The S2 is "better" than the D3X

[fredjeang]

Hi,

Thanks for a lot of comments.

May I suggest that we turn back to the topic and discuss the position of the S2 in the marketplace?

Best regards
Erik

Great suggestion Erik.

Interesting, in the French MF-LF circles (serious and experienced users), they consider this S2 as "one of the best camera for the photo-reporter".

I was first a bit surprised and thought that statement a little wired to be honest. But...more I think about it more I find it ok.

The S2 is very difficult to positionned, even if their system would be matured.

Before, there was a worldwide petition that I signed at that time to influenced Leica to go for a digital R solution. Of course, this was a message
in a bottle that has never been considered by the Leica's executives, as expected.
I think they did a wrong choice, and even insisting in this path, why couldn't they provide with this dslr superb design, a back exactly like with the Sinar is a mystery.

Now, if you consider this camera as a "gift" for a high-end photo-reporter carrier, it all makes sense.

IMO.

[tho_mas]

I mostly shooting landscapes (...)
If you are willing to spend like 300 kUSD on a body and couple of lenses I guess you are going for the ultimate image quality and are willing to accept some some inconveniences.

if you are after ultimate IQ in landscape photography I think a lightweight, small tech camera with Rodenstock and/or Schneider lenses and a (used or new) P45+ (or so) is not only better value but also better IQ.
of course a P65+ or H60 or the 56MP Leaf would be even better...
IMO...

[tho_mas]

I don't use any of these features so their advantages are meaningless to me.

neither do I need those features. In fact my kit is even much poorer equipped (than the S2 or current MFD cameras)...
But others may find these features much more important than a slight edge in IQ/resolution ...

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

This is a good example of the point I try to make. D3X is jack of all trades. Doing a good job for all...

When I went into medium format I wanted a Horseman VH-R 2x3" technical camera but I realized it was to inconvenient for my family. So I went for Pentax 67. Life is a compromise.

Best regards
Erik

if you are after ultimate IQ in landscape photography I think a lightweight, small tech camera with Rodenstock and/or Schneider lenses and a (used or new) P45+ (or so) is not only better value but also better IQ.
of course a P65+ or H60 or the 56MP Leaf would be even better...
IMO...

[Guy Mancuso]

I think Erik what your trying to get to here on this thread is the bottom line question" Is it worth it"

Now that can mean many things to many different types of folks. But we all come down to reality at some point with check book in hand ready to buy something. What that something is a big question mark. If I can speak for folks that do these reviews is we all want to see how it is and how it compares to other gear in it's category. Really pretty easy in a way to compare a Hassy and a Phase when you go to buy, they are essential the same thing in class. One maybe better at this or that and the other has features, software that you like better. So you do your Pro's and Con's data sheet and make the best decision for yourself. The S2 being a tweener it jumps category's of type and makes that decision harder. As you say the D3X is three times less money but not three times less Image Quality and a Phase P40+ and Hassy HD40 is basically a wash when it comes to IQ so here it will come down to is it 12k( estimate) more worth the ergo's and features along with it's style.

Obviously we could go on for days running these comparisons between the S2 and what is already on the market. Let's face it 28K for body and lens is a lot of money for the average income shooter. Than you factor in a D3x at 8k and a P40+/H40 around 19k than you start really scratching your head wondering what makes the most sense for you needs and such. This is not easy and reviews run the gamut of what we focus on in those reviews. My suggestion has always been look at the reviews , look at the charts and the scientific data and than blend it.

Not sure any reviewer including myself wants folks to just take our word for it and go buy. I believe there is plenty of info out there to sit and sort out your needs versus your budget. Myself on a personal level would not mind having a S2 as it fits my style but it does not fit my budget versus the IQ from it and it has some fundamental issues that bug me. But that's me

I'm a firm believer in dedicated software

[BernardLanguillier]

The question is in part, is the gain in image quality worth paying three times the price?

I guess that the question should be considered in the context of:
- A full system including lenses and the opportunity cost resulting from missed opportunities due to all the things that might not be available in one system against the other,
- The coming 5 years... knowing that one system might evolve faster than the other.

Have fun with the discussion.  

Cheers,
Bernard

[eronald]

I guess that the question should be considered in the context of:
- A full system including lenses and the opportunity cost resulting from missed opportunities due to all the things that might not be available in one system against the other,
- The coming 5 years... knowing that one system might evolve faster than the other.

Have fun with the discussion.  

Cheers,
Bernard

The D3x is now obsolete technology, it's pretty clear that Sony will have the A900 successor at Photokina, and some time later Nikon will get the new sensor to compete with the 1DsIV. If the S2 has issues now competing with the D3x, then it will have trouble when matched against the much cheaper Sony and its built-in stabiliser and Zeiss lenses.

What is a pity, in a way, is that Leica is killing its superb lens design team by making them do designs that can not be reused as third party lenses; in the mean time, Zeiss is recycling 20 year old Contax lens designs into revenue.

Edmund

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

I'm not sure about D3X being obsolete. In my view and DxO's the D3X leads DSLR technology right now and I would not expect Sony or Canon to leapfrog. I'm having two of Sony's Zeiss labeled lenses and I think they are OK, but not necessarily best of breed. The Leica S2 will also develop, meantime.

It is quite possible that CCD's are moribund, we don't know! May have been smarter for Leica to team up with a CMOS maker like Sony or Panasonic.

Best regards
Erik

The D3x is now obsolete technology, it's pretty clear that Sony will have the A900 successor at Photokina, and some time later Nikon will get the new sensor to compete with the 1DsIV. If the S2 has issues now competing with the D3x, then it will have trouble when matched against the much cheaper Sony and its built-in stabiliser and Zeiss lenses.

What is a pity, in a way, is that Leica is killing its superb lens design team by making them do designs that can not be reused as third party lenses; in the mean time, Zeiss is recycling 20 year old Contax lens designs into revenue.

Edmund

[ErikKaffehr]

Guy,

I'm with you to about 95%, the remaining 5% we may discuss!

Best regards
Erik

I think Erik what your trying to get to here on this thread is the bottom line question" Is it worth it"

Now that can mean many things to many different types of folks. But we all come down to reality at some point with check book in hand ready to buy something. What that something is a big question mark. If I can speak for folks that do these reviews is we all want to see how it is and how it compares to other gear in it's category. Really pretty easy in a way to compare a Hassy and a Phase when you go to buy, they are essential the same thing in class. One maybe better at this or that and the other has features, software that you like better. So you do your Pro's and Con's data sheet and make the best decision for yourself. The S2 being a tweener it jumps category's of type and makes that decision harder. As you say the D3X is three times less money but not three times less Image Quality and a Phase P40+ and Hassy HD40 is basically a wash when it comes to IQ so here it will come down to is it 12k( estimate) more worth the ergo's and features along with it's style.

Obviously we could go on for days running these comparisons between the S2 and what is already on the market. Let's face it 28K for body and lens is a lot of money for the average income shooter. Than you factor in a D3x at 8k and a P40+/H40 around 19k than you start really scratching your head wondering what makes the most sense for you needs and such. This is not easy and reviews run the gamut of what we focus on in those reviews. My suggestion has always been look at the reviews , look at the charts and the scientific data and than blend it.

Not sure any reviewer including myself wants folks to just take our word for it and go buy. I believe there is plenty of info out there to sit and sort out your needs versus your budget. Myself on a personal level would not mind having a S2 as it fits my style but it does not fit my budget versus the IQ from it and it has some fundamental issues that bug me. But that's me

I'm a firm believer in dedicated software

[fredjeang]

The D3x is now obsolete technology, it's pretty clear that Sony will have the A900 successor at Photokina, and some time later Nikon will get the new sensor to compete with the 1DsIV. If the S2 has issues now competing with the D3x, then it will have trouble when matched against the much cheaper Sony and its built-in stabiliser and Zeiss lenses.

What is a pity, in a way, is that Leica is killing its superb lens design team by making them do designs that can not be reused as third party lenses; in the mean time, Zeiss is recycling 20 year old Contax lens designs into revenue.

Edmund

Exactly.

Far from declining, Zeiss is having a pretty good digital age and actually is going to be a relaible player. Leica has made really unconsistent choices, some good ones too, some much more risky and failures. They really have to avoid mistakes and go for sailable products from now.

But we should keep in mind that those very high-end gear are targetting basically 2 types of photographers, both wealphy.
-the very experienced amateur or pro, wealphy enough
-the pro as part of the natural working investment

To me, this leica is more willing to attract the first customer's type. This gear is not suitable for 90% of us.
For the 90% we have many many choices, and soon the Pentax MF.

Potential S2 buyer won't care at all about the D3 or the D4,5,6...it seems that many are projecting their own experience, taste or situation there,
putting into account the price, the tech evolution etc... Those are your projections. An S2 buyer has other motivations than price and speed, even if it is just having a great round red logo
on a supreme minimalist design. If you can afford it, that's fine.

You want to be "reasonable". But this is not a reasonable camera. It is something else.
Would I buy it? without doubt I would. But I won't because I can't.

IMO.

[Guy Mancuso]

Huy,

I'm with you to about 95%, the remaining 5% we may discuss!

Best regards
Erik

95 percent is damn good. LOL

[jduncan]

Great suggestion Erik.

Interesting, in the French MF-LF circles (serious and experienced users), they consider this S2 as "one of the best camera for the photo-reporter".

I was first a bit surprised and thought that statement a little wired to be honest. But...more I think about it more I find it ok.

The S2 is very difficult to positionned, even if their system would be matured.

Before, there was a worldwide petition that I signed at that time to influenced Leica to go for a digital R solution. Of course, this was a message
in a bottle that has never been considered by the Leica's executives, as expected.
I think they did a wrong choice, and even insisting in this path, why couldn't they provide with this dslr superb design, a back exactly like with the Sinar is a mystery.

Now, if you consider this camera as a "gift" for a high-end photo-reporter carrier, it all makes sense.

IMO.

For me that's the great question. The s2 is build like a tank, resistant to weather and have beautiful lens line.  It can use central or leaf shutters.
The H4D40 has: Better price,  similar  resolution, similar lens line, GPS, TS, multiple viewfinders, functional Tethering, extension tubes, focusing screens, support form V lenses, maturity, shades etc etc ....

I don't know how the Phase one will do in a similar system side by side, but they have the P65+ the best image quality you can get according to DxO test and anecdotical reviews,  capture one, and talking tanks you can step on a P45+ .

So I am not sure for whom is the S2. Maybe that is the key point: It is due to create a new market segment.

 I guess I don't understand what a photo reporter is in this case. Reporting as I usually understand it (I am not a native english speaker) will  need fast operation, some times high iso, Tele lenses  etc. High resolution is not crucial, even more: some times it can get in your way (sending pictures wireless /satellite to the the office).

Street reporting (documenting life so to speak)  will call for a less intrusive system. Maybe a big sensor (like nikon dx)  compact camera. But as I say before: I'm not sure what they mean by reporter.

[fredjeang]

For me that's the great question. The s2 is build like a tank, resistant to weather and have beautiful lens line.  It can use central or leaf shutters.
The H4D40 has: Better price,  similar  resolution, similar lens line, GPS, TS, multiple viewfinders, functional Tethering, extension tubes, focusing screens, support form V lenses, maturity, shades etc etc ....

I don't know how the Phase one will do in a similar system side by side, but they have the P65+ the best image quality you can get according to DxO test and anecdotical reviews,  capture one, and talking tanks you can step on a P45+ .

So I am not sure for whom is the S2. Maybe that is the key point: It is due to create a new market segment.

 I guess I don't understand what a photo reporter is in this case. Reporting as I usually understand it (I am not a native english speaker) will  need fast operation, some times high iso, Tele lenses  etc. High resolution is not crucial, even more: some times it can get in your way (sending pictures wireless /satellite to the the office).

Street reporting (documenting life so to speak)  will call for a less intrusive system. Maybe a big sensor (like nikon dx)  compact camera. But as I say before: I'm not sure what they mean by reporter.

Surprising init?

According to the french lectures and MF gurus I talked to in the "Beaumarchais alley" (a place in Paris where all the MF-LF dealers are located), what they understand by photo-reporter and S2 covers from personalities portraits (politicians etc...) to remote locations, wars and social reportage. The M9 would be the backup of the S2.
This is aimed to a wealphy reporter in search of ultimate IQ in a simple and extremely relaible dslr design. Fast enough to cover most of the situations. The D3 being basically a sport camera and the x version a studio camera. Do you need 8 frames/second to do social reportage or landscape? I don't personally.

Also, all the gurus (even tech gurus) that I've speak with and tryied the camera and work daily with Phase or Hassy or Leaf, are saying that it is a very good gear indeed. As Guy Mancuso pointed, not without issues but but but but and again, a dedicated Leica software would be a good idea instead of DNG (I'm currently learning the importance of that with C1 more and more), no bloody AA really makes difference but it also depends on your tastes and the weight balance between gear and lenses. The S2 apparently is light with heavy lenses.
That for me would be the real important data with this camera.(putting the price appart).

Cheers.

[aaron]

The only thing I can take from all these Leica S2 discussions is that the Nikon D3X is a bloody bargain  

Nikon couldn't pay fo this kind of marketing.

[jduncan]

The only thing I can take from all these Leica S2 discussions is that the Nikon D3X is a bloody bargain  

Nikon couldn't pay fo this kind of marketing.

I almost choke laughing  

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,


DNG is just a format, no software. I honestly doubt if rolling your own in software is such a good idea. Of course, Guy Mancuso may be right that Phase One C1 is much better for Phase One cameras than ACR, but C1 (Capture One) has been around a few years. Leica could make it's own software, what it would be like 0.8 version with few features and many bugs.

It would be better to team up with a maker of decent software and help them tune their software for the Leica. The natural choice would of course be C1 but I guess that won't happen.

Best regards
Erik

Surprising init?

According to the french lectures and MF gurus I talked to in the "Beaumarchais alley" (a place in Paris where all the MF-LF dealers are located), what they understand by photo-reporter and S2 covers from personalities portraits (politicians etc...) to remote locations, wars and social reportage. The M9 would be the backup of the S2.
This is aimed to a wealphy reporter in search of ultimate IQ in a simple and extremely relaible dslr design. Fast enough to cover most of the situations. The D3 being basically a sport camera and the x version a studio camera. Do you need 8 frames/second to do social reportage or landscape? I don't personally.

Also, all the gurus (even tech gurus) that I've speak with and tryied the camera and work daily with Phase or Hassy or Leaf, are saying that it is a very good gear indeed. As Guy Mancuso pointed, not without issues but but but but and again, a dedicated Leica software would be a good idea instead of DNG (I'm currently learning the importance of that with C1 more and more), no bloody AA really makes difference but it also depends on your tastes and the weight balance between gear and lenses. The S2 apparently is light with heavy lenses.
That for me would be the real important data with this camera.(putting the price appart).

Cheers.

[pcunite]

Obviously, the two cameras attract different type of photographers.

Yes they do and this attraction does not need to be based on scientific fact. I shoot with a Canon 1D body and do so because I like everything about the camera and workflow. I want the Leica S2 but don't have one for the same reason I don't have a Lamborghini, I just can't fit it into my current work/life style right now. I don't need the sports car or the Leica, 'cause none of my customers are demanding this of me. The Leica is not an economical purchase for many reasons, this is obvious to all of us here, but there are those who have a five car garage that could really use another camera. The sad thing to me is that the Leica S2 marketing campaign made me take notice of it, It does not belong in my world. I don't know of any P65+ owners giving it any serious look either.

[Conner999]

I love Leica glass as much as the next obsessive gearhead (God knows my wallet has suffered accordingly over the years), but I wonder how the discussion around the S2 would change if it weren't a Leica product.  

What if say, Pentax, had, instead of the 645D, released the S2 as it's MF entry vehicle? Same glass designs, same construction, same everything, just no red dot or Leica mystique... For some reason images of a (verbal) "WTF were they thinking..?" crucifixion keep coming to mind ;>

As much as I wish them well and could debate the pros & cons and value propositions all day, the bottom line is I think the system was: a great concept that was pegged at 'old MF market' prices and released about 3-4 years too late.  Regardless of why it was dropped on us when it was, it was released when not only the global economy but the economies of the MF hardware market were changing dramatically as the once-rarefied sector suddenly adopted a DSLResque depreciation and pricing curve as, in part, existing players started targeting upper-end SLR users.

My bet (sadly) is that I give it a 70/30 chance of becoming 'DMR, The Sequel'.  System (lenses, grip, tilt/shift, etc) roll-out is already far, far too slow for a new product looking to gain traction. Once the 'pregnant snake' effect of affluent early-adopter Leica fan sales is complete, I think you'll see (are seeing??) volumes slow dramatically and pace of release of new lens/premium accessories follow accordingly (R&D $$ follow Sales $$) and the system eventually be allowed to become a tech showcase with collector mystique.

Had they stuck to their core expertise (glass) and co-developed the system with Phase (priced accordingly), offered premium glass for the Phase system and 'pulled a Zeiss (or Cosina Voigtlander)' (as mentioned earlier) recycling the sunk-costs of their R glass into LE, LF & LS mount lenses (your D3X/A900/1Ds3 would be your 'R10'), the prospects  for Leica in SLR/MF land would be looking far, far different.  

I think a right-priced 3_(or lower) MP,  co-branded 'P2' in standard Mamiya mount and offering Leica-designed premium glass as an option would be a perfect adjunct system for a lot of Phase shooters. I also think they'd be selling as many CaNikOny lenses as they could make (talk about p****ng-away cash flow)...

Oh well...

[fredjeang]

Either of the cameras compared here - and most of those that aren't - are capable of making damn fine images. I have a dream where all of this angst is channelled into making images rather than talking about cameras.

Dream on...

That was exactly the content of my first post here. The difference Keith is that you expained it in 2 lines, and it took me 29 lines to say exactly the same at the end.

I think I might have something to learn from you.

Cheers.

[Guillermo Luijk]

- There are a lot of aliasing artifacts (moirés, color artifacts and false detail) in the S2 images especially in stucco detail, but also in the mosaic

Hi Erik, I would be interested in checking these artifacts. Which are the RAW file you found moiré artifacts? and which RAW developer did you use to develop the RAW files?

Regards