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Author Topic: Hasselblad V Focusing on Digital Back  (Read 15004 times)

EinstStein

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Hasselblad V Focusing on Digital Back
« on: July 24, 2010, 11:44:39 pm »

After reading a lot discussions on the digital back's shimming problems and the high precision requirement on the focusing, I start wondering whether a Hasselblad V can ever match any auto focus camera about this quality. And yes, I'm talking about the users with reasonable eye sights.

This is going to affect my decision about which platform to go with the digital back. I have a Contax 645 system and a Hasselblad V system. About the same correspondent lenses, but the Hasselblad included a 500Cm and a flexbody. At first I was comparing the convenience of AF vs. MF, and rotating back vs. rotating camera (for vertical format), and more electronics vs. full mechanics, and reliability,  maintainance. But now it seems the focusing accuracy, hence the direct result of the image quality, might dominate all issues.

Am I over reading the focusing discussion? Is my concern reasonable?  
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michele

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Hasselblad V Focusing on Digital Back
« Reply #1 on: July 25, 2010, 03:44:00 am »

I think your problem is a real problem. Perhaps with a 22 megapixels back you wont see big focus issues. But with 30-39-60 mega yes.
Take the time to read the article from Joseph Holmes: http://www.josephholmes.com/news-sharpmediumformat.html
It can help you.
For what is worth, i have the phase/mamiya and with the short lenses, if i want big depth of field, i focus near infinity and close down to f/16 ( i have the p45 back)
With the 80mm, the 120mm and the 210mm i can't live without Af confirm... But if i can, i always shot thethered and check the focus on laptop screen.
My best

Anders_HK

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Hasselblad V Focusing on Digital Back
« Reply #2 on: July 25, 2010, 04:23:22 am »

Actually, I have the Mamiya AFD3 but am interested in Hassy V. Why? I am yet to test one, but it will make you see a larger view for focus using its 6x6 viewer than the pipe on my AFD3. Also I am told there are screws to adjust the groundglass even yourself on the Hassy. A split focus screen should help and enable manual focus traditional way. However due to digital tolerances one need to be more careful focusing than with film, which is true of any camera with digital back.

My Mamiya AFD3 is stranded at Mamiya in Japan since 3+ weeks with no word on when it will be back from focus adjust of AF and MF.

At current I have Aptus 65 but might upgrade. The Hassy V camera is also lighter weight to hold.

One thing that Hassy in Hong Kong advised was that the fabrication tolerances on the Hassy V are 0.01mm. I will be surprised if Mamiya have same, yet I do not know.

Regards
Anders
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Terence h

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Hasselblad V Focusing on Digital Back
« Reply #3 on: July 25, 2010, 04:54:52 am »

Quote from: EinstStein
After reading a lot discussions on the digital back's shimming problems and the high precision requirement on the focusing, I start wondering whether a Hasselblad V can ever match any auto focus camera about this quality. And yes, I'm talking about the users with reasonable eye sights.

This is going to affect my decision about which platform to go with the digital back. I have a Contax 645 system and a Hasselblad V system. About the same correspondent lenses, but the Hasselblad included a 500Cm and a flexbody. At first I was comparing the convenience of AF vs. MF, and rotating back vs. rotating camera (for vertical format), and more electronics vs. full mechanics, and reliability,  maintainance. But now it seems the focusing accuracy, hence the direct result of the image quality, might dominate all issues.

Am I over reading the focusing discussion? Is my concern reasonable?

I have had real problems getting focus with my Aptus 75 and my Hasselblad 500CM (V mount) so much so that i do not shoot people
with the camera at all now , the moment i cannot be tethered and be able to double check my focus i haul out the 5D MK11 , nobody
even notices the file size difference (or cares)

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Terence Hogben. Durban. South Africa. ht

Rob C

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Hasselblad V Focusing on Digital Back
« Reply #4 on: July 25, 2010, 06:03:05 am »

Quote from: Terence h
I have had real problems getting focus with my Aptus 75 and my Hasselblad 500CM (V mount) so much so that i do not shoot people
with the camera at all now , the moment i cannot be tethered and be able to double check my focus i haul out the 5D MK11 , nobody
even notices the file size difference (or cares)



Terence

You show again that you guys in SA are blesed with some wonderful models. Just like Haskins before you, you manage to find girls with wonderfully natural beauty and charm. No, don't tell me they are imported from Europe or the Staes - please let me believe my belief in the home-grown.

;-)

Nice shots!

Rob C

Geoffrey

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Hasselblad V Focusing on Digital Back
« Reply #5 on: July 25, 2010, 07:22:17 am »

Several issues here:

- are you able to focus the image? that is, can you see clearly enough, and with enough precision so that you have identified the proper focus point. Easier with telephotos, harder with wide angle. Split prism (IMHO) is the better way to go here.

- once you have it in focus (to your eyes) is it truly in focus for the back? Thus, adjustment of the screen, and the famous Holmes issues with the back on the camera.

- is focus (achieved) going to render correctly - or is there focus shift from the lenses? Can be an issue, but not familiar with the Hassy lenses.

- do you have enough DOF to give some tolerance for the above? One of the things MFDB require is more light so that you can shut down for DOF, higher shutter speed for less camera shake, and lower ISO compared to Canikon.

The results, when you get them just right, are fantastic. Make sure you try your setup well before commiting. There are many pieces to the puzzle to be worked out. For me, focus was the first issue, and was solved with a chimney viewer so as to see the split prism more clearly. That solved that issue, although it certainly didn't fold closed. Camera shake (shutter) was the next serious issue. Later cameras have focus confirmation or AF, making this all a bit easier.
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Gary Yeowell

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Hasselblad V Focusing on Digital Back
« Reply #6 on: July 25, 2010, 07:54:43 am »

I use a Contax 645 system with film and have used it with digital and i would never use autofocus.... it's useless, but for manual focus it's perfect, i shoot often wide open with great results. I also have a Hasselblad 503CW with an Acute Matte split image microprism screen which i use with a CFV 16MP back and i get perfect results again wide open, the same Hasselblad was used a short time ago with the CFV39 which i tested, and again perfect results wide open. In fairness i'm shooting fairly static subjects and if i was not i would use a Nikon/Canon which have far better autofocus systems.

Gary.
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ced

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Hasselblad V Focusing on Digital Back
« Reply #7 on: July 25, 2010, 08:31:59 am »

Quote from: Rob C
Terence

You show again that you guys in SA are blesed with some wonderful models. Just like Haskins before you, you manage to find girls with wonderfully natural beauty and charm. No, don't tell me they are imported from Europe or the Staes - please let me believe my belief in the home-grown.

;-)

Nice shots!

Rob C

Many years of good stock originating from some good european stock and a bit of the local blood has led to this current type if that is what you mean to be seeing.
No need to import anything this can all be found locally...
Hope this doesn't offend anyone  
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Rob C

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Hasselblad V Focusing on Digital Back
« Reply #8 on: July 25, 2010, 05:13:59 pm »

Quote from: ced
Many years of good stock originating from some good european stock and a bit of the local blood has led to this current type if that is what you mean to be seeing.
No need to import anything this can all be found locally...
Hope this doesn't offend anyone



No reason it should offend - it also makes sense.

I remember from my own experience in India that there were some really beautiful Anglo-Indian girls around. I'm certainly no expert on the place, but Bollywood also has some very attractive people of both sexes. I think some of the attraction stems from the way that skin can just shine with a sort of almost inner glow. Seldom saw much of that around the Clyde, but I guess it's changing.

The same effect can be seen here in Spain: lovely skin that takes on a glossy summer tan even before they go out and hit that sun. Southern Italians have that bonus too. Many of us just go red - like beautiful lobsters, yet hardly good enough to eat!

Rob C

Chris Livsey

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Hasselblad V Focusing on Digital Back
« Reply #9 on: July 25, 2010, 05:48:42 pm »

Quote from: EinstStein
After reading a lot discussions on the digital back's shimming problems and the high precision requirement on the focusing, I start wondering whether a Hasselblad V can ever match any auto focus camera about this quality. And yes, I'm talking about the users with reasonable eye sights.
Am I over reading the focusing discussion? Is my concern reasonable?

My experience is that the Acutte matte or equivalent screen with a split image is a must. Run checks that all is well before using in anger, have the camera serviced, by Hasselblad, first BTW. Then you will be stunned by the images IF you shoot on a tripod with all usual best practice. If not and you are hand holding shoot fast, over 125th absolute minimum, yes that is a problem with the speed of the backs and the speed of the lenses if you want any DOF but unless you do the mirror slap or your shake will kill the quality. I would trust myself with split screen to put the focus where I want it over an autofocus, when I use them they seem to have a mind of their own, no doubt it is my technique at fault.
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amsp

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Hasselblad V Focusing on Digital Back
« Reply #10 on: July 25, 2010, 06:44:08 pm »

Mert & Marcus seem to do well with their V-series...  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=smlqPyGTxfc

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EinstStein

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Hasselblad V Focusing on Digital Back
« Reply #11 on: July 25, 2010, 11:08:59 pm »

I believe you have a very good focusing sense. Have you compared your focusing with Contax AF?

This is what I did: I set the focus mode to manual focus, then do the manual focusing on the target (very close, medium distance, infinite), then push the M button. Usually I can hear 0 to 3 steps movement of the focusing motor, average to be around 2. That's my manual focusing error. ...yes, I'm counting when I'm wrong.
It seems I can do better with Hasselblad V, maybe Hasselblad V's focusing ring has finer turn, but I don't think I can do better than any auto focus.

I'm a fan of Leica and Zeiss. I tried very hard to use Leica R and Zeiss lenses on Kodak SLR/c, but the results were not favorable after compared with the native AF lenses. I've read a lot of lens evaluation on Zeiss vs. Canon L, some are from photodo or photozone. Very often those evaluations concluded that Zeiss lenses are no better or inferior to Canon L.  I guess those evaluations either don't know what they are doing or don't know that they have poor focusing skill when using those manual focus lenses. Nevertheless, it's a good confirmation of the importance of focusing, particularly the importance of (good) auto focusing.

I hope someone using Leica M9 could confirm this observation. .... is it possible that Leica M9 would never catch up if it stays in the manual focusing mode, no matter how much better its optics (in the native sense)?    


E.S

Quote from: Gary Yeowell
I use a Contax 645 system with film and have used it with digital and i would never use autofocus.... it's useless, but for manual focus it's perfect, i shoot often wide open with great results. I also have a Hasselblad 503CW with an Acute Matte split image microprism screen which i use with a CFV 16MP back and i get perfect results again wide open, the same Hasselblad was used a short time ago with the CFV39 which i tested, and again perfect results wide open. In fairness i'm shooting fairly static subjects and if i was not i would use a Nikon/Canon which have far better autofocus systems.

Gary.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2010, 11:10:06 pm by EinstStein »
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ondebanks

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Hasselblad V Focusing on Digital Back
« Reply #12 on: July 26, 2010, 08:04:00 am »

I have a Mamiya AFD and a back with 9-micron pixels. I have not noticed issues with AF accuracy with the 55-110mm zoom, but those shots tend to be handheld so I'm not expecting perfection.

Manual focus on the screen is definitely off, so I'll need to shim the screen a little bit. But manual focus using the focus confirm system is accurate, and to be honest, because of this I haven't really been too bothered about the focusing screen's obvious inaccuracy. The sprung clip system for holding the focusing screen is a definite weak point, with too much potential for wiggle. Older Mamiya 645s (like my 1000s) with their "top loaded" screens were far more rigid, and adjustable to boot; the Hassy V sounds similar. Maybe the Contax and Hassy H are also better in this regard; I have no experience with them.

So when I manual focus, I either use the focus confirm system (for speed) or I use 100% zoom on the back, especially if I'm using a tripod and can repeat the shot.

When I set up for astrophotography, I start with the lens as far over as it will go (at or past infinity) and move the focus back in 6 or 7 very small increments (it helps to stick on a finer tickmark scale beside the focus scale), inspecting the shot at 100% each time. A bright star at 1/6 second exposure, lens wide open, mirror locked up, self-timer on, does nicely. With a lens like the 200/2.8 APO wide open, this process allows me to mentally construct a simple "focus curve", as the star comes into maximum sharpness and then out of it again.  After about 2 minutes of this testing, I set it to the position that gave the best focus and I'm good to go for hours of imaging - weather permitting!  I would generally re-test focus later if there has been a substantial change in the temperature since I started.

I think that this "mental focus curve" method should work just as well for discerning landscape work etc. It's one great advantage that these backs confer over film.
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vduault

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Re: Hasselblad V Focusing on Digital Back
« Reply #13 on: August 17, 2010, 10:04:33 am »

It depends if your V-body is an old one or not, the back of the mirror is geared with a kind of foam and on quite old bodies this foam can break up with time and the result is a slightly moving mirror who kill your focus, I revised my 500C/M and focusing works perfectly with a P45 (but I confirm acute mate is essential !), forget shooting hand-held in available light, a digital back is much heavier than a A12 film back so in digital and the complete camera doesn't balance very well with default handling (left hand under the body and the right hand for focusing).
for studio work with flash it is a breeze you can shoot hand held with flash

Concerning the lenses forget the old wide angles they are not good enough for the P45, perhaps the P20 but I don't think...
Optically the main difference between last lenses introduced in 2001 and the older C-T*lenses is the coating which has been consolidated on the back side of the lenses because a sensor plate is much more reflective than a regular film. Concretely with an old C-T*lens you have a bit less saturated and contrasted picture but you can correct it in Capture One in one finger slam, the files given by last phase one backs are very "solid/steady" you can correct them much more than DSLR ones...

people seems to say much good about the 503CW with the winder for digital hand held shooting...

Personnaly I prefer the 6x6 viewfinder I find it much more comfortable to use, ok, focusing is manual but it works very well :D

I kept the hasselblad V for digital because the camera remain very clear and rustic. If something doesn't work you can immediately evaluate where the jam is because all the electronic part is contained in the back, the body and the lens remain mechanical and hasselblad still does the maintenance (this point was a killer for me!) while with the Contax plateform the maintenance service became more and more complicated.
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EricWHiss

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Re: Hasselblad V Focusing on Digital Back
« Reply #14 on: August 17, 2010, 02:27:41 pm »

Yes getting accurate focus is a big deal! 

1st step is getting a good focus screen and camera focus calibrated and 2nd step is getting a finder that you like.  I find that the chimney style magnifying finders are the easiest to use for focusing.  I know that Hasselblad made a 4x magnifying finder which might be of help.   
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vandevanterSH

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Re: Hasselblad V Focusing on Digital Back
« Reply #15 on: August 17, 2010, 07:53:35 pm »

I know that Hasselblad made a 4x magnifying finder
******
The DPS 4 x 4 viewfinder is IIRC, 5.5 x magnification.  As the name implies, is has a field of view of 4 x 4 rather than 6 x 6.  It works well with crop sensor backs such as the CFV.  They show up occasionally in e-bay.

Steve
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alastairbird

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Re: Hasselblad V Focusing on Digital Back
« Reply #16 on: August 18, 2010, 01:14:25 am »

I have shot with the V96C as well as the CF-39 on a 500C/M and a 503CW. I have had no end of focusing issues to the point where I have moved to the H1. I did all the regular things - got the screen from Maxwell, which made a big difference; had the camera mirror checked to make sure it wasn't out of alignment; and practiced, practiced, practiced. I have youngish (36) eyes; I can focus a Hasselblad 203 with the 110 F2 wide open on film most of the time so my eyes and technique aren't too bad...

...but trying to shoot people in any sort of non-static situation was very difficult. I could not guarantee that I would be able to hit focus reliably, and of course the frame the client loves is the one that is soft. 
 
On a tripod, with time to carefully focus, there were few problems - except that my 40mm lens was always a guess.  Longer lenses are much easier. However, when I needed to be able to move with the camera and shoot in any sort of a dynamic situation I found I could not focus well enough to be able to trust myself with the camera.
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Alex MacPherson

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Re: Hasselblad V Focusing on Digital Back
« Reply #17 on: August 18, 2010, 02:22:09 am »

I find the people focus thing interesting. Some of the biggest names in fashion
shoot exclusively on the Hasselblad V and digital

Greg Kadel- 503CW
Ben Hassett- 555ELD
Mert & Marcus  555ELD (mostly handheld too)
Solve Sundsbo 555ELD
Sara Silver 503CW

I have seen them all doing shoots on YouTube doing shoots with these cameras (and more than once).
Is that a testament to their skill ... or is something else?
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Alex MacPherson

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Gigi

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Re: Hasselblad V Focusing on Digital Back
« Reply #18 on: August 18, 2010, 07:17:37 am »

Is this issue any different with the newer Hassy V digital bundles, with the back included? Perhaps Hassy took care of calibration at the factory, and the newer bodies have a bit better damping? Anyone got any experience with these?
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SeanFS

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Re: Hasselblad V Focusing on Digital Back
« Reply #19 on: August 20, 2010, 12:47:23 am »

I have been shooting with an Hassleblad ELX  and Imacon 22mp for five years now. It works very well. The Imacon can be shimmed easily to get accurate results and with a bit of care it isn't hard to do . I had another cx body for a while and it needed different shims, but also worked very well , the separate storage /battery unit takes a some of the weight away from the camera so it balances about the same as a film back. I would like an ELD and its a shame Hasselblad discontinued them but the ELX works well enough and I have never had trouble with the connecting cable. 125th/sec and under is no good for shooting unless the mirror is locked up.
When I moved to 39mp I got an H3D s and adaptor , but I still use the same lenses with great results,. The Imacon still gets a lot of use as 39 mp is actually too big for many applications, but the electronic confirmation of the H series is really good and works with all the older lenses.
Image quality has got better with both cameras with each new release of Phocus of Flex colour and I really have few complaints.
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