Comparing resistance to scuffing on fine art papers w/Epson vs Canon printers

[wildstork]

I read recently that the new Canon ipf 8300 scuffs less than the Epson and HP printers.  I'm printing some very large images, some in excess of 40x60", and scuffing becomes a major issue when handling, bagging and rolling prints this size over a 6" tube.  Has anyone who has owned an Epson 7000 or 9000 series printer and now uses the Canon ipf 6300 or 8300 printers compared prints made on identical fine art papers, whether Moab Entrada/Crane Museo with MK inks, and observed less scuffing with the Canon inks?  Finally, are the Canon inks water proof (or resistant) like the Epson inks are?

[Scott Martin]

Has anyone who has owned an Epson 7000 or 9000 series printer and now uses the Canon ipf 6300 or 8300 printers compared prints made on identical fine art papers, whether Moab Entrada/Crane Museo with MK inks, and observed less scuffing with the Canon inks?

I've done some side-by-side scratch tests on several papers including Moab Entrada using the Epson 9900, Canon 8300 and HP Z3200. The bottom line here is that matte surface papers have an incredibly fragile surface regardless of the ink that lies on top of it. The soft surface can easily get pushed down by a stray fingernail. I make a fair number of 60"x88" prints myself and won't use matte surface papers for this and other reasons. Some of my clients that do so choose to coat them prior to shipping.  

The scratch resistance of the inks plays a greater role on fiber base and RC papers - especially those with glossy surfaces. On these papers, I've found Canon's scratch resistance to be notably improved over the competition. Hahnemuhle's Fine Art Pearl and Photo Rag Pearl products are favorites of mine for their impressive surface durability and handling (not to mention look and feel, color gamut and DMax). Combined with Canon's latest inks, prints on Pearl hold up astonishingly well to lots of handling. Other non-Bartya fiber base papers are similar in this respect but not quite as good as Hahnemuhle's, IMO. Epson Exhibition Fiber and Museo Silver Rag are practically as good and are currently competitively priced. I'd consider using one of these non-bartya fiber base papers for your grand format printing if you can.

You might find thte "improved scratch resistance, lowered bronzing and lowered gloss differential" section of my review of interest:
http://www.on-sight.com/2010/04/25/canon-x...printer-review/

In it is the following photo of three prints after scratch testing:
http://www.on-sight.com/images/3BrandPrint...stance_full.jpg

Finally, are the Canon inks water proof (or resistant) like the Epson inks are?

Yes. I've had some x300 prints (both coated and uncoated) on the roof a local museum for several months now. They are out in the Texas sun, and are subject to rain and hail. I'm experimenting with using pigmented ink prints for somewhat temporary (~1 year) outdoor signage on media like vinyl and Tyvek. The inks are completely waterproof and show no bleeding after days of constant downpour. Applying a liquid laminate does improve lightfastness and surface durability and is recommended.

[wildstork]

Thanks for your comprehensive answer, Scott.  
Unfortunately my clients are only interested in fine art paper... an opinion I agree with... so I'll have to live with it.  Do you know if Print Shield or Moab's Desert Varnish Spray would help?  I've used Print Shield and it does nothing to hide scuffs once they're there.  I haven't tested to see if scratch resistance is improved once the spray is applied so I need to do that.  Do you know if the Desert Varnish is the same or if there is another spray product (for fine art paper) that will hide scuffs?  I'm assuming your reference to a liquid laminate refers to the aforementioned sprays... but will look at the links you kindly supplied to see if there is something else in liquid laminates that I'm unaware of.
Thank you again.

I've done some side-by-side scratch tests on several papers including Moab Entrada using the Epson 9900, Canon 8300 and HP Z3200. The bottom line here is that matte surface papers have an incredibly fragile surface regardless of the ink that lies on top of it. The soft surface can easily get pushed down by a stray fingernail. I make a fair number of 60"x88" prints myself and won't use matte surface papers for this and other reasons. Some of my clients that do so choose to coat them prior to shipping.  

The scratch resistance of the inks plays a greater role on fiber base and RC papers - especially those with glossy surfaces. On these papers, I've found Canon's scratch resistance to be notably improved over the competition. Hahnemuhle's Fine Art Pearl and Photo Rag Pearl products are favorites of mine for their impressive surface durability and handling (not to mention look and feel, color gamut and DMax). Combined with Canon's latest inks, prints on Pearl hold up astonishingly well to lots of handling. Other non-Bartya fiber base papers are similar in this respect but not quite as good as Hahnemuhle's, IMO. Epson Exhibition Fiber and Museo Silver Rag are practically as good and are currently competitively priced. I'd consider using one of these non-bartya fiber base papers for your grand format printing if you can.

You might find thte "improved scratch resistance, lowered bronzing and lowered gloss differential" section of my review of interest:
http://www.on-sight.com/2010/04/25/canon-x...printer-review/

In it is the following photo of three prints after scratch testing:
http://www.on-sight.com/images/3BrandPrint...stance_full.jpg


Yes. I've had some x300 prints (both coated and uncoated) on the roof a local museum for several months now. They are out in the Texas sun, and are subject to rain and hail. I'm experimenting with using pigmented ink prints for somewhat temporary (~1 year) outdoor signage on media like vinyl and Tyvek. The inks are completely waterproof and show no bleeding after days of constant downpour. Applying a liquid laminate does improve lightfastness and surface durability and is recommended.

[Scott Martin]

Unfortunately my clients are only interested in fine art paper... an opinion I agree with... so I'll have to live with it.

Or do they just think of matte papers as being the only "Fine Art" papers? :-]

Do you know if Print Shield or Moab's Desert Varnish Spray would help?  I've used Print Shield and it does nothing to hide scuffs once they're there.

Print Shield and Desert Varnish are the same solvent based product. None of the aresol can products are going to do much for changing the surface.

I'm assuming your reference to a liquid laminate refers to the aforementioned sprays... but will look at the links you kindly supplied to see if there is something else in liquid laminates that I'm unaware of.

Water based products like PremierArt's Eco-print shield, ClearStar Type C and Lumina's AquaCryl are three excellent options. They are available ina  variety of surfaces (satin, semigloss, gloss, etc). These modern water based products don't come in an aresol can and require brushing, rolling or spraying via an HVLP system (preferred). They will change the surface, durability and look of your prints. Some people love it, others don't care for it on matte papers.

That's hard road making prints that size on matte paper. Lots of throw aways, redos, frustration, shipping problems, etc. And it's not going to change - it's the nature of the game. I understand your frustration. I've been exhibiting digital prints on matte surface papers since 1991 and am so glad we have the options that we have today. Matte papers aren't the only fine art papers out there. I'd encourage you to consider other paper and coating options with an open mind.