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Author Topic: MF and LF: Their time is a coming!  (Read 13589 times)

eronald

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MF and LF: Their time is a coming!
« on: July 25, 2010, 07:35:09 am »

Within 10 years or so, we'll have HUGE cheap sensors (say $2000) while glass prices are remaining stable.
At some point the current trend to expensive high-resolving glass on 35mm cameras will reverse, and it'll be cheaper again to make low-resolving lenses stuck on large sensors.

Edmund
« Last Edit: July 25, 2010, 07:36:14 am by eronald »
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Mr. Rib

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MF and LF: Their time is a coming!
« Reply #1 on: July 25, 2010, 09:56:57 am »

I don't know if MFDB market is expanding or shrinking (probably dealers will say that it's expanding while shooters will say that it's shriking), either way the tendency is too insignificant to change current MFDB state- and this wont allow MFDB prices to drop dramatically. Oh and yeah, I hope I'm wrong
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eronald

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MF and LF: Their time is a coming!
« Reply #2 on: July 25, 2010, 10:10:53 am »

Quote from: Mr. Rib
I don't know if MFDB market is expanding or shrinking (probably dealers will say that it's expanding while shooters will say that it's shriking), either way the tendency is too insignificant to change current MFDB state- and this wont allow MFDB prices to drop dramatically. Oh and yeah, I hope I'm wrong

MF market share is fairly static, but the component that is sensor price for area is sinking. At some point it will be more cost-effective to slap a cheap lens on a large sensor than an expensive lens on a small sensor. Especially since one can make a camera for landscape use with no shutter and just a focus helicoid, liveview does the rest. In a way, the Alpa and Arca are timeless.

Edmund
« Last Edit: July 25, 2010, 10:11:31 am by eronald »
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pcunite

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MF and LF: Their time is a coming!
« Reply #3 on: July 25, 2010, 10:36:18 am »

Quote from: eronald
At some point it will be more cost-effective to slap a cheap lens on a large sensor than an expensive lens on a small sensor.

That is a point often not understood, the larger the sensor the less high end optics needed. Of course Lecia can always make a work of art for some that want it. I am waiting for MFD to come down in price or go out of business... either way I am not hurting for it.
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Harold Clark

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MF and LF: Their time is a coming!
« Reply #4 on: July 25, 2010, 01:56:32 pm »

Quote from: eronald
Within 10 years or so, we'll have HUGE cheap sensors (say $2000) while glass prices are remaining stable.
At some point the current trend to expensive high-resolving glass on 35mm cameras will reverse, and it'll be cheaper again to make low-resolving lenses stuck on large sensors.

Edmund

You could very well be correct. Technology is always advancing and becoming cheaper, sometimes a major breakthrough can change the picture drastically. Hopefully a 4x5 sensor will eventually be viable, a lot of view cameras will get dusted off if that happens. LF lenses, even brand new, are a lot cheaper on average than the new digital wonders.
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fredjeang

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MF and LF: Their time is a coming!
« Reply #5 on: July 25, 2010, 02:08:54 pm »

If I understand you, we will be able to do digital LF photography soon very cheap?

mmm...it sounds that something's wrong somewhere.
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Christoph C. Feldhaim

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MF and LF: Their time is a coming!
« Reply #6 on: July 25, 2010, 02:09:05 pm »

So - you want to say the Leica M system is going to be 10 times as cheap and 10 times as big in the future ?

ced

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MF and LF: Their time is a coming!
« Reply #7 on: July 25, 2010, 03:29:06 pm »

Hear! Hear!  Edmund the Prophet.
Now they cost about a million bucks a piece when perfect...
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cyberean

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MF and LF: Their time is a coming!
« Reply #8 on: July 25, 2010, 04:29:26 pm »


within 3 years or so there will be many more posts
predicting what will be in 10 years or so ...


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deejjjaaaa

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MF and LF: Their time is a coming!
« Reply #9 on: July 25, 2010, 10:23:59 pm »

Quote from: ced
Now they cost about a million bucks a piece when perfect...

MF sensors are stiched... so does it cost $1m to stich 8 times more pieces to get 4x5 ? as you do not need to have the same density of pixels as pieces for 60mp+ MF sensors require it should cost a lot less...
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yaya

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MF and LF: Their time is a coming!
« Reply #10 on: July 26, 2010, 02:39:40 am »

Quote from: deja
MF sensors are stiched...

Really?
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eronald

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« Reply #11 on: July 26, 2010, 03:14:50 am »

Quote from: yaya
Really?

If we need big sensors with a fairly low pixel pitch maybe they'll get made like LCDs?

Edmund
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shutay

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« Reply #12 on: July 26, 2010, 03:26:13 am »

Quote from: eronald
If we need big sensors with a fairly low pixel pitch maybe they'll get made like LCDs?

Edmund

I was told of an effort by an unnamed group to try to apply TFT display manufacturing technology/techniques to building very large format photographic imaging sensors, e.g., even 8x10; 4x5 and 6x7 would have been easy. However, to this date, I have only seen this manufacturing technique being applied to X-Ray machine digital sensors, if I am not mistaken.

See for example, this PDF.

Based on my own-not-so-technical understanding of this PDF, it means that really, a 6x7 full frame TFT-based area imaging sensor for the Mamiya RZ67 should be possible using this method. Would it be cheaper than a CCD? I have no idea...

Jason
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rueyloon

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« Reply #13 on: July 26, 2010, 03:26:42 am »

how about this

$25,000 for a HAT !

http://www.brentblack.com/pages/best_02.html

is it because the hat of worth 25k ? or is there because there are people who WANT to spend
25k hence they have to create a hat for those people ?

replace hat with photography and discuss
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fredjeang

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MF and LF: Their time is a coming!
« Reply #14 on: July 26, 2010, 03:46:50 am »

Quote from: rueyloon
how about this

$25,000 for a HAT !

http://www.brentblack.com/pages/best_02.html

is it because the hat of worth 25k ? or is there because there are people who WANT to spend
25k hence they have to create a hat for those people ?

replace hat with photography and discuss
Perfectly correct IMO.
But that's the way things are for ages. Even a cheap Canon 5D sold 2000euros body.
If they sell the body for 2000euros in shops, how much do you thing the camera cost really out of factory? I make my bet that arround 400euros if not less.
Don't think that Canon is giving his customer a gift bargain. if they do it it is because this camera costs them almost nothing.

Even if they find a cheap system for big sensors, their margen only will increase. Why will they do that at a low price when people is ready to pay the price they fix?
« Last Edit: July 26, 2010, 03:47:45 am by fredjeang »
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Lightbox

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MF and LF: Their time is a coming!
« Reply #15 on: July 26, 2010, 04:06:14 am »

and then instead of having computers in our house, we will live inside the computers that deal with these image files... don't sign me up anytime soon.
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ondebanks

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MF and LF: Their time is a coming!
« Reply #16 on: July 26, 2010, 06:29:43 am »

Quote from: eronald
Within 10 years or so, we'll have HUGE cheap sensors (say $2000) <snip>
Edmund

I wish it were true, but I doubt it. In digital electronics, expensive becomes cheap only when two factors converge: Moore's Law AND a mass marketplace. If demand develops for massive sensors in some other, large volume selling sector, then there is a chance that we MFD photographers will benefit from piggybacking on that development. What that sector would be, who knows? Medicine, military, TV & cinema production, scientific imaging...probably none of these is really large enough to be sufficiently "mass market" on its own, even if they would want huge sensors. And the other problem is that Moore's Law doesn't really work the way we would want it: it's primarily not about making physically larger devices, but rather about making devices which are smaller, cheaper, more potent per unit area or volume (or a mix of these properties). The trend for giant LCD/LED TVs is one of the few examples which runs counter to this.

An area which I am involved in, astronomical CCD imaging, is a good comparison and analogy for MFD. High-end, well-off amateurs started using very tiny cooled CCDs around 1990. They had maybe 128x128 pixels (don't laugh!), were 2x2 mm or so in area, and were ferociously expensive. In the 20 years since, astro sensors have got bigger and better thanks to Moore, but the real step-changes in price-performance occured whenever the astro-cam manufacturers got a new sensor from Kodak or Sony which was already being produced in huge volumes for consumer cameras. So now, for example, you have the thermoelectrically cooled, 25mm x 18mm, full-spectrum sensitive Orion StarShoot Pro Deep Space Color CCD Camera for only $1200:
http://www.telescope.com/control/astrophot...olor-ccd-camera
Why such great value for a niche product? Because it is built around a mass-produced Sony DSLR chip, that's why. And so it is with MFD: like astro-imaging, we need another sector/market/industry trend to be the white knight riding to our rescue, creating that mass demand for huge sensors, lowering the unit price of the core component of our special niche imaging devices. If we want to engage in crystal ball gazing, that's what our focus should be on.
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JerryReed

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MF and LF: Their time is a coming!
« Reply #17 on: July 26, 2010, 06:36:21 am »

How large are the sensors used in spy satellites?

Jerry
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tho_mas

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MF and LF: Their time is a coming!
« Reply #18 on: July 26, 2010, 07:39:47 am »

35 million dollars is not exactly cheap ...
http://www.wired.com/magazine/2009/12/st_darkenergy_camera/
 
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BJL

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MF and LF: Their time is a coming!
« Reply #19 on: July 26, 2010, 08:02:19 am »

Quote from: eronald
Within 10 years or so, we'll have HUGE cheap sensors (say $2000) while glass prices are remaining stable.
You have made this sort of prediction many times before, so starting a new thread now suggests that you have new information. Please share it with us.

All I know is that every new stepper and scanner since late 2001 has had maximum field size of 26x33mm or less, and the only larger format option, the 50x50mm Canon FPA-5500iX is limited to 0.5 micron minimum feature size, so the stitching cost factor is still with us except for photosites larger than any recent MF sensors. And for LF with any pixel size.

Reference:
http://www.usa.canon.com/cusa/semiconducto..._5500ix_stepper
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