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Author Topic: S2 test my Mark  (Read 7476 times)

eronald

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« Reply #20 on: June 28, 2010, 10:57:51 am »

Quote from: Ben Rubinstein
I enjoyed the comparison between a P65+ and an S2.

Now lets compare a 1Ds mkIII against a 1D mkIII for resolution.

What a waste of time.

I'm a wedding shooter, we get knocked about a lot, our equipment gets bashed a lot. I've a lot of friends who are PJ's who get knocked about even more. Never once heard a complaint against 'Japanese' reversable lens hoods but apparently the landscape pros really hate them. Definately.

It's tough being a rich hobbyist isn't it...

Dear Mr. Reviewer/Web site owner.
REPEAT AFTER ME: IN REAL LIFE, FOR A WORKING PRO, A LENS HOOD DOES REDUCE STRAY LIGHT, BUT IT IS REALLY  A FRONT ELEMENT PROTECTOR. THIS IS WHY NO SUPER-TELE IS EVER, EVER, EVER DEPLOYED WITHOUT THE HOOD.

Edmund
« Last Edit: June 28, 2010, 10:59:35 am by eronald »
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Christoph C. Feldhaim

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« Reply #21 on: June 28, 2010, 11:00:15 am »

I think I'm going to glue some Ostrich Scrotum Leather on my Mamiya Press and put an additional red spot on it and be happy with it.

/me hides ...
« Last Edit: June 28, 2010, 11:00:35 am by ChristophC »
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ivan muller

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« Reply #22 on: June 28, 2010, 11:21:31 am »

[quote name='eronald' date='Jun 28 2010, 09:57 AM' post='373340']
Dear Mr. Reviewer/Web site owner.
REPEAT AFTER ME: IN REAL LIFE, FOR A WORKING PRO, A LENS HOOD DOES REDUCE STRAY LIGHT, BUT IT IS REALLY  A FRONT ELEMENT PROTECTOR. THIS IS WHY NO SUPER-TELE IS EVER, EVER, EVER DEPLOYED WITHOUT THE HOOD.


Hi,

As were are having the soccer(yes together with the USA we call it soccer instead of Football) world cup here in South Africa at the moment, I was fortunate to be able to go to a couple of matches. I was amazed at all the press photographers. Lots of big white lenses(and black ones too).

But what was rather interesting was how many of the super tele lenshoods were lying on the grass behind the photographers!

As for me I have allways liked the 'look' of a lenshood on a lens. Makes it look somewhat more 'professional'?

Regards,

Ivan
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JeffKohn

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« Reply #23 on: June 28, 2010, 11:37:34 am »

Quote
Some authors here on the forum have explained that the camera tests Mr. Puts does are not very good.
Yes, but this seems to be a case of shooting the messenger. No basis is given for this dismissal, except for the fact it wasn't the expected result. Just like the same folks dismiss DxO tests, or any other rest/review/opinion that doesn't agree with their biases. At some point, you have to offer up a little more to support your position than "trust me, I know what I"m talking about".
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deejjjaaaa

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« Reply #24 on: June 28, 2010, 12:09:05 pm »

Quote from: fredjeang
I'm ready to accept any kind of mistake, and change my point of view if I realised I'm wrong.

remember that "6 stops" incident - neither mr Dubovoy nor mr Reichmann nor P1 people nor P1 dealers offered neither math (like Emil Martinec) nor raw files...
« Last Edit: June 28, 2010, 12:10:04 pm by deja »
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fredjeang

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« Reply #25 on: June 28, 2010, 12:11:10 pm »

Michael, I just have a big regret.

Is that in your testing fashion shot about the S2 with the Phase, you didn't include a parallel testing with a D3x or a 1DsMKIII.
That would have definatly closed the debate about if MF is way superior in terms of IQ exept at high isos. (beautifull model I must say!)

Then, putting some 100% files crops in a dowload site on the important zones like the hair, eyes, skin tones transitions etc...
and the details in the very highlights and the shadows.

For me, I give up, and if some are willing to beleive that the differences are the domain of subtlenesses and almost impossible to perceive in the printings,
fine. We have beleived that some men could walk on the water and even open seas with a stick, so that is indeed a detail in comparaison.

I'm off that thread.

Best luck.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2010, 01:27:40 pm by fredjeang »
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markowich

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« Reply #26 on: June 28, 2010, 12:33:11 pm »

Quote from: BernardLanguillier
Yet... the M9 and P65+ prints look nearly the same...

Cheers,
Bernard

this is a statement for april 1. my D3x at least produces the same print quality as my m9
(if not better for prints larger than A2), it has at least 3 stops more dynamic range and above iso 320
there is no contest between the two. and my P65 'eats both alive' at print sizes larger than A3+.
i have no idea what the tester is seeing, most likely some leica magic---)))
peter
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eronald

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« Reply #27 on: June 28, 2010, 12:42:31 pm »

Quote from: markowich
this is a statement for april 1. my D3x at least produces the same print quality as my m9
(if not better for prints larger than A2), it has at least 3 stops more dynamic range and above iso 320
there is no contest between the two. and my P65 'eats both alive' at print sizes larger than A3+.
i have no idea what the tester is seeing, most likely some leica magic---)))
peter

In the end, if you *need* extreme resolution and clarity, and low ISO DR, the bigger sensor the better. If you need to minimize weight and availability, the smallest cameras (iPhone, compacts, 4/3, M9) win. And the rest of us will continue to use the full-frame pro dSLRs because the fast AF, stabilized lenses, hi ISO, and fast framerates are an unbeatable combination: they can deal passably with any situation.

Is there anyone here who can truly claim he has too little equipment?

Edmund
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ErikKaffehr

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« Reply #28 on: June 28, 2010, 03:54:56 pm »

Edmund,

There is some thing to that...

Erik


Quote from: eronald
In the end, if you *need* extreme resolution and clarity, and low ISO DR, the bigger sensor the better. If you need to minimize weight and availability, the smallest cameras (iPhone, compacts, 4/3, M9) win. And the rest of us will continue to use the full-frame pro dSLRs because the fast AF, stabilized lenses, hi ISO, and fast framerates are an unbeatable combination: they can deal passably with any situation.

Is there anyone here who can truly claim he has too little equipment?

Edmund
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OldRoy

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« Reply #29 on: June 28, 2010, 04:29:40 pm »

Quote from: michael
Here's a cosmic truth –– It's all subjective.

We have a situation today where $1,000 camcorders are producing footage that is visually comparable on screen if not a vectorscope to that from $30,000 pro-level cameras.
Michael
Should you be making such a comparison, IMHO you might find a waveform monitor more useful than a vectorscope...
Roy
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dubomac

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« Reply #30 on: June 28, 2010, 08:40:16 pm »

First of all, I would like to thank everyone for their comments on the article.

Second, I would like to clarify a few points, that hopefully will answer some of the questions posed.

Let me quote directly from the article:" To the naked eye, at normal viewing distances, the M9 24x30 inch prints appear to be in the same general resolution league as the S2 and the P65+. "

Please note the operating words here: "AT NORMAL VIEWING DISTANCES", "APPEAR" (not are), "SAME GENERAL RESOLUTION LEAGUE".

In other words, not with your nose up against the print.  Please note that I never said that IMAGE QUALITY was even close.  I am talking here about APPARENT RESOLUTION only.  I am also not saying that the M9 matches the others, all I am saying is that it appears to be in the same resolution league.

In all the sentences above I am referring to APPARENT RESOLUTION ONLY, not dynamic range, not color, not micro-dynamics, not anything else.

Also, here is a second quote from the article: "Leica has done an admirable job with the contrast, accutance and resolution of the M9 to give the eye the impression of such high resolution".

The operating words here are "TO GIVE THE EYE THE IMPRESSION".

I think this answers the resolution question, but I also want to mention that I specifically said in my methodology that I am talking about how the M9 images come out of Lightroom with no adjustments, and how the MF images come out of RAW conversion with no adjustments.

Here is the more important thing:  

There are a myriad of factors that determine image quality.  And Medium Format has an inherent advantage in many of them versus smaller DSLRs.  

First of all, more megapixels and no AA filters, therefore more resolution. Even if it is subtle, it is always there.

Second, dynamic range.  I have heard many protests about how the DxO tests indicate that dynamic range is the same for small format pro DSLR's versus MF back.  Well, that is simply not the case.  The DxO numbers are based on the number of F/stops between sensor saturation on the high end and signal equals noise on the low end.  This is important information, but it does not tell you the true VISUAL dynamic range of a system.  A crude analogy would be someone telling you the horsepower of two cars. Assume that you have two cars and each one has a 250 horsepower engine.  Are they then automatically equal accelerating from zero to 100 Km/h?

Of course not!  Why?  because one is a sedan with a diesel engine, and the other one is an exotic ultralight with an aluminum composite engine that red lines at 9,500 RPM.

(yes, I am exaggerating here to make the example more poignant).

So, the DxO information is very useful, but not complete.  Medium Format sensors have a totally different noise signature from smaller sensors.  CCD's have a different noise signature from CMOS, the wiring in the chips is different, the physical construction of the photo sites is different, the anti-blooming mechanisms are different, etc.  

The noise signature and the structure of larger MF sensors allows for better extraction of information in the shadows.  MF sensors deliver more visual detail in the shadows and therefore a wider dynamic range (the definition of dynamic range being visible detail with full texture). I would encourage anyone that doubts this to make their own tests.

Richness of color and micro dynamics:  I used to own a P45+.  The first time I tried a P65+ I was blown away.  It was not the resolution difference.  It was something else.  I quickly discovered that it was the richness of color.  The best way to describe it is as follows:  If I took a picture of a leaf with the P45+, and it delivered, say 12 different types of greens, it looked like the P65+ delivered 100. I do not know how else to describe this, and trying to measure it would probably require serious work and instrumentation, but the visual impression was definitely there.

This is an area where to my eyes MF eats the smaller cameras alive.  The richness of the color palette and the differentiation between subtle changes of color is far superior with larger sensors. Same thing with micro-dynamics. The subtle tonal gradations are much finer with MF.

And there are still many other factors relating to noise, relating to color accuracy, relating to lenses, relating to sensor positioning and focusing tolerances and many more.  While the differences in any one factor may be subtle, by the time you pile all the differences on top of one another, you end up with a quite substantial difference.

This is not unlike the days of film, where even putting sharpness aside, large format film delivered a much richer image.  The impact of an 8x10 inch contact print was immediate versus an enlarged 35 mm original, even if one could argue that the 35 mm original was "in the same general  sharpness league" at that size. I think the vast majority of people would agree that an 8x10 contact print looks much better than an enlarged 35 mm print.

So, not to beat a dead horse, to my eyes, in real prints, MF images look significantly better than those captured with smaller cameras.
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LKaven

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« Reply #31 on: June 28, 2010, 11:06:45 pm »

Quote from: fredjeang
Again, I can't beleive that with such big differences in sensor size, there are no significant differences in the final result. These differences exists and are not small between a D3X and let's say a D90.
But suddenly, it results that from 20ish MP CMOS and 40thish CCD the differences then are just more or less academics...
Plausibly, Nikon did finesse the use of the CMOS sensor in a way that the MFDB manufacturers cannot do with a CCD.  I think Nikon did something unusual in the way of signal processing to get the low/black tones on the D3x as pristine as they do.  For example, they might have used biamplification or something like it, which would be basically a hardware implementation of the Zero Noise / Emil Martinec trick.  I don't believe you can get these same advantages out of a CCD due to read noise.  BUT, if the MFDB makers move to CMOS, a number of technological improvements might be open to them, including BSI, and ultimately, stacking functional layers on BSI for active processing on the sensor.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2010, 11:07:12 pm by LKaven »
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LKaven

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« Reply #32 on: June 28, 2010, 11:21:35 pm »

Quote from: dubomac
[...]Second, dynamic range.  I have heard many protests about how the DxO tests indicate that dynamic range is the same for small format pro DSLR's versus MF back.  Well, that is simply not the case.  The DxO numbers are based on the number of F/stops between sensor saturation on the high end and signal equals noise on the low end.  This is important information, but it does not tell you the true VISUAL dynamic range of a system.  A crude analogy would be someone telling you the horsepower of two cars. Assume that you have two cars and each one has a 250 horsepower engine.  Are they then automatically equal accelerating from zero to 100 Km/h?

Of course not!  Why?  because one is a sedan with a diesel engine, and the other one is an exotic ultralight with an aluminum composite engine that red lines at 9,500 RPM.

(yes, I am exaggerating here to make the example more poignant).

I don't know if that is the relevant analogy.  But there is another practical side to this question.

RAW digital images do not emerge like film negatives into an enlarger, and demonstrate their range in a straight mapping to print.  There are many intermediate steps of processing (eg, local contrast enhancements, sharpening, level adjustments), and the "dynamic range" (if any single quantity exists) is evinced in the malleability of the file as much as the final product.  The D3x, for example, plausibly due to enhancements available mainly for CMOS sensors, delivers extraordinarily deep dark/black tones with no trace of noise.  The practical benefits of this involve the ability to withstand extensive processing without loss of impact.  And if you cannot discern these tones on the equivalent of a step-wedge, that does not say they are not perceptible in many ways.

deejjjaaaa

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« Reply #33 on: June 29, 2010, 01:14:33 am »

Quote from: dubomac
A crude analogy would be someone telling you the horsepower of two cars. Assume that you have two cars and each one has a 250 horsepower engine.  Are they then automatically equal accelerating from zero to 100 Km/h?

Of course not!  Why?  because one is a sedan with a diesel engine, and the other one is an exotic ultralight with an aluminum composite engine that red lines at 9,500 RPM.

(yes, I am exaggerating here to make the example more poignant).

oh, so you claim that the difference in acceleration will be what ? "6 stops" (that is 6g in a proper language) ? well, it will be under 1g (under 1 stop that is)... you really need F1 race car to get a little bit over a stop (>1 g) difference in acceleration, but then it will be way above 250hp and then top end FF dDSLRs are no diesels tracks either... and that is regardless of your personal feelings behind the wheel and amount of smoke produced by the review... oops, by the tires... the same with the sensors...
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ErikKaffehr

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« Reply #34 on: June 29, 2010, 05:11:28 am »

Hi,

I agree with that. On the other hand those saying that have considerable experience in the area.

On the other hand, the premises of the test by Mr. Puts could be non typical. Also Mr. Puts writing is sometimes not that easy to follow, so the information in the articles can sometimes be misinterpreted for that reason.

I studied the Erwin Puts artikle with some interest and I could not say that I was not seeing Leica falling short of the D3X. The difference between the D3X and the Alpha was significant. Also, Mr. Puts presents images so the reader can draw his/her conclusion.

Best regards
Erik

Quote from: JeffKohn
Yes, but this seems to be a case of shooting the messenger. No basis is given for this dismissal, except for the fact it wasn't the expected result. Just like the same folks dismiss DxO tests, or any other rest/review/opinion that doesn't agree with their biases. At some point, you have to offer up a little more to support your position than "trust me, I know what I"m talking about".
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