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Author Topic: The S2 is "better" than the D3X  (Read 13076 times)

BernardLanguillier

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The S2 is "better" than the D3X
« Reply #40 on: July 17, 2010, 06:25:32 pm »

Quote from: eronald
The D3x is now obsolete technology, it's pretty clear that Sony will have the A900 successor at Photokina, and some time later Nikon will get the new sensor to compete with the 1DsIV. If the S2 has issues now competing with the D3x, then it will have trouble when matched against the much cheaper Sony and its built-in stabiliser and Zeiss lenses.

Not to mention the Pentax 645D that is available today (I could actually have one in my hands in less than 30 mins here in Tokyo) and is at least equal to the S2 specwise at basically the same price as the D3x.

I believe that the successor of the 645D is already being worked on and my guess is that it is going to become available faster than the S3. I believe that Kodak will spend more time with Pentax than with Leica considering that Pentax will probably sell them 5 times more sensors...

Cheers,
Bernard

uaiomex

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The S2 is "better" than the D3X
« Reply #41 on: July 17, 2010, 07:45:04 pm »

Mamiya just anounced new prices for their digital MF cameras. As low as $9995.
http://www.mamiya.com/en/AboutMamiya/News/...s-Releases.aspx
Eduardo


Quote from: BernardLanguillier
Not to mention the Pentax 645D that is available today (I could actually have one in my hands in less than 30 mins here in Tokyo) and is at least equal to the S2 specwise at basically the same price as the D3x.

I believe that the successor of the 645D is already being worked on and my guess is that it is going to become available faster than the S3. I believe that Kodak will spend more time with Pentax than with Leica considering that Pentax will probably sell them 5 times more sensors...

Cheers,
Bernard
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douglasf13

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The S2 is "better" than the D3X
« Reply #42 on: July 17, 2010, 07:51:27 pm »

Quote from: aaron
The only thing I can take from all these Leica S2 discussions is that the Nikon D3X is a bloody bargain  

Nikon couldn't pay fo this kind of marketing.

Not only that, it makes the A850 seem like the deal of the century.
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AldoMurillo

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The S2 is "better" than the D3X
« Reply #43 on: July 17, 2010, 09:31:27 pm »

Quote from: KLaban
Either of the cameras compared here - and most of those that aren't - are capable of making damn fine images.

We all know that, I hope.  And I know the camera is just a part of the equation.  But we can't change cameras every photo shoot as models, location, lighting etc... so we have to talk, discuss and choose carefully.  I know my limitations ands skills as a photographer and I really wouldn't like to have piece of equipment in front of my eye slowing me down or making me think a lot on equipment instead of the image I'm trying to produce...  so I think in gear here in the "Equipment & Techniques" forum so I don't have to think anymore on the field   ... ( I have other sources for the creative process   )

If I had the money I would choose the S2 over the D3x, if I don't have "all" the money I choose the Pentax 645D!!!   To me is even more interesting the Pentax 645D vs D3x...  it's an easier choice (for my need's) I would choose the pentax 645D any day.


Quote from: douglasf13
Not only that, it makes the A850 seem like the deal of the century.

I now!!  You could have 1 Pentax 645D, 1 Pentax 645D as backup and a Sony a850 + lenses for all the fast, low light work, for less than a Leica S2 body!  

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Aldo Murillo

jduncan

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The S2 is "better" than the D3X
« Reply #44 on: July 17, 2010, 10:29:33 pm »

Quote from: uaiomex
Mamiya just anounced new prices for their digital MF cameras. As low as $9995.
http://www.mamiya.com/en/AboutMamiya/News/...s-Releases.aspx
Eduardo
looks that they are using the Dalsa sensors, not Kodak's.
The system looks very complete. If all that AF lenses are currently shipping , I will say as complete as the Hasselblad system.
The prices look good too.
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ErikKaffehr

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The S2 is "better" than the D3X
« Reply #45 on: July 17, 2010, 11:53:01 pm »

Guillermo,

Lloyd Chambers has two raw files for download on his DAP site. DAP is a pay site but the content is very good. Lloyd terms for download are a bit restrictive.

I'm going a write a small article on what I found this week.

Best regards
Erik


Quote from: Guillermo Luijk
Hi Erik, I would be interested in checking these artifacts. Which are the RAW file you found moiré artifacts? and which RAW developer did you use to develop the RAW files?

Regards
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ErikKaffehr

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The S2 is "better" than the D3X
« Reply #46 on: July 18, 2010, 01:11:24 am »

Hi,

The Pentax has a different price tag. Pentax would probably not try to sell an MF DSLR for 25 kUSD and would they do that they would fail. It has taken Pentax some time to come out with the 645D, we don't know why the wait was so long. What Leica has going for the S2 is that it is designed for digital from the ground up and that Leica designed lenses that seem to be truly excellent for it. My guess that we need to look at the Pentax on it's own merits.
There is probably a lot of lenses around waiting for a digital Pentax 645 body, so I guess that there will be a good initial market for the Pentax 645D. Will it redefine the MF digital marketplace? Who knows, the Mamiya ZD did not.

Regarding your comment on S2 having a 70/30 chance of becoming 'DMR, The sequel' you are of course right, the question is really the percentage. I hope it's less that 70% and I presume that Leica did a good market research before betting the company on the S2.

Best regards
Erik



Quote from: Conner999
I love Leica glass as much as the next obsessive gearhead (God knows my wallet has suffered accordingly over the years), but I wonder how the discussion around the S2 would change if it weren't a Leica product.  

What if say, Pentax, had, instead of the 645D, released the S2 as it's MF entry vehicle? Same glass designs, same construction, same everything, just no red dot or Leica mystique... For some reason images of a (verbal) "WTF were they thinking..?" crucifixion keep coming to mind ;>

As much as I wish them well and could debate the pros & cons and value propositions all day, the bottom line is I think the system was: a great concept that was pegged at 'old MF market' prices and released about 3-4 years too late.  Regardless of why it was dropped on us when it was, it was released when not only the global economy but the economies of the MF hardware market were changing dramatically as the once-rarefied sector suddenly adopted a DSLResque depreciation and pricing curve as, in part, existing players started targeting upper-end SLR users.

My bet (sadly) is that I give it a 70/30 chance of becoming 'DMR, The Sequel'.  System (lenses, grip, tilt/shift, etc) roll-out is already far, far too slow for a new product looking to gain traction. Once the 'pregnant snake' effect of affluent early-adopter Leica fan sales is complete, I think you'll see (are seeing??) volumes slow dramatically and pace of release of new lens/premium accessories follow accordingly (R&D $$ follow Sales $$) and the system eventually be allowed to become a tech showcase with collector mystique.

Had they stuck to their core expertise (glass) and co-developed the system with Phase (priced accordingly), offered premium glass for the Phase system and 'pulled a Zeiss (or Cosina Voigtlander)' (as mentioned earlier) recycling the sunk-costs of their R glass into LE, LF & LS mount lenses (your D3X/A900/1Ds3 would be your 'R10'), the prospects  for Leica in SLR/MF land would be looking far, far different.  

I think a right-priced 3_(or lower) MP,  co-branded 'P2' in standard Mamiya mount and offering Leica-designed premium glass as an option would be a perfect adjunct system for a lot of Phase shooters. I also think they'd be selling as many CaNikOny lenses as they could make (talk about p****ng-away cash flow)...

Oh well...
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Erik Kaffehr
 

Conner999

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The S2 is "better" than the D3X
« Reply #47 on: July 18, 2010, 07:58:24 am »

Hi Erik,

I agree Pentax plays in a different snack bracket, but I just picked their name as an example of a known quality manufacturer to pose the question of how the S2 would be received if it wasn't a Leica...

On the odds.  I don't know if they've bet the firm on it, but they've bet what's left of their reputation in non-RF land on it.  After the DMR's demise and the 'R10' debacle, if the S2 is allowed to whither on the vine, any further attempts by them to market a non-RF will be all but ignored outside the faithful - and even then all but the most die-hard.  

Part of the issue is that the repeated 'an R10 is coming...trust us' followed by the sudden disposal of their remaining R inventory to dealers and the 'oops, no R10, sell your glass' created a lot of ill-will and a "I'll believe it when I see it, not when Solms promises it" mindset among many Leica users and observers  - making it tougher to ask a subset of same to swallow a $30K+ bill today on promises of a commitment to the system and that needed lenses, etc., will be released in a timely manner (or at all).

Nice concept, but between having the worst possible timing, by myopically choosing to develop it solely in-house (which reflects the price) and by risking entry w/o a custom processing solution, I think they self-lobotomized the product's odds of success.  To add insult to injury, the program's marketing strategy is all but non-existent and Solm's release rate for fleshing-out the system reflects either a deadly mis-conceptualization of the rate of change (in terms of technology and value propositions) in the market or (my guess) a lack of critical R&D resources at the program's disposal.  Given that the S2's premium vs Hassy/Phase is nebulous at best as IQ differences between like-equipped systems are splitting the finest hairs, and a price drop is never going to happen,  Solms needs to get on the stick and fast if they want this thing to gain any serious buyer mindshare.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2010, 08:22:17 am by Conner999 »
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ErikKaffehr

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The S2 is "better" than the D3X
« Reply #48 on: July 18, 2010, 09:26:10 am »

Quote from: ErikKaffehr
Guillermo,

Lloyd Chambers has two raw files for download on his DAP site. DAP is a pay site but the content is very good. Lloyd terms for download are a bit restrictive.

I'm going a write a small article on what I found this week.

Update: I used LR 3

Best regards
Erik
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BernardLanguillier

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The S2 is "better" than the D3X
« Reply #49 on: July 18, 2010, 11:26:45 am »

Quote from: uaiomex
Mamiya just anounced new prices for their digital MF cameras. As low as $9995.
http://www.mamiya.com/en/AboutMamiya/News/...s-Releases.aspx
Eduardo

That is 10.000 US$ for a 3 years old 22 megapixel sensor, right?

Besides, you've got to love the wording "was designed to be the most durable MF camera on the market"... when you know that Pentax is confident enough in the waterproofing of the 645D to pour a glass of water on it... and garantees 500+ images battery life at -10C...

What else should be believed in this press release?  

Cheers,
Bernard

BernardLanguillier

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The S2 is "better" than the D3X
« Reply #50 on: July 18, 2010, 11:32:25 am »

Quote from: ErikKaffehr
Hi,

The Pentax has a different price tag. Pentax would probably not try to sell an MF DSLR for 25 kUSD and would they do that they would fail. It has taken Pentax some time to come out with the 645D, we don't know why the wait was so long.

Actually we do know:

- the project was shelved for one+ year after the take over of Pentax by Hoya,
- the rest is the time it took them to come up with a camera that no Japanese Velvia Pentax 645 user would find anything to object against (be it in terms of colors, digital artifacts, cold weather battery life, interface, mechanical resistance to water,...).

The only think the 645D has in common with its ancesters is the lens mount, 100% of the rest is new and digital specific.

Cheers,
Bernard

ErikKaffehr

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The S2 is "better" than the D3X
« Reply #51 on: July 19, 2010, 06:35:13 am »

Bernard,

What about the lenses? You had a good article on the Pentax a while ago on LuLa, any news since that?

Best regards
Erik


Quote from: BernardLanguillier
Actually we do know:

- the project was shelved for one+ year after the take over of Pentax by Hoya,
- the rest is the time it took them to come up with a camera that no Japanese Velvia Pentax 645 user would find anything to object against (be it in terms of colors, digital artifacts, cold weather battery life, interface, mechanical resistance to water,...).

The only think the 645D has in common with its ancesters is the lens mount, 100% of the rest is new and digital specific.

Cheers,
Bernard
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ziocan

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The S2 is "better" than the D3X
« Reply #52 on: July 19, 2010, 07:02:51 am »

Amen.


Quote from: fredjeang
I'm very very shocked by the interest found on those types of comparaisons, extremely limited, and I also hope that Lu-La will not fall into the same fashion.

I will point again that comparing the S2 to a D3x is not appropriate, just an exercice of simple curiosity.
If you are a serious S2 potential buyer, I mean that you are looking for informations that you might use practically and not being curious about cheaper good alternatives,
then you know that this camera has caracteristics (sensor, slow operation, approach etc...) that are in the domain of MFD. Don't let fool yourself by the dslr design because
this is an MF camera with all the hassles and the goodies of MFD. So, if you are looking seriously to this Leica, it is because you are aware and prepared to deal with MF camera,
therefore what you want to know is how it compares to a 40 MP Phase or Hassy equivalent, not even a P65.

If I was a potential Leica S2 buyer, I won't give a damn about that the Nikon is 3 or 10 times cheaper for a samish IQ. I'm just interested and have the money to do it and price is a secondary option.
Many of us can not access those gear, and I will never go to a store and ask for testing this Leica or any other MF gear if I'm not in a position to buy it or seriously considering it.
This is simply internet curiosity, and it sells well.

Also, all we hear is about IQ-money equation. Sadly...really sadly, very very little serious information about operation with studio lights, how it operates on the field in different professional situations etc...
This is all amateur kind of datas, made for curious amateurism and web smoking rooms. IQ is a very small part of the equation. Because today, most of the cameras produced have really good IQ.

What I really thank in GetDPI (and I'm not a forum member because I don't have the time to be in more than one forum), is that they talked about things like weight balance more than white balance...
if you follow me. This is a crucial information because it is something you will have to deal with it all the time and not possible to change. Those are relevant informations.

The very first time I handled a D3, I knew immediatly that it was not a camera for me. Just for the handling. I read everywhere that this is a magnificent tool, but because of the sensation in my hands,
I'm not going to buy it ever, even it is the best camera of the all universe. It just don't feel right in my hands. Others will find the opposite and thank god we have many options.

In the moment you are working seriously on your photography and concentrate in your art and craft, all those datas, comparaisons, DxO etc...are just falling appart. What you want is a tool that match your style,
your hand, your approach, your vision, your needs and your bank account. Oh, and your visual attraction too.
And what is important is how this tool is behaving in real conditions.

I'm sorry but if you have the time to spend in those scientific superstitions, supositions, and all the list of maybes and ifs, then you are not focussed in the production of your imagery itself.
Because in the case you where concentrating on your vision, you will find very little interest in those datas. It is a matter of where you put your attention and energy.

I also read that the Leica is better built because weather sealed. But some time ago, I opened a thread about the use of MF backs in harsh conditions and MF users where
talkinbg about their experiences. It appeared that those MF backs are extremelly capable of handling extremes conditions, and they don't claim weather seals.
But those where informations from many years users in desert, moutain, ice etc... not for a few days testing that maybe or if.

We should maybe reflexionate on the fact that most if not all serious artists and top photographers are rarelly participating to these kind of debates, neither need to know the curves etc...
1- they don't have the time to do it
2- they know that most of the gear are ok
3- they are focussed in their art

Maybe our interest for these testing is showing that we are not on track but distracted.

Best regards.
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Doug Peterson

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The S2 is "better" than the D3X
« Reply #53 on: July 19, 2010, 09:26:23 am »

Quote from: BernardLanguillier
Besides, you've got to love the wording "was designed to be the most durable MF camera on the market"... when you know that Pentax is confident enough in the waterproofing of the 645D to pour a glass of water on it... and garantees 500+ images battery life at -10C...

Durable <> Weather Proofing <> Battery Life

The only way to prove durability is to have hundreds of units in real world (mixed condition) usage for a year or two and see how many break down or require repair/service.

The Pentax is clearly weather proofed pretty darn well (which is a great asset to photographer who wish to shoot in the rain or near water spray) and has good battery life (again a good asset) but durability will not be clear either way for some time.

Or perhaps I'm confusing "durability" with "longevity". Meh - it's all "marketing speak" anyway :-). All that really matters is "will it work when I need it to" and then, since everything can break: "what are my options if it doesn't. One of the advantages of a all-in-one system like the 645D is the weather sealing is better. One of the disadvantages is that the body and sensor are all in one unit; with most other MFDB systems the digital back is very very reliable so a backup for most purposes only requires a backup body. In the Phase One body system this means you can have a $600 Mamiya AFD1 body as your backup (depending on your needs).

Doug Peterson
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« Last Edit: July 19, 2010, 09:30:44 am by dougpetersonci »
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Doug Peterson

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The S2 is "better" than the D3X
« Reply #54 on: July 19, 2010, 09:50:15 am »

Quote from: fredjeang
I also read that the Leica is better built because weather sealed. But some time ago, I opened a thread about the use of MF backs in harsh conditions and MF users where
talkinbg about their experiences. It appeared that those MF backs are extremelly capable of handling extremes conditions, and they don't claim weather seals.
But those where informations from many years users in desert, moutain, ice etc... not for a few days testing that maybe or if.

Weather sealing and ability to handle adverse conditions are not the same. I would NEVER pour a bucket of water on a Phase One system, but that doesn't mean I don't trust it 100% to work consistently and with consistent image quality through a huge variety of heat, cold, spray, humidity, and other "crap" weather.

Many such "claims" need to be proven by the real world usage over many years that you refer to. My senior thesis in college was on time lapse and involved several streaks of thousands of images in the middle of the cold Ohio night (I know there are colder places, but several thousand images in a row in that weather is a pretty harsh test). I had two dSLRs which made similar claims about weather sealing but one performed consistently and the other performed erratically) - I would not even try to make a general conclusion from one such data point (hence I won't tell you the models/brands) but it was a nice early experience for me to realize construction quality, design tolerances, design intentions, manufacturing cost, all come into play and not just phrases like "partially" or "fully" weather sealed.

This is not meant as a slam on any product. The idea that Leica and Pentax can demo their units with glasses of water poured over them is in the very least "really cool" and likely very reassuring for photographers who work in rainy or water-spray-filled areas that don't want to put their camera away after anything more than a moderate drizzle.

Another quick example since they came to mind...
I spent an entire day on location last month troubleshooting a computer/camera/digital-back issue with a client. He is a location architectural shooter. The problem was the system would not connect to the computer when he was on a shoot (so he had to shoot to CF card), but every time he came back from the shoot it worked perfectly (even when we did things "not perfectly" to try to get it to fail). So after some frustrating troubleshooting I was able to pass through his city and troubleshoot with him in person. We found the problem was heat - he sets up his laptop on a stand in the sun and uses a viewing-screen-shade which covers the monitor, but not the rest of the laptop and the sun was hitting the laptop directly for several hours in the hot summer of the South. The phase one back kept trucking the entire time, but the laptop's firewire port would become non-responsive (even to other firewire devices like FW hard drives) after the internal laptop temperature got too high. This was the first generation MacBookPro 17" and it was known for unusually poor heat management (for an Apple laptop). For the troubleshooting we had brought along another (newer) 15" MBP which worked perfectly even as the internal laptop temperature got very high (indicating to me that Apple significantly increased their heat-sinking). It would be impossible to read this from specs as specs like "operating temperature range" don't distinguish between being in direct sunlight or shaded (the "ambient temperature" is the same) and the laptop DID turn on and "worked" - only the FW port was a problem. Needless to say he bought a new laptop and has been happy since.

Doug Peterson
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« Last Edit: July 19, 2010, 09:51:17 am by dougpetersonci »
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