Shadows blocking up on HP Z3200

[PeterOReilly]

I am using an HP Z3200 24in printer with Ilford Galerie Smooth Pearl paper. I have created a profile for the paper using the built-in spectrophotometer, which generally produces good profiles. However, one problem I am finding is the shadows blocking up - everything below about 35 RGB units is printing as pure black, with no shadow detail.

I have tried using other papers with their appropriate profiles, and the problem is the same. I have also tried Ilford's own profile for this paper/printer combination, and this still produces the same results, so this would seem to be a problem with the printer.

Has anyone else come across this problem, or can anyone suggest a way of resolving the problem?

Thanks - Peter

[walter.sk]

I am using an HP Z3200 24in printer with Ilford Galerie Smooth Pearl paper. I have created a profile for the paper using the built-in spectrophotometer, which generally produces good profiles. However, one problem I am finding is the shadows blocking up - everything below about 35 RGB units is printing as pure black, with no shadow detail.

I have tried using other papers with their appropriate profiles, and the problem is the same. I have also tried Ilford's own profile for this paper/printer combination, and this still produces the same results, so this would seem to be a problem with the printer.

Has anyone else come across this problem, or can anyone suggest a way of resolving the problem?

Thanks - Peter

Well, I don't know to what level you do color management, so pardon me if what I state is already in your workflow.  Are you softproofing?  and have you got  consistent, controlled lighting for your viewing situation?  If your monitor is accurately profiled and you see the detail in the shadows that doesn't show up in the prints it is possible that either your monitor needs to be set to a lower luminosity, or that your print-viewing area is not bright enough.  Of course, part of the problem is that the monitor will always show some more detail than the print, but not to the degree you mention.  The fact that you find this true with other papers suggests that your viewing area should probably be brighter.  Also, have you tried softproofing your image, comparing ti with the un-softproofed version of the file?  That makes it easy to use an adjustment layer to compensate for the loss of brightness in the shadow areas.

On the other hand, if you do do all of these things in your workflow, I apologize.

[Ernst Dinkla]

I am using an HP Z3200 24in printer with Ilford Galerie Smooth Pearl paper. I have created a profile for the paper using the built-in spectrophotometer, which generally produces good profiles. However, one problem I am finding is the shadows blocking up - everything below about 35 RGB units is printing as pure black, with no shadow detail.

I have tried using other papers with their appropriate profiles, and the problem is the same. I have also tried Ilford's own profile for this paper/printer combination, and this still produces the same results, so this would seem to be a problem with the printer.

Has anyone else come across this problem, or can anyone suggest a way of resolving the problem?

Thanks - Peter

There has been a change to that paper if I recall it correctly. I have the latest version IGSPP11 here but have not created a profile for it yet. I will try it out today, has to be done anyway. Could it be that you used a media preset / profile of the first version on the second one or the other way around?

Next, I always check the calibration target in situations like that. Measuring the 100% black and lower to see where the actual Dmax is c.q. the lowest ink lay down delivers the same Dmax. In the creation of a custom media preset you then can apply a general inklimit between 80-120%, say 85% if the ink layer is too rich. If that doesn't shift the Dmax from say the third patch to the 100% you should use another media preset to start with.

You used the GE-On profile and GE on the print?

Another thing. The Z3200 B&W mode calibrated isn't as linear as it was on the Z3100. For several papers it can show a similar gamma shift you describe. In color mode I do not see that shift.

Then there is the OS-X<>Adobe<>Drivers CM issue that could play a role but I'm not going to elaborate on that possibility. You might as well have a Windows machine.

--
BTW, off-topic, there's something odd about that paper, it is loaded with FBAs in the paperbase yet the top layer is so opaque (for I guess UV light) that the FBA whitening effect at the print side isn't much higher than with other RC papers. That is what I see with Eye 1 (UV+) spectrometer. On the Z3200 that doesn't play a role as the spectrometer has a UV cut filter. On a lightbox with UV light included the FBAs may create more whiteness though. It could be that the print side coating has TiO2 whitener that absorbs the UV light before it reaches the FBAs at the back.


met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla

spectral plots of +100 inkjet papers:
http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm

[deanwork]

Ernst,

I always wondered how you felt about this. Do you find any reason one would need to use the "BW MODE" of a Z printer anyway?

I started out using it all the time and it worked fine but after 6 months felt there was no need for it (apart from split-toning). If all the channels are equalized in an RGB color space, then we're only using the black and gray inks anyway right, same as Grayscale? What I do these days, and find it works really well for a very linear "toned" hue, is to just use an RGB file and assign a Hue/Sat adjustment layer and colorize the file that way. For papers like the Canson Edition Etching I use  Hue- 40,  Sat -3. This situation gives me a really beautiful neutral hue on most matte rag media  but in NO way toward a geenish tint. Using the straight GRAYSCALE equal color channel numbers I end up with a fairly pronounced coolish selenium on matte media, but very neutral on non oba fiber gloss media and rc media. Sometimes because of its great dmax and versatility, I feel like I've only begun to explore the possibilities with this inkset for black and white imaging. I appreciate the fact that the color channels are made to fade at the same rate as the gray channels, which are all very good.  I've moved all my "neutral" black and white work over to it now and will stay that way I imagine.

john






----------------------------
Another thing. The Z3200 B&W mode calibrated isn't as linear as it was on the Z3100. For several papers it can show a similar gamma shift you describe. In color mode I do not see that shift.

[John Nollendorfs]

Ernst,

I always wondered how you felt about this. Do you find any reason one would need to use the "BW MODE" of a Z printer anyway?


john

John:
I hope you don't mind if I jump in ahead of Ernst.

The one disadvantage of toning the B&W with color is the metamerism. On a recent job to match a Fuji Crystal Archive B&W print with a Z3100 print, I went through all kinds of hell, because the Fuji print did not metamerise the same as the inkjet print. I ended up printing it using the B&W mode, because that did not shift under different lighting conditions and the gallery director decided that would be more appropriate.

John Nollendorfs

[David Saffir]

I believe B&W mode uses black ink only.

David

[Ernst Dinkla]

I believe B&W mode uses black ink only.

David

David,

The B&W mode uses different combinations of the 4 greyscale inks. With some matt media presets it uses MK+PK+Grey+Light Grey. On other matt papers with less absorbing paper coatings it uses MK+Grey+Light Grey. On low quality papers it uses MK+PK+Grey. For the last I can not find the right document but I recall an abbr. of 3B, 3P, ? in one of HP's documents. For gloss papers it uses PK+Grey+ Light Grey.

The same for color mode in essence if the profiling is on neutral paper etc. and the R=G=B. The 100>0% UCR or GCR takes care of that. I may have used the term black generation for that more often but that doesn't mean that composite grey mixes are replaced by black only in the media presets, the composite greys are completely replaced by the 3-4 greyscale inks. The best way to check this is a microscope and different prints. With RIPs the outcome can be different but I'm writing about the HP drivers.

The Z3100 is still used here for its linear B&W mode. I have not seen a better Dmax in color mode on both the Z3100 and Z3200. And as written before the Z3200's B&W mode is less linear. I have reported that to HP. I actually think it is the result of a slight gamma change on the total calibrated output of the Z3200 to bring it closer to the Epson models, something people wished for when they got the Z3100. The new stronger red + a heavier load of the old hues translates to a heavier greyscale range. With good CM in color mode that change is more hidden but the B&W mode + my method to work with it shows the difference. Could be that I do not have the latest firmware on both models, I know the flaws right now and that's fine.

http://www.pigment-print.com/review/Z3200FirstPage_2.htm
bottom page

Peter's issue is not solved I think so we shouldn't wander too much.


met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla

Try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/

[Ernst Dinkla]

I am using an HP Z3200 24in printer with Ilford Galerie Smooth Pearl paper. I have created a profile for the paper using the built-in spectrophotometer, which generally produces good profiles. However, one problem I am finding is the shadows blocking up - everything below about 35 RGB units is printing as pure black, with no shadow detail.

I have tried using other papers with their appropriate profiles, and the problem is the same. I have also tried Ilford's own profile for this paper/printer combination, and this still produces the same results, so this would seem to be a problem with the printer.

Has anyone else come across this problem, or can anyone suggest a way of resolving the problem?

Thanks - Peter

Peter, last week I did some trials with the IGSPP 11. Z3200 with PCL3 driver. Made some calibrations and measured the lowest L values, I couldn't get the second patch reading higher than the 100% patch but settled for an inklimit of 94%, L value on 100% patch 3.3, second patch 3.1. Calibrated that and profiled using HP's APS and CC. HP's integrated ColorCenter profiling delivered best Dmax. Lowest L value was then 4.7 on a 21 patch greyscale wedge, approx. Dmax 2.3. The other steps became gradually lighter, certainly not blocking up. An Atkinson Test print page gave nice shadow rendering in the B&W picture of the portable CD player.

There is Dmax loss between the measured calibration 100 or 93-94% patch and the color mode 100% greyscale wedge patch. That happens on the Z3200 more than on the Z3100 as I have written before. Could be my Z3200 of course. But an L value of 4.7 is high enough in general and blocking up of shadows isn't what I see. I have no time right now to check the linearity etc. But I get back to that again.


met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla

spectral plots of +100 inkjet papers:
http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm