12 or 18 microns, could certainly be used with old, cheap lenses to produce (potentially) impressive results, perhaps on a par with a P65+ used with a modern Digitar.

However, the question that springs to mind is why would anyone want to saddle himself with such heavy, cumbersome and inflexible equipment?  Even though a DB may fit a number of different camera bodies, each with their own set of lenses, and can therefore be described as having a certain degree of flexibility, it seems to me that none of the camera bodies on which the DB may be attached at any one time is a flexible piece of equipment, compared with 35mm. The flexibility of the DB system resides in the existence of a truck load of equipment which you certainly wouldn't want to take with you on a flight to China, or any other place outside of the studio.

The other issue which contributes to the inflexibility of the very large sensor is its DoF limitations, which I'm surprised no-one's mentioned so far. If we go back to Michael's eye-opening comparison between the Canon G10 and the P45+ at A3+ print size, we see that the shallower DoF in the P45+ print gave the game away. The G10 was used at F3.5; the P45+ at F11. In order to equalize DoF, the P45+ should have been used at F22.

Comparing prints of equal DoF with the G10 at F3.5, the P65+ would need to be used at F24; a 6x7cm DB at F34, and a 4"x5" sensor at F60. It's true you don't need modern, sharp lenses at these F stops, but you're also unlikely to get impressively detailed and sharp results, so what's the point?

Another issue, which also relates to DoF, is the fact that system resolution is dependent upon both lens MFT and sensor pixel pitch. However poor the lens, one can always improve resolution using a sensor with a finer pixel pitch (more pixels) up to a point.

This fact is demonstrated at Photozone where they have tested the same model of lens with both the 8mp Canon 20D and the 15mp 50D. A lens which seems mediocre on the 20D suddenly appears quite impressive on the 50D.

My own tests have demonstrated that a 15mp 50D at F11 has about the same resolution at the plane of focus as a 10mp 40D at F8, using the same lens. However, the DoF of the 50D image is noticeably greater.

The only advantage of the ultra-large, big-pixel sensor you propose, outside of the opportunity to 'mop up' a truck load of obsolete, low resolution lenses, is the dynamic range potential which the larger sensor always has. However, a potential is just that, a 'potential'. Reality depends on a whole lot of other technological innovation. Witness the superior DR of the D3X compared with the P65+.
Logged

RobSaecker

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 300
    • robsaecker.com
MF and LF: Their time is a coming!
« Reply #26 on: July 27, 2010, 01:16:08 am »

According to Thom Hogan, Sony is about to stop producing full frame sensors because there's not enough profit to be made from them. If that rumor is true, it would seem to make the probability of larger cheaper sensors a good deal less likely.
Logged
Rob
photo blog - http://robsaecker.com

eronald

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6642
    • My gallery on Instagram
MF and LF: Their time is a coming!
« Reply #27 on: July 27, 2010, 03:57:58 am »

Quote from: RobSaecker
According to Thom Hogan, Sony is about to stop producing full frame sensors because there's not enough profit to be made from them. If that rumor is true, it would seem to make the probability of larger cheaper sensors a good deal less likely.


I don't think Sony need to bake the FF sensors to make FF cameras, which they certainly won't stop doing.

Sony are at present OEM suppliers of sensors to much of the compact sector, and a low volume item such as a fullframe sensor of which 20 000 or so get made but where each item is fairly valuable may not fit into their production philosophy.

As for really large sensors, I don't think we'll have them on consumer products within a year or two years, I think it's more like 10, when it'll be easy to run them off a random production line. And they won't be competitive in density with the other ones - I think they'll be based on some other process like the LCD process.

Edmund
Logged
If you appreciate my blog posts help me by following on https://instagram.com/edmundronald

BJL

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6600
MF and LF: Their time is a coming!
« Reply #28 on: July 27, 2010, 05:35:27 am »

Quote from: eronald
I don't think Sony need to bake the FF sensors to make FF cameras, which they certainly won't stop doing.
Where would Sony get the sensors once the current 24MP model is out-performed by future Canon and Nikon sensors? (That could be a year or two yet.) I doubt that Canon and Nikon will supply Sony with sensors.

Nikon has been striving towards independence from Sony for its high end sensors, so maybe Nikon has now told Sony that it will not buy future Sony 35mm format sensors, using its own designs instead for successors of the D3X. Sony's A900 and A850 sales do not seem to have been good enough to give an economic justification for Sony to design sensors only for its own 35mm format DSLRs.
Logged

fredjeang

  • Guest
MF and LF: Their time is a coming!
« Reply #29 on: July 27, 2010, 09:06:21 am »

Quote from: Ray
Witness the superior DR of the D3X compared with the P65+.

Have I missed something recently???

Ray you have a scoop, a dispaches that you could sell to the NYT !

A premiere.

An exclusive.

I might be living in a bubble.

I'm doing a call here right now: Please, Michael Reichmann, Guy Mancuso, Chris Barrett, and all of you unaware guys who have ruined yourself with that P65, there is a premiere today and you should feel completly happy and liberated to sell right now your Phase and join the Nikon DR paradise.
Above the D3x there is nothing else on the universe. It is the ultimate step to image quality. The ultimate gear for the ultimate photography master.
You, snob guys with your P45 65...come back to earth and get the best DR ever reached so far, and there is just one name, one brand, one system that will deliver the highest, the better, the whao and that name with no doubt is Nikon.
Oh N-I-K-O-N. How great you are to bring to our mortal insignificant bodies all your infinite wisdom in photographic gadgets, oups, sorry, in engineering peice of art.

After, more the sensors are big less the lens quality matters, the D3x now beats the P65 DR.

This forum is getting each time more exciting and knowledgable
« Last Edit: July 27, 2010, 09:28:27 am by fredjeang »
Logged

pcunite

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 205
MF and LF: Their time is a coming!
« Reply #30 on: July 27, 2010, 09:25:08 am »

Quote from: RobSaecker
According to Thom Hogan, Sony is about to stop producing full frame sensors because there's not enough profit to be made from them. If that rumor is true, it would seem to make the probability of larger cheaper sensors a good deal less likely.

It is not the sensor that is the real problem, it is the complete package. Sony does not offer LiveView for crying out loud. If absolute sensor tech was the goal then we would all own MFD, but many of us don't because we like the workflow from 35mm.
Logged

Ray

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10365
MF and LF: Their time is a coming!
« Reply #31 on: July 27, 2010, 10:04:55 am »

Quote from: fredjeang
Have I missed something recently???

Ray you have a scoop, a dispaches that you could sell to the NYT !

A premiere.

An exclusive.

I might be living in a bubble.

Now Fred! Don't get too excited!    I mention the  fact that the D3x has greater DR than the P65+ in this context merely to illustrate the point that a larger sensor does not always equate to a greater DR.

If Edmund's dream of an affordable 4"x5" sensor ever materializes within the next 10 years, it'll probably have a disappointing DR compared with smaller but higher-tech sensors.
Logged

eronald

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6642
    • My gallery on Instagram
MF and LF: Their time is a coming!
« Reply #32 on: July 27, 2010, 11:08:34 am »

Quote from: Ray
Now Fred! Don't get too excited!    I mention the  fact that the D3x has greater DR than the P65+ in this context merely to illustrate the point that a larger sensor does not always equate to a greater DR.

If Edmund's dream of an affordable 4"x5" sensor ever materializes within the next 10 years, it'll probably have a disappointing DR compared with smaller but higher-tech sensors.

I think we're going to have 13x18 cm sensors and larger, in due course. And nice wooden cameras for architecture and studio work

Edmund
Logged
If you appreciate my blog posts help me by following on https://instagram.com/edmundronald

Christoph C. Feldhaim

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2509
  • There is no rule! No - wait ...
MF and LF: Their time is a coming!
« Reply #33 on: July 27, 2010, 12:09:09 pm »

We will have foldable pocket cameras with 13x18" sensors which fit in a matchbox !

sojournerphoto

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 473
MF and LF: Their time is a coming!
« Reply #34 on: July 27, 2010, 12:10:31 pm »

Quote from: Ray
Edmund,
...

A relatively affordable, very large sensor with a big pixel pitch, say 12 or 18 microns, could certainly be used with old, cheap lenses to produce (potentially) impressive results, perhaps on a par with a P65+ used with a modern Digitar.

You can achieve that with an old 4 by 5 (or MF), an epson v750 and that old single use sensor called film

Mike
Logged

fredjeang

  • Guest
MF and LF: Their time is a coming!
« Reply #35 on: July 27, 2010, 02:58:10 pm »

well, it is true that some people are working on an open source camera and sensors.

I'm thinking of a GREAT apportation: Lu-La has many real scientific members.
Instead of fighting in the forum with endless technical topics and sending us those obscur graphics and equations that only you understand,

Why don't you join your forces and work on an open source 50MP digital camera back?

I'm talking seriously.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2010, 03:35:21 pm by fredjeang »
Logged

Ray

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10365
MF and LF: Their time is a coming!
« Reply #36 on: July 27, 2010, 11:23:31 pm »

Quote from: sojournerphoto
You can achieve that with an old 4 by 5 (or MF), an epson v750 and that old single use sensor called film

Mike

You probably can. But wouldn't that be going backwards? Haven't we progressed beyond the terribly time-consuming, messy, cumbersome and expensive processes of chemical film?

It may be an interesting exercise to compare a smaller format digital sensor with a larger film format, just to get a sense of how far we've progressed. But film technology is definitely on the way out. Many types of film are no longer available, and the development of 'dedicated film' scanner technology seems to have almost ceased.

Before I bought my first DSLR, the humble 6mp Canon D60, I used to scan MF negatives from my second-hand Mamiya RB67 and Fuji GW690III, using a Nikon 8000 ED. I was a bit obsessed with resolution you see.

For a short while after buying the D60 (which cost me as much as the Nikon 8000 ED scanner at the time), I continued shooting with the MF gear. But not for long. The sheer convenience of the digital format won the day, despite the clear resolution disadvantage of the D60 compared with scanned MF film.
Logged

yaya

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1254
    • http://yayapro.com
MF and LF: Their time is a coming!
« Reply #37 on: July 28, 2010, 04:12:35 am »

Quote from: fredjeang
well, it is true that some people are working on an open source camera and sensors.

I'm thinking of a GREAT apportation: Lu-La has many real scientific members.
Instead of fighting in the forum with endless technical topics and sending us those obscur graphics and equations that only you understand,

Why don't you join your forces and work on an open source 50MP digital camera back?

I'm talking seriously.


See more here
Logged
Yair Shahar | Product Manager | Phase One - Cultural Heritage
e: ysh@phaseone.com |

sojournerphoto

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 473
MF and LF: Their time is a coming!
« Reply #38 on: July 28, 2010, 07:05:20 am »

Quote from: Ray
You probably can. But wouldn't that be going backwards? Haven't we progressed beyond the terribly time-consuming, messy, cumbersome and expensive processes of chemical film?

It may be an interesting exercise to compare a smaller format digital sensor with a larger film format, just to get a sense of how far we've progressed. But film technology is definitely on the way out. Many types of film are no longer available, and the development of 'dedicated film' scanner technology seems to have almost ceased.

Before I bought my first DSLR, the humble 6mp Canon D60, I used to scan MF negatives from my second-hand Mamiya RB67 and Fuji GW690III, using a Nikon 8000 ED. I was a bit obsessed with resolution you see.

For a short while after buying the D60 (which cost me as much as the Nikon 8000 ED scanner at the time), I continued shooting with the MF gear. But not for long. The sheer convenience of the digital format won the day, despite the clear resolution disadvantage of the D60 compared with scanned MF film.


I think you're likely right that film tech is on the way out in the medium to longer term, though it continues as a significant niche for stills photographers and more mainstream in cinema. However, there are reasons that film makes sense for some people - where convenience is not more important than resolution for example:)

As for cost, well MF or LF is cheaper than equivalent digital if you only shoot low volume and don't have tight deadlines. On the other hand time is important to many of us in any case. I still shoot some 35mm film, but that's as much because I don't have an M9 and like rf's as because it's film - sooner or later the time cost will lead to me buying an M9 or hopefully forthcoming equivalent. I shoot a lower volume of MF monochrome because I like it and that is unlikely to change in the forseeable future.

I agree that an obsession with resolution is about as healthy as an obsession with noise, MTFs, 'image quality' and probably doesn't contribute much to the pictures. Having said that, I think sometimes people need to justify why they like a particular approach and so look for objective reasons that actually have little to do with the reality.

Do you still shoot with the D60? I still have prints from a panasonic FZ20 that I like and some are hanging on other people's walls too.

Mike
Logged

Ray

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10365
MF and LF: Their time is a coming!
« Reply #39 on: July 28, 2010, 10:01:20 am »

Quote from: sojournerphoto
Do you still shoot with the D60? I still have prints from a panasonic FZ20 that I like and some are hanging on other people's walls too.

Mike

I also still have prints from the D60 hanging on my wall, and some that are probably still hanging on other people's walls. However, after upgrading to the 20D I had no reason to use the D60 again, apart from shooting a few shots for purposes of comparison, to determine if the D60 had any advantage in any respect at all, compared with the 20D. The resolution increase of the 20D from 6mp to 8mp was of little consequence, but I remember being amazed that a 20D image at ISO 1600 was actually better quality, better color saturation and at least as detailed, as a D60 shot of the same scene at ISO 400. That significantly better high-ISO performance of the 20D was the main attraction for me. I found the camera to be a much more flexible tool than the D60. I could suddenly use my 100-400 IS zoom in circumstances where I just wouldn't bother with the D60.

I place a high premium on the usefulness and flexibility of my camera systems, which is why I'm not particularly enthusiastic about large format digital. If some manufacturer were to produce a very affordable 40mp, 6cm x 7cm sensor that fitted my RB67, I probably wouldn't be terribly excited because I can't see myself lugging around all that heavy equipment. However, if I were to do most of my photography in a studio, that would be a different matter.
Logged
Pages: 1 [2] 3   Go Up