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PaulSchneider

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How big can you enlarge with mfdb?
« on: June 24, 2010, 07:58:54 am »

Hi guys!

I have a small question regarding enlargements with a digital back. I just got back my first 300 dpi lambda print from a 50 MP file and I must say that it is almost too detailed in my eyes. Everything gets so small, I think there must be some massive potential for enlargement left ...

So if you wanted to print something that hangs in a gallery, what percentage of enlargement do you think these kinds of files let you do whilst still retaining a great, detailed print?

I experimented on my screen with the print view command in photoshop (which is about 30% magnification on my screen) and gather that a 150 % enlargement is doable easily, 200 % is still great sharpeness and at about 200-250% I would stop ...

Does anyone have their own experiences in this regard?

Kind regards

Paul
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fredjeang

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How big can you enlarge with mfdb?
« Reply #1 on: June 24, 2010, 08:50:31 am »

Paul,

This is indeed a very interesting topic, that involves many factors.

Like you, for certain kind of photography, I find the high-end backs "too" performants.
You will have noticed the quotes in Too.

There are basically 2 approachs and I think that the first question would be, in wich of those
school you feel confortable to.

1, orthodox, tend to be very strict about the relation between the imput and the output.
Arquitecture, landscapes, products, scientific...

2, more flexible, does not care so much about this relation, yes about the overall result from a certain
distance is enough. Fashion, art, street and reportage, sports...

I've seen very very good 2m sized prints made from a 1D MK3. Very good in wich sense?
Certainly not from the most demanding and orthodox photographers.
They would have not accepted such a print size for that format.
Certainly yes if what you are looking is the final subject from a bearable distance, wich is more or less the
same as the print size. (1m print has to be ideally watch at 1m distance).

Here we go.
The public in an art gallery does not care AT ALL about our preocupations in terms of perfection at big magnifications.
Neither in most of the cases, the client. What they care about is what the picture transmits.

Are you shocked when you watch on the street these enormous advertisings? Are you looking desperatly at 20cm
all the dots and being desperate? It is not fine arts yes, but we should remember that the adj fine has never been related to a quality print standard
but to a quality art standard if I might say. Remember, it is fine arts not fine crafts. (then the printing act would be the center)

So we also see extremely acheived prints that fall appart or are just boring in term of creativity. In fact, that is the most we see IMO.
And I'm fine with that. We can not be all Francis Bacon s and if one brings skills in a craft that is indeed valuable.

But, and sorry if that can lighten some provocation, printing process is a craft, and photography is an art.
And the art needs the craft, the craft needs the art but one is the ocean, the other is the land in wich this ocean lays.

The trap of digital is that we are tempted to think through the software, at 100, 200%. What room do we have? IMO, the real room is
the one you will establish.

I'm amazed that when I look at any pics at 100% in Capture, I generally don't like what I'm seeing. I have this dirtyness feeling, these pixels and artifacts...
regardless of the file's size. MF is just not as bad. But when I sometimes enlarge drastically, it works fine. It all depends if you want people to look at your prints with the magnifying glass.
Photography is not engraving. It works fine because the big enlargements and the computer are totally different animals.

When I was working with Balthazar Burkhard (he passed away recently), a master of huge prints, it was amazing how primitive and unorthodox the process was compare to now, but I bet anything with you that if you see now his 3m + prints today, you are simply impressed and shock by their quality and power.
Now, if we get too close...everything falls appart.

But, Have you seen a big Velasquez painting? Very instructive. You will notice that Velasquez, more the output was big, more he was employing big pencils and less precision. If you watch a big Velasquez very close, all you see is a splash.

The sharpness you are talking about depends only on the distance from wich you want your work to be seen.

All these worries with sharpness and resolution are indeed for the photographic smoking room to take a Rob's expression (I'm learning my english).

We have room, a lot of room for playing and enlarging really big.

Cheers.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2010, 08:53:14 am by fredjeang »
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Doug Peterson

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How big can you enlarge with mfdb?
« Reply #2 on: June 24, 2010, 09:35:45 am »

Quote from: PaulSchneider
I experimented on my screen with the print view command in photoshop (which is about 30% magnification on my screen) and gather that a 150 % enlargement is doable easily, 200 % is still great sharpeness and at about 200-250% I would stop ...

This will have only a loose correlation to the final print. The only real way to make this judgement is by making actual prints; for economy and time I would make 8x10 test prints at various levels of enlargement.

Note that not all raw processors and not all enlargement routines are equal - in fact there can be some very large differences. So experiment with these as well.

Quote from: fredjeang
Here we go.
The public in an art gallery does not care AT ALL about our preocupations in terms of perfection at big magnifications.
Neither in most of the cases, the client. What they care about is what the picture transmits.

I would say it very differently. The public does not care about the sharpness and absolute detail of a large print EXCEPT where the detail is part of the message of the image. In an image of a sweeping landscape the ability to see individual blades of grass and see animals in the distance and feel the texture of rocks in the distance adds actual meaning to the image. It will not turn a mediocre landscape into a good one, but it can enhance the viewing experience of a good landscape. I have noticed many many times a viewer walk up to a large print and notice at a close distance some small detail they had previously missed which added interest to the viewing experience, or comment (out loud) about how "real" the image felt because you could see so much detail.

For some clients the detail of the final image may not be at all important (assuming it meets some low threshold) but for other clients, especially in the areas of product photography, car photography (the remaining non-cgi work), aerial photography, architectural photography, and similar more technically oriented photography the level of detail on large prints can be very important.

Again, the detail in a large print will never be the most important aspect. The image must be compelling, original, emotional, funny, witty, or whatever; composition and subject matter is more important. However, this does NOT mean that the detail level is meaningless. If you've climbed the right mountain on the right day and chosen the right focal length and composed the right scene and waited for the right break of light and you could either capture at a higher resolution or a lower resolution I think the higher resolution will add to the impact/depth/meaning of the final image hanging in the gallery.

Doug Peterson
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fredjeang

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How big can you enlarge with mfdb?
« Reply #3 on: June 24, 2010, 09:45:27 am »

Quote from: dougpetersonci
This will have only a loose correlation to the final print. The only real way to make this judgement is by making actual prints; for economy and time I would make 8x10 test prints at various levels of enlargement.

Note that not all raw processors and not all enlargement routines are equal - in fact there can be some very large differences. So experiment with these as well.



I would say it very differently. The public does not care about the sharpness and absolute detail of a large print EXCEPT where the detail is part of the message of the image. In an image of a sweeping landscape the ability to see individual blades of grass and see animals in the distance and feel the texture of rocks in the distance adds actual meaning to the image. It will not turn a mediocre landscape into a good one, but it can enhance the viewing experience of a good landscape. I have noticed many many times a viewer walk up to a large print and notice at a close distance some small detail they had previously missed which added interest to the viewing experience, or comment (out loud) about how "real" the image felt because you could see so much detail.

For some clients the detail of the final image may not be at all important (assuming it meets some low threshold) but for other clients, especially in the areas of product photography, car photography (the remaining non-cgi work), aerial photography, architectural photography, and similar more technically oriented photography the level of detail on large prints can be very important.

Again, the detail in a large print will never be the most important aspect. The image must be compelling, original, emotional, funny, witty, or whatever; composition and subject matter is more important. However, this does NOT mean that the detail level is meaningless. If you've climbed the right mountain on the right day and chosen the right focal length and composed the right scene and waited for the right break of light and you could either capture at a higher resolution or a lower resolution I think the higher resolution will add to the impact/depth/meaning of the final image hanging in the gallery.

Doug Peterson
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I agree 100% with all the content of your post Doug.

There is absolutly no contradiction between what you wrote and what I did. You added wised, necessary and welcome precisions.

Cheers.
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Rob C

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How big can you enlarge with mfdb?
« Reply #4 on: June 24, 2010, 10:01:37 am »

Boy, is this a can of worms!

I would argue that landscape photography carries a lot of excess baggage with it too.

As Fred pointed out, a painting can vary from an extremely 'photographic' representation, itself a term now in doubt, or alternatively, be little more than an extremely expensive smear. Of course a painting isn't a photograph, but what has that to do with it - they are both representations of another reality, another dimension.

My question: why do photographers seek to strip themselves of similar validity and width of choice?

Some longish time ago I raised the notion on this site about out of focus foregrounds; it works very nicely with some people shots, car shots, product shots, almost anything you care to mention. Why, then, is there still this convention, religion, in landscape of everything having to be crisp from the bottom to the top of the photograph? Everybody knows what a blade of grass looks like - well, almost everybody likely to be in the market for a picture - so why does it make a negative difference if the artist chooses to blur some of it to the greater good? LF can give some excellent OOF imagery if you care to use it that way, and with a tonality you could almost eat.

Photography may be the relative newcomer, but man, does it carry a faux new tradition on its back!

Rob C

ErikKaffehr

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How big can you enlarge with mfdb?
« Reply #5 on: June 24, 2010, 10:24:10 am »

Hi,

It depends... a lot...

One important issue is viewing distance. A large print is normally viewed at a longer distance than a smaller picture.

It also depends on detail. The eye is much influenced by edge contrast on the smallest detail that can be clearly seen, edge contrast may be more important than resolution.

Everything else being equal I wold expect that a 50 MPixel MFDB would  give a benefit of an A size over 25 MPixel, like A1 instead of A2.

There may be other benefits to MFDBs, authors I trust say so. Also, Michael found that 60 MPixels on P65+ was a significant advantage over the P45, enough to motivate an upgrade. Different viewers may alos have different opinion.

Best regards
Erik

Quote from: fredjeang
Paul,

This is indeed a very interesting topic, that involves many factors.

Like you, for certain kind of photography, I find the high-end backs "too" performants.
You will have noticed the quotes in Too.

There are basically 2 approachs and I think that the first question would be, in wich of those
school you feel confortable to.

1, orthodox, tend to be very strict about the relation between the imput and the output.
Arquitecture, landscapes, products, scientific...

2, more flexible, does not care so much about this relation, yes about the overall result from a certain
distance is enough. Fashion, art, street and reportage, sports...

I've seen very very good 2m sized prints made from a 1D MK3. Very good in wich sense?
Certainly not from the most demanding and orthodox photographers.
They would have not accepted such a print size for that format.
Certainly yes if what you are looking is the final subject from a bearable distance, wich is more or less the
same as the print size. (1m print has to be ideally watch at 1m distance).

Here we go.
The public in an art gallery does not care AT ALL about our preocupations in terms of perfection at big magnifications.
Neither in most of the cases, the client. What they care about is what the picture transmits.

Are you shocked when you watch on the street these enormous advertisings? Are you looking desperatly at 20cm
all the dots and being desperate? It is not fine arts yes, but we should remember that the adj fine has never been related to a quality print standard
but to a quality art standard if I might say. Remember, it is fine arts not fine crafts. (then the printing act would be the center)

So we also see extremely acheived prints that fall appart or are just boring in term of creativity. In fact, that is the most we see IMO.
And I'm fine with that. We can not be all Francis Bacon s and if one brings skills in a craft that is indeed valuable.

But, and sorry if that can lighten some provocation, printing process is a craft, and photography is an art.
And the art needs the craft, the craft needs the art but one is the ocean, the other is the land in wich this ocean lays.

The trap of digital is that we are tempted to think through the software, at 100, 200%. What room do we have? IMO, the real room is
the one you will establish.

I'm amazed that when I look at any pics at 100% in Capture, I generally don't like what I'm seeing. I have this dirtyness feeling, these pixels and artifacts...
regardless of the file's size. MF is just not as bad. But when I sometimes enlarge drastically, it works fine. It all depends if you want people to look at your prints with the magnifying glass.
Photography is not engraving. It works fine because the big enlargements and the computer are totally different animals.

When I was working with Balthazar Burkhard (he passed away recently), a master of huge prints, it was amazing how primitive and unorthodox the process was compare to now, but I bet anything with you that if you see now his 3m + prints today, you are simply impressed and shock by their quality and power.
Now, if we get too close...everything falls appart.

But, Have you seen a big Velasquez painting? Very instructive. You will notice that Velasquez, more the output was big, more he was employing big pencils and less precision. If you watch a big Velasquez very close, all you see is a splash.

The sharpness you are talking about depends only on the distance from wich you want your work to be seen.

All these worries with sharpness and resolution are indeed for the photographic smoking room to take a Rob's expression (I'm learning my english).

We have room, a lot of room for playing and enlarging really big.

Cheers.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2010, 01:08:21 am by ErikKaffehr »
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fredjeang

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How big can you enlarge with mfdb?
« Reply #6 on: June 24, 2010, 10:33:16 am »

Indeed Rob.

Of course, if I was a arquitecture photographer for example, I would love to work with a P65 and a tech cam, although I'll probably have also a Canon with the TS lens just in case of practicity. These guys need details and their clients too.

Also fair to say that it is more easy to get less from more than more from less.

But what I'm experimenting today is a strange paradox. I tend to eliminate details, on the other hand, I also tend at the same time to enhance them where I want them to be.
Digital is quasi too perfect. The gap between a beautifull portrait and a dermathologist experience is very narrow with the high end backs.
But if big enlargments are your goals, you will certainly not complain about having that much margen.

But like Rob, I feel that outside the photographic styles that really need to get close to an ideal "perfection", the ones that pointed Doug, there is a sort of distortion in photography that makes us beleive that detail is all we need. I'm fed up of all this DR phoby honestly.

When I look at the B&W film prints, the lack of DR and certain imprecision is what actually makes the planes differences in the perspective.
If you want to acheive that now, you need to eliminate part of the performance we have. Now I'm burning, exposing more drastically to the right and then I have something ready for PP. I'm burning preciselly to eliminate details in the highlights. (oh heresy!)

The same in big prints. Go bigger and bigger with better results. Better in wich way and for what?

What point Erik is very important too: It also depends on detail. The eye is much influenced by edge contrast on the smallest detail that can be clearly seen, edge contrast may be more important than resolution. Indeed.

There are many ways to talk to sharpness or image quality sensation in big prints. There are tricks. he he...
« Last Edit: June 24, 2010, 10:45:50 am by fredjeang »
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ced

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How big can you enlarge with mfdb?
« Reply #7 on: June 25, 2010, 06:27:24 am »

I think 400% can be done without any problem but it must be blown up in stages > 200% direct from the raw file and the rest via PS and the printer rip but I would recommend taking a section of a typical image and putting it through the process as a test to find the correct amount of USM (not too much) for your liking.
Have seen a 6mp Cantare portrait image enlarged to 3.5 meters in the vertical (24 X 36 mm) on a Lambda and it was absolutely stunning.
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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« Reply #8 on: June 25, 2010, 08:16:30 am »

Quote from: PaulSchneider
Hi guys!

I have a small question regarding enlargements with a digital back. I just got back my first 300 dpi lambda print from a 50 MP file and I must say that it is almost too detailed in my eyes. Everything gets so small, I think there must be some massive potential for enlargement left ...

So if you wanted to print something that hangs in a gallery, what percentage of enlargement do you think these kinds of files let you do whilst still retaining a great, detailed print?

Hi Paul,

As you have found out, the Lambda printer is capable of high quality output. More so, even enlarged output has superior quality compared to lesser interpolation attempts. You should be able to produce pretty much whatever output size you need with such good interpolation quality. Sure, absolute resolution will go down as the size goes up, but the viewing distance will probably increase a bit as well. I've seen enlargements from 24x36mm sensors at 2x3 metres (6.6 x 9.8 feet), and even from close up the detail looked quite convincing (although so close it was impossible to enjoy the total scene itself). Just make sure you apply correct postprocessing incl. capture sharpening, and don't overdo it! Postprocessing artifacts are of course also accurately enlanged ...

Quote
I experimented on my screen with the print view command in photoshop (which is about 30% magnification on my screen) and gather that a 150 % enlargement is doable easily, 200 % is still great sharpeness and at about 200-250% I would stop ...

It is hard to predict how the actual output is going to look from judging on a display. The display is low resolution (approx. 1/3rd or less) compared to Lambda output, and the interpolation will be different anyway. You best judge it by having a crop printed on an 8x10in and view that from the distance a larger output would be viewed. Just figure out how large the output would need to be, and choose an appropriate size crop for the 8x10.

Cheers,
Bart
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fredjeang

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How big can you enlarge with mfdb?
« Reply #9 on: June 25, 2010, 11:05:26 am »

Quote from: BartvanderWolf
Hi Paul,

As you have found out, the Lambda printer is capable of high quality output. More so, even enlarged output has superior quality compared to lesser interpolation attempts. You should be able to produce pretty much whatever output size you need with such good interpolation quality. Sure, absolute resolution will go down as the size goes up, but the viewing distance will probably increase a bit as well. I've seen enlargements from 24x36mm sensors at 2x3 metres (6.6 x 9.8 feet), and even from close up the detail looked quite convincing (although so close it was impossible to enjoy the total scene itself). Just make sure you apply correct postprocessing incl. capture sharpening, and don't overdo it! Postprocessing artifacts are of course also accurately enlanged ...



It is hard to predict how the actual output is going to look from judging on a display. The display is low resolution (approx. 1/3rd or less) compared to Lambda output, and the interpolation will be different anyway. You best judge it by having a crop printed on an 8x10in and view that from the distance a larger output would be viewed. Just figure out how large the output would need to be, and choose an appropriate size crop for the 8x10.

Cheers,
Bart
And for the Lambda printer, that is what my lab uses for above 70, they provide an on-line profile to download to make sure you got the correct based tones.


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harlemshooter

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How big can you enlarge with mfdb?
« Reply #10 on: June 25, 2010, 01:06:51 pm »

The line, so to speak, for my personal work is around 40x50 inches @ 360ppi before I perceive that the prints start yielding undesirables (when using slightly uprezzed p65+ files with an Epson 9900 or 11880 on exhibition grade papers).

The enlargement limit for 8x10 drum scanned film far exceeds that, in my opinion. But that is another thing, a beast in fact, altogether.

That aside, if you are going for the jpeggy look of thomas ruff...





Quote from: PaulSchneider
Hi guys!

I have a small question regarding enlargements with a digital back. I just got back my first 300 dpi lambda print from a 50 MP file and I must say that it is almost too detailed in my eyes. Everything gets so small, I think there must be some massive potential for enlargement left ...

So if you wanted to print something that hangs in a gallery, what percentage of enlargement do you think these kinds of files let you do whilst still retaining a great, detailed print?

I experimented on my screen with the print view command in photoshop (which is about 30% magnification on my screen) and gather that a 150 % enlargement is doable easily, 200 % is still great sharpeness and at about 200-250% I would stop ...

Does anyone have their own experiences in this regard?

Kind regards

Paul
« Last Edit: June 25, 2010, 01:09:17 pm by harlemshooter »
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fredjeang

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How big can you enlarge with mfdb?
« Reply #11 on: June 25, 2010, 02:32:33 pm »

Quote from: harlemshooter
The line, so to speak, for my personal work is around 40x50 inches @ 360ppi before I perceive that the prints start yielding undesirables (when using slightly uprezzed p65+ files with an Epson 9900 or 11880 on exhibition grade papers).

The enlargement limit for 8x10 drum scanned film far exceeds that, in my opinion. But that is another thing, a beast in fact, altogether.

That aside, if you are going for the jpeggy look of thomas ruff...
With Burkhard we where enlarging like 3meters, but yes from 8x10 and wet darkroom process on Ilford paper. They where stunning and organic.
I've never reach so far such a size with digital, I'm about half the size (120cm).
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Guy Mancuso

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« Reply #12 on: June 25, 2010, 08:12:20 pm »

Well I should have bought a Epson 9900. My 40 mpx is certainly exceeding the 7900. LOL
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Murray Fredericks

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How big can you enlarge with mfdb?
« Reply #13 on: June 26, 2010, 12:10:41 am »

Quote from: dougpetersonci
I would say it very differently. The public does not care about the sharpness and absolute detail of a large print EXCEPT where the detail is part of the message of the image.




That's the point, detail is only relevant where its part of the message.

I have been exhibiting large prints (120cmx150cm) from 8X10 neg side by side with prints from MFDB to similar size and 'stitched' images from MFDB also. The MFDB prints (stitched) were exhibited at 450cm x 120cm. The textured areas of those really large prints were incredibly detailed. Some of the less detailed areas looked a bit 'mushy' until we added grain.

As far as viewing distance goes, some images will best be viewed at their 'correct viewing distance', and others will have 'pictures within the pictures'. Observing people viewing large prints over many exhibitions, I can say that almost no one keeps to the 'viewing distance' and if the viewer likes the image they will usually walk up to the print and (almost) put their nose on the perspex...

Scale, amount of detail, technical quality are simply choice...tools available for use in the process.

Murray

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PaulSchneider

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How big can you enlarge with mfdb?
« Reply #14 on: June 26, 2010, 09:22:58 am »

Quote from: Murray Fredericks
That's the point, detail is only relevant where its part of the message.

I have been exhibiting large prints (120cmx150cm) from 8X10 neg side by side with prints from MFDB to similar size and 'stitched' images from MFDB also. The MFDB prints (stitched) were exhibited at 450cm x 120cm. The textured areas of those really large prints were incredibly detailed. Some of the less detailed areas looked a bit 'mushy' until we added grain.

As far as viewing distance goes, some images will best be viewed at their 'correct viewing distance', and others will have 'pictures within the pictures'. Observing people viewing large prints over many exhibitions, I can say that almost no one keeps to the 'viewing distance' and if the viewer likes the image they will usually walk up to the print and (almost) put their nose on the perspex...

Scale, amount of detail, technical quality are simply choice...tools available for use in the process.

Murray


Hello Murray,

so you're saying that you both printed out a 8x10 image and a mfdb image from the p65+ side by side at 120 x 150 cm and found the latter to hold up well in direct comparison? Did you use any enlarging software?

For myself I found that using something like photozoom or blow-up doesn't add much when one only enlarges 200% ...

Regards

Paul
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fredjeang

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How big can you enlarge with mfdb?
« Reply #15 on: June 26, 2010, 09:54:32 am »

Quote from: Murray Fredericks
That's the point, detail is only relevant where its part of the message.

I have been exhibiting large prints (120cmx150cm) from 8X10 neg side by side with prints from MFDB to similar size and 'stitched' images from MFDB also. The MFDB prints (stitched) were exhibited at 450cm x 120cm. The textured areas of those really large prints were incredibly detailed. Some of the less detailed areas looked a bit 'mushy' until we added grain.

As far as viewing distance goes, some images will best be viewed at their 'correct viewing distance', and others will have 'pictures within the pictures'. Observing people viewing large prints over many exhibitions, I can say that almost no one keeps to the 'viewing distance' and if the viewer likes the image they will usually walk up to the print and (almost) put their nose on the perspex...
Scale, amount of detail, technical quality are simply choice...tools available for use in the process.

Murray
Indeed, that's my experience too, and I must confess that I'm practising this sport also.
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bjanes

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« Reply #16 on: June 26, 2010, 10:29:33 am »

Quote from: PaulSchneider
Hi guys!

I have a small question regarding enlargements with a digital back. I just got back my first 300 dpi lambda print from a 50 MP file and I must say that it is almost too detailed in my eyes. Everything gets so small, I think there must be some massive potential for enlargement left ...

So if you wanted to print something that hangs in a gallery, what percentage of enlargement do you think these kinds of files let you do whilst still retaining a great, detailed print?

I experimented on my screen with the print view command in photoshop (which is about 30% magnification on my screen) and gather that a 150 % enlargement is doable easily, 200 % is still great sharpeness and at about 200-250% I would stop ...

I think that you are using the terms enlargement and magnification too loosely. With film, enlargement and magnification refer to the ratio of the linear size of the print to the linear size of the film. For example, with 35 mm film, an 8 x 10 inch print represents a magnification of 8x. With digital, it is the picture height in pixels that is most important, and the height of the sensor is less important, assuming that a pixel is a pixel (which is not entirely true, since blur filters and other factors affect image quality).

For example, the Hasselblad H3DII 50 has a sensor of 37 x 49 mm and pixel dimensions of 6240 x 8282. If you print at 300 ppi, this would yield a 21 x 28 inch print. The picture height of the sensor is 37 mm or 1.46 inches, giving a magnification of 14.4

When you look at an image on screen or a print, the angular resolution is the most important criterion, since this takes viewing distance into account. The human visual system can resolve about 1 minute of arc, or 30 cycles/degree, but is most sensitive to frequencies of 6 cycles/degree (see Bob Atkins)/ This is the basis of SQF (subjective quality factor).

If you want an absolutely sharp print you need 300-600 pixels/inch (See Roger Clark). According to his table, a 30 x 50 inch print at 300 ppi would need 135 MP. The Hasselblad has twice the MP of the Nikon D3x, and the linear pixel height is only 1.4 times that of the Nikon, so you could print the Hasselblad at 1.4 x the lateral dimension of the Nikon. For really large prints you have to stitch or use a scanning back. Large format film is another option.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2010, 10:47:57 am by bjanes »
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Murray Fredericks

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How big can you enlarge with mfdb?
« Reply #17 on: June 26, 2010, 10:12:14 pm »

Quote from: PaulSchneider
Hello Murray,

so you're saying that you both printed out a 8x10 image and a mfdb image from the p65+ side by side at 120 x 150 cm and found the latter to hold up well in direct comparison? Did you use any enlarging software?

For myself I found that using something like photozoom or blow-up doesn't add much when one only enlarges 200% ...


I have just started with the p65+ and have not exhibited work shot on this back yet. I was using the Sinar 75LV, so a much smaller resolution back and the results were great. Side by side the digi files held up well, in fact were better in some aspects and worse in others, but really I think the differences would only be noticeable to those who were looking for them.

As far as the printing goes, I work with a great printer who used various methods to res-up the files. The key is a good RIP. We tested using photoshop to go 'up, printing at a lower DPI and using the RIP to interpolate. Then there was selective sharpening and noise/grain added to certain areas.

I think in the end it was a combination of methods used and probably a different method for each image.

Murray



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ErikKaffehr

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How big can you enlarge with mfdb?
« Reply #18 on: June 27, 2010, 01:24:40 am »

Hi,

I'd say that you can probably print big. Large prints will be viewed at a longer distance and that really helps. How much you can enlarge may depend on the image. Some images enlarge very well.

If you are familiar with the European A-sizes each increase in A-size (like A2 to A1) gives the double area. The doubling of MPixels would give you the benefit of one A-size (like A1 instead of A2), if viewing distance is kept constant.

All pixels are not created equal and much is depending on post processing.

Jeff Schewe used to say that you need 180 PPI for a good print. With the P65+ the maximum print size would be 37*49" at 180 PPI,
but you could probably print larger. Also, according to Jeff uprezzing with 200% is possible.

Photographers tend to pixel peep, walk close up to a picture and look at fine detail, no one else does. If your picture hangs over a sofa people may not climb over the sofa just to check detail.

Some photographers make mural size prints, and those photographers probably use large format film.

Best regards
Erik

 


Quote from: bjanes
I think that you are using the terms enlargement and magnification too loosely. With film, enlargement and magnification refer to the ratio of the linear size of the print to the linear size of the film. For example, with 35 mm film, an 8 x 10 inch print represents a magnification of 8x. With digital, it is the picture height in pixels that is most important, and the height of the sensor is less important, assuming that a pixel is a pixel (which is not entirely true, since blur filters and other factors affect image quality).

For example, the Hasselblad H3DII 50 has a sensor of 37 x 49 mm and pixel dimensions of 6240 x 8282. If you print at 300 ppi, this would yield a 21 x 28 inch print. The picture height of the sensor is 37 mm or 1.46 inches, giving a magnification of 14.4

When you look at an image on screen or a print, the angular resolution is the most important criterion, since this takes viewing distance into account. The human visual system can resolve about 1 minute of arc, or 30 cycles/degree, but is most sensitive to frequencies of 6 cycles/degree (see Bob Atkins)/ This is the basis of SQF (subjective quality factor).

If you want an absolutely sharp print you need 300-600 pixels/inch (See Roger Clark). According to his table, a 30 x 50 inch print at 300 ppi would need 135 MP. The Hasselblad has twice the MP of the Nikon D3x, and the linear pixel height is only 1.4 times that of the Nikon, so you could print the Hasselblad at 1.4 x the lateral dimension of the Nikon. For really large prints you have to stitch or use a scanning back. Large format film is another option.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2010, 02:59:58 am by ErikKaffehr »
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Erik Kaffehr
 

harlemshooter

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How big can you enlarge with mfdb?
« Reply #19 on: June 27, 2010, 04:11:35 am »

You should just try it for yourself.



Quote from: ErikKaffehr
Hi,

I'd say that you can probably print big. Large prints will be viewed at a longer distance and that really helps. How much you can enlarge may depend on the image. Some images enlarge very well.

If you are familiar with the European A-sizes each increase in A-size (like A2 to A1) gives the double area. The doubling of MPixels would give you the benefit of one A-size (like A1 instead of A2), if viewing distance is kept constant.

All pixels are not created equal and much is depending on post processing.

Jeff Schewe used to say that you need 180 PPI for a good print. With the P65+ the maximum print size would be 37*49" at 180 PPI,
but you could probably print larger. Also, according to Jeff uprezzing with 200% is possible.

Photographers tend to pixel peep, walk close up to a picture and look at fine detail, no one else does. If your picture hangs over a sofa people may not climb over the sofa just to check detail.

Some photographers make mural size prints, and those photographers probably use large format film.

Best regards
Erik
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