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Author Topic: Backups now done on quit - whose bright idea was that?  (Read 12102 times)

dreed

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Backups now done on quit - whose bright idea was that?
« Reply #20 on: July 13, 2010, 08:21:22 AM »

Quote from: kikashi
Really? Why?

The only time* I ever shut down my laptop (a MacBook Pro) is when I'm going away for many days, not taking it with me, and I'm concerned that the battery will run out before I get back. Otherwise, I simply close the lid and it goes to sleep, ready to awaken instantly when I need it. What reason do you have for shutting it down?

Jeremy

* correction: I did shut it down once when I wasn't going away, to insert some memory.

I cringe when I read stories like this. If you're doing the above then you're also likely not keeping your system up to date with patches (or at least as far as Microsoft Windows products go.) As someone who has looked after computer systems professionally, I associate long periods without rebooting a computer as poor proactive system maintenance.

But a better answer is this: I don't always know when I'll open the laptop back up again and if I've shut the lid when the battery is low, there's a chance that the battery may die supporting the hibernation, resulting in the system effectively being in a state similar to when the power is yanked out. The "instant on" you get is a result of the battery keeping certain parts of the laptop continuously running - like your system's memory - so that it doesn't need to be restored from disk. The battery's power source is limited and thus the time your system can spend in hibernation is also limited. I use hibernation when I (a) want to turn the system "off" but restore instantly whilst connected to the mains and (B) on short trips that I know the battery will survive whilst hibernating. Note that hibernation is different to suspend (-to-disk) which powers the machine off completely.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2010, 08:21:50 AM by dreed »
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BobFisher

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Backups now done on quit - whose bright idea was that?
« Reply #21 on: July 13, 2010, 08:38:13 AM »

Can't speak for anyone else, but I get all the Windoze update notifications available even though I only put the laptop into hibernation.  Same with anti-virus software.
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Per Zangenberg

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Backups now done on quit - whose bright idea was that?
« Reply #22 on: July 13, 2010, 09:00:19 AM »

Quote from: kikashi
Really? Why?

The only time* I ever shut down my laptop (a MacBook Pro) is when I'm going away for many days, not taking it with me, and I'm concerned that the battery will run out before I get back. Otherwise, I simply close the lid and it goes to sleep, ready to awaken instantly when I need it. What reason do you have for shutting it down?

Jeremy

You might not care about small things like money or the enviroment, but some of actually do...  
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Hywel

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Backups now done on quit - whose bright idea was that?
« Reply #23 on: July 13, 2010, 12:53:46 PM »

Quote from: Schewe
As for the rest...who turns off their computer these days...seriously?

Seriously? Me... and quite possibly a lot of people in the world who care about pointless and needless consumption of power. Jeez, talk about conspicuous consumption from the American contingent...!         (unless you guys run from renewables, in which case I take it all back. I'm planning to fit solar panels eventually).

I turn my Macpro off when it isn't doing anything- any time I will be away from it longer than half an hour or so. Overnight? Absolutely. Off at the wall. (I know it sometimes needs to run scheduled jobs in the early hours, but it gets to stay up all night encoding video once or twice a month, which is plenty often enough for it to run these cleanups). Lunchtime? Possibly , unless I'm coming right back to work on it. Going out of the house? Yes, definitely. I can't be using the computer when I am not sitting in front of it, so why waste power having it running?

And my Macbook Pro with SSD is so fast to reboot that I can see no reason not to power it off when I've stopped using it. The less power it uses, the better, although I'm sure the drain on standby is minimal compared with (say) needlessly leaving the Macpro running overnight.

  Cheers, Hywel.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2010, 12:54:56 PM by Hywel »
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kikashi

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« Reply #24 on: July 13, 2010, 01:04:44 PM »

Quote from: dreed
I cringe when I read stories like this. If you're doing the above then you're also likely not keeping your system up to date with patches (or at least as far as Microsoft Windows products go.) As someone who has looked after computer systems professionally, I associate long periods without rebooting a computer as poor proactive system maintenance.
Happily, I don't use Windows. Software Update runs regularly and automatically: when it tells me that there are updates available, I usually install them immediately. If that involves a reboot, I reboot. Your association with poor proactive system maintenance is indicative of working with Windows, no doubt.

Jeremy
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kikashi

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« Reply #25 on: July 13, 2010, 01:06:35 PM »

Quote from: Per Zangenberg
You might not care about small things like money or the enviroment, but some of actually do...  
The power consumption when it's asleep is about 3 watts, which impinges noticeably on neither money nor the environment.

Jeremy
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feppe

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Backups now done on quit - whose bright idea was that?
« Reply #26 on: July 13, 2010, 01:31:01 PM »

Quote from: kikashi
Happily, I don't use Windows. Software Update runs regularly and automatically: when it tells me that there are updates available, I usually install them immediately. If that involves a reboot, I reboot. Your association with poor proactive system maintenance is indicative of working with Windows, no doubt.

Jeremy

Not sure what you mean: that's exactly how it has worked since Win XP. You can also configure it to run automatically in the background, which might even be default behavior. Ubuntu does the same.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2010, 01:32:18 PM by feppe »
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bjanes

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« Reply #27 on: July 13, 2010, 01:59:23 PM »

Quote from: Wayne Fox
Turning it off takes more energy than managing the system correctly allowing it to sleep after a period of not being used.

http://www.energystar.gov/index.cfm?c=powe...ower_management
The link does not actually say that; it merely recommends using poser management, which make sense. If one does use power management, is it energy saving to turn off the computer at night? If you leave the office at 5:00 p.m. it takes some time of disuse for the power management to kick in (depending on the settings)f, and in the meantime, the computer is at full power rather than being turned off.
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kikashi

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« Reply #28 on: July 13, 2010, 02:43:51 PM »

Quote from: feppe
Not sure what you mean: that's exactly how it has worked since Win XP. You can also configure it to run automatically in the background, which might even be default behavior. Ubuntu does the same.
I was making the point that dreed's cringing was unnecessary.

Jeremy
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dreed

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« Reply #29 on: July 13, 2010, 04:09:12 PM »

Quote from: kikashi
Happily, I don't use Windows. Software Update runs regularly and automatically: when it tells me that there are updates available, I usually install them immediately. If that involves a reboot, I reboot. Your association with poor proactive system maintenance is indicative of working with Windows, no doubt.

Jeremy

So you do actually shutdown and reboot, rather than always just "hibernate", from time to time. And no, not just working with Windows, the same rules apply to all manner of operating systems and computers. Doesn't matter if it is Ubuntu or XP or OS-X. If you think otherwise, you're being naive about software.  Anyway, the point that I wanted to make is that bragging about never needing to shutdown your laptop because you can hibernate is not a meme that should be promulgated, and to which you actually agree by way of the above comment.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2010, 04:10:56 PM by dreed »
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kikashi

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« Reply #30 on: July 13, 2010, 04:35:21 PM »

Quote from: dreed
So you do actually shutdown and reboot, rather than always just "hibernate", from time to time. And no, not just working with Windows, the same rules apply to all manner of operating systems and computers. Doesn't matter if it is Ubuntu or XP or OS-X. If you think otherwise, you're being naive about software.  Anyway, the point that I wanted to make is that bragging about never needing to shutdown your laptop because you can hibernate is not a meme that should be promulgated, and to which you actually agree by way of the above comment.
I wasn't bragging and I don't agree (re-read what I have written) but I can't see any point in continuing the discussion.

Jeremy
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kikashi

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« Reply #31 on: July 13, 2010, 04:38:30 PM »

Quote from: Nick Walker
As a collective I disagree.

If we all powered off standby lights in the UK it is estimated that two power stations could be decommissioned from just extinguishing those insignificant LEDs. UK energy experts state that approximately 7% of our energy is wasted by needlessly leaving on standby lights - US research indicates 5%.
It's not the standby lights that use the power! It's the machines which consume power when supposedly sleeping. Most of them draw considerably more than 3w. I take the point in general but if we start worrying about such trivia we lose sight of the more important picture.

Jeremy
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Schewe

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« Reply #32 on: July 13, 2010, 04:47:59 PM »

Quote from: Nick Walker
Turning the system off and unplugging for 8-10 hours per night uses less energy than sleep mode - shutting down takes barely any energy.  Sleep mode is important for daily use where the computer is used intermittently.


You should also be aware that turning off and turing on any electronics (particularly computers & hard drives) puts more stress on the electronic components than leaving them on and putting them in low power/sleep. Which is why the ONLY time I ever completely shut down my main systems is when I won't be around for multi days/weeks. I use my stuff professionally...anything I can do to keep my system optimal and good health I do.
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dsp

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« Reply #33 on: July 13, 2010, 07:15:58 PM »

Quote from: kikashi
! It's the machines which consume power when supposedly sleeping. Most of them draw considerably more than 3w.
Jeremy

Jeremy is right, most things draw more.  A bit off topic from the original discussion, but for those interested see http://standby.lbl.gov/faq.html
From the energy perspective, sleep is better than fully running, but off (at the wall) is better still. My workstation (at work), which I need to be able to access 24-7 remotely, always on, my home computer (also a workstation), where I do my photography stuff, always shutdown and off at the plugstrip.  For me, the inconvenience of waiting the 1 minute or so for booting is offset by my desire to have a smaller energy footprint, when possible.
best regards, Darcy
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Per Zangenberg

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« Reply #34 on: July 14, 2010, 12:03:04 AM »

Quote from: John-S
Total B.S.

Excerpt from:
http://michaelbluejay.com/electricity/computers.html

You won't wear your computer out by turning it off
You won't wear your computer out any faster by cycling it once a day, or even a few times a day. Modern computers just aren't that fragile. I did hardware troubleshooting at Apple, by the way. If you don't believe me, maybe you'll believe Jonathan Koomey, a project scientist at the Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory, who says, "PCs are not hurt by turning them on and off a few times a day." (Wall St. Journal) The useful life of a computer these days is only a few years anyway. The computer will become obsolete long before you wear it out, no matter how often you cycle it. Bottom line: Turn your computer off when you're done with it (or simply Sleep it), and don't worry about it.

Yeah and also:

It also doesn't take more energy to start a computer than to keep it running. The only extra energy it takes to start a computer is the two minutes or so it takes to start up, which is barely different than any other two minutes' of use. You'll always save energy by turning your computer off when you're not using it.

Despite looking like a cross between Michael Bolton and Angus Young, the dude seems to know what he is talking about.  
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dreed

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« Reply #35 on: July 14, 2010, 12:22:21 AM »

Quote from: John-S
Total B.S.

Excerpt from:
http://michaelbluejay.com/electricity/computers.html

You won't wear your computer out by turning it off
You won't wear your computer out any faster by cycling it once a day, or even a few times a day. Modern computers just aren't that fragile. I did hardware troubleshooting at Apple, by the way. If you don't believe me, maybe you'll believe Jonathan Koomey, a project scientist at the Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory, who says, "PCs are not hurt by turning them on and off a few times a day." (Wall St. Journal) The useful life of a computer these days is only a few years anyway. The computer will become obsolete long before you wear it out, no matter how often you cycle it. Bottom line: Turn your computer off when you're done with it (or simply Sleep it), and don't worry about it.

What Jeff said does not contradict the above. Hard drives are not able to spin up and down an infinite number of times. They're simply not made for that kind of use - even hard drives for laptops. Spin up and down does increase the stress on the drive but at the same time, you've got to do it far more often than a few times a day for it to make a difference.

On the other side of the equation, many hard drives made for consumer systems are designed with an expected usage profile that does not involve them running 24x7.

Whilst I doubt anyone here would wear out a hard drive in a short span of time, I do know people that have because of the sleep-wakeup cycle they were using was just too short (less than a minute) over continued use (several months of 24x7 running.)
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DarkPenguin

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Backups now done on quit - whose bright idea was that?
« Reply #36 on: July 14, 2010, 01:28:45 AM »

Quote from: dreed
What Jeff said does not contradict the above. Hard drives are not able to spin up and down an infinite number of times. They're simply not made for that kind of use - even hard drives for laptops. Spin up and down does increase the stress on the drive but at the same time, you've got to do it far more often than a few times a day for it to make a difference.

On the other side of the equation, many hard drives made for consumer systems are designed with an expected usage profile that does not involve them running 24x7.

Whilst I doubt anyone here would wear out a hard drive in a short span of time, I do know people that have because of the sleep-wakeup cycle they were using was just too short (less than a minute) over continued use (several months of 24x7 running.)

How do you know that is what killed them?
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dreed

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« Reply #37 on: July 14, 2010, 01:33:07 AM »

Quote from: DarkPenguin
How do you know that is what killed them?

Because after a change was made to increase the time between spinups, the lifespan of the hard drives increased dramatically.
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bjanes

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« Reply #38 on: July 14, 2010, 09:06:43 AM »

Quote from: dreed
What Jeff said does not contradict the above. Hard drives are not able to spin up and down an infinite number of times. They're simply not made for that kind of use - even hard drives for laptops. Spin up and down does increase the stress on the drive but at the same time, you've got to do it far more often than a few times a day for it to make a difference.

On the other side of the equation, many hard drives made for consumer systems are designed with an expected usage profile that does not involve them running 24x7.

Whilst I doubt anyone here would wear out a hard drive in a short span of time, I do know people that have because of the sleep-wakeup cycle they were using was just too short (less than a minute) over continued use (several months of 24x7 running.)
This neglects the fact that using power management may turn off the hard drive many times per day, depending on the settings. If you don't use power management and turn off the computer only at night, there is only one spin up cycle.
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DarkPenguin

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Backups now done on quit - whose bright idea was that?
« Reply #39 on: July 14, 2010, 09:18:18 AM »

Quote from: dreed
Because after a change was made to increase the time between spinups, the lifespan of the hard drives increased dramatically.

Same drive brand/series?
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