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Curtis Miller

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Pricing Photographs as you move up the ladder
« on: June 22, 2010, 09:05:28 am »

Okay, I expect to get a lot of heated "discussion" here, but I need some input on this subject. I need to give some background here in order to explain where I am with this question.

I am a lifelong artist with a fine arts degree. I have been selling my paintings in a good gallery regionally for ten years now. I say this to indicate that I have not just fallen off the turnip truck.

Over the last couple of years I have been becoming a fine art photographer. I've taken photographs to support my painting since I was in college (mid 1970's) but only recently begun exploring it as an art form in itself. Once I began getting some images I like, I showed them to my gallery and they liked them as well. They've been showing and selling them at modest prices $400 to $600 framed for 16 x 20" and 20 x 26" framed sizes.

Then I started shooting panoramas; I'm interested in landscape and nature, primarily. The panoramas are larger, so they're priced more into the $600 to $700 price range. Realizing that unlike with painting, in photography you can reproduce your work, I began thinking that selling photographs was a workable business model, where I did not feel painting was practical. I couldn't paint enough and sell it at a high enough price to begin to make a living and still enjoy the painting. With photography, I thought if I worked hard enough at the marketing that I might possibly supplement my existing income enough to allow me to photograph near full time.

With that in mind, I put together a portfolio and a self published book and began visiting galleries in the larger cities and artsy communities in my state. The response was frankly much better than I expected. You know how you never really know whether your work is any good until someone else who knows something about it tells you so. I've acquired three new galleries, each better than the last, in different areas. The best gallery encouraged me to make bigger prints and do so on fine art papers rather than the photo papers I was using. I took the plunge and bought a large format printer and started printing on a beautiful Arches Aquarelle water color paper. The results were gorgeous! I couldn't be happier.

That gallery set higher prices, particularly for my larger prints. Now a 27 x 38" print is priced at $850, still not a tremendous amount, but sounding pretty good to me. That's unframed, by the way. This gallery does fantastic framing and is selling my work for up to $1,500 with oversized mats and frames and museum glass. It's a pretty classy operation and they have a good clientelle.

Okay, so now I get to my question. I'm now working on marketing to major city art markets. I'm starting with Chicago because it's relatively nearby. Then off to other major cities including New York. What the heck, I might as well find out if my work cuts it in those cities. If it does, then I can continue this exercise in a serious way. If not, I need to get a day job.

I may sound like I'm in a hurry here and in a sense I am. I'm in my mid 50's and I am not getting any younger. I've been an artist all my life but have never attempted to make it my full time job. I really want to accomplish something before I'm too old to continue working. I want to be an artist full time. I'm tired of working at other things and relegating my artistic projects to second class status.

So I started researching galleries in Chicago and some of them have pricing and resumes posted for their photographers. What I see immediately is that their work is far more expensive! Minimum $1,000 to $1,500 for a smaller print, up to $6,000 to $8000 for a 30 x 40 sized print. They also have incredibly impressive resume's with pages of solo shows, museum collections, grants and awards. Very intimidating.

The problem that I see is that if I send my marketing packet to a gallery like this with my existing pricing structure, I don't think they will seriously consider me. Their expenses are much higher than the regional galleries I've been in and they can't make money a couple of hundred dollars at a time. Especially in New York, rent on a gallery space is incredibly expensive. They need to get their thousands to keep the doors open. They also likely have a clientelle that won't take cheap photographs seriously either. People in these price ranges at least think they are buying something of an investment, something with lasting value, done by serious artists.

So finally the question: how do I price my work in these markets? Do I simply ask for similar prices to what they are selling now? What about my relatively slim resume? I have a handful of real art gallery shows and an art degree. I could list some private and corporate collections if I wanted to but it's not enough to impress anyone.

I'm not afraid to ask high prices for my work. The worst they can do is say no thanks, but a bigger problem is what this then does to my smaller market gallery prices? I don't see how I can be selling my work for one price in Chicago and another in Poughkeepsie. It's not fair to the Chicago gallery and I don't see why they would want to do business with someone who is undercutting them in another city. In this day of the internet, people can and will shop around. I don't think I can have one price structure here and another there.

I don't want to lose galleries that I already have a good relationship with but I don't know if they can sustain prices in the thousands. I could be wrong of course. Maybe I'd sell more if my work was priced in the thousands. There's always the old story where you double your prices and sell much more work because now people think you're more valuable. Who knows?

Anyway, it's a conundrum. I need to send out these packets and they will want pricing information. Actually, having written this all out, I think I can see that I just have to ask more and see what happens. If I am successful with securing galleries that want to represent me at those higher prices then so be it. I'll have to raise prices in my regional galleries. Maybe not all the way to the same level, but pretty close at least.

By the way, I'm thinking of prices that are lower than more experienced artists, but at least in the neighborhood; say $1,000 for smaller prints and $3,000 for large ones.


What do you all think about this? Anyone have experience with this? Any resources to suggest?
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feppe

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Pricing Photographs as you move up the ladder
« Reply #1 on: June 22, 2010, 12:45:52 pm »

I won't comment on the photography-specific topics as there are plenty of people with actual qualifications and experience with selling photos through galleries - but I have comments on the business side which is quite universal.

First of all, don't assume higher prices = higher income. Let's say you sell one humungous print at $5000 in the same time it takes to sell ten smaller ones at $500. Factor in materials, marketing, shipping, own time spent printing, packing, marketing, etc. You might very well end up with a result showing selling more prints at lower prices yields more take-home pay.

Art is a luxury good so there is more tolerance for higher prices than with many other goods, but if you get more income selling lower-priced work there is little reason to increase prices - unless you insist on the prestige of upscale galleries over paying for food, or feel there is a future value in building that prestige which justifies forgoing present value.

It gets better! You are not necessarily limited to one market segment. You were not sure if you can sell at different prices to different customers based on their location - I'll again let others comment there. What you can do is differentiate your product: sell the small prints in Poughkeepsie and the large prints in Chicago. Or make posters for entry-level, portfolios of fine art paper prints for art enthusiasts, and limited edition prints for collectors.

Or you can start teaching workshops which seems to be the way to make money in photography these days.

Rob C

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Pricing Photographs as you move up the ladder
« Reply #2 on: June 22, 2010, 02:51:46 pm »

Prices have always been a problem for 'artists' in pretty well any medium I can think about: it's a classical fight between ego and reality. Worse, it ultimately depends on some unknown person's idea of worth.

I've come across websites of 'name' commercial shooters who also sell stuff as fine art prints. It all makes me wonder - are they really selling any prints or are the big numbers nothing more than a PR ploy to raise the perceived value of said photographers to anyone thinking of hiring them for advertising work?

From advice I've had from people actually selling and living from such print sales, it's the gallery that dictates the market price because, at best, that's supposed to be its little niche of expertise. Perhaps that's the best information there is: leave it to the marketeers to price the work.

I don't like the idea of people selling different types of prints at different prices; I don't really believe that size should govern anything either, because with that as a measure of value it becomes silly, even if that's the way things do look like they are heading. Were I buying, I'd feel somewhat betrayed to find another bought the same thing more cheaply - just like air fares.

These thoughts are NOT bsed on any practical experience of my own - the closest I've been was in April when I was supposed to have a show in a place here in Mallorca. Around Christmas I got a call telling me that the show, and all other new ones there for this year, had been suspended due to lack of projected tourists numbers etc. Thank God I hadn't yet spent the money framing; where could I hang thirty or so A3 pluses in an apartment? Or want to!

Rob C

MattDubuque

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Pricing Photographs as you move up the ladder
« Reply #3 on: July 13, 2010, 11:08:39 am »

First, you need to congratulate yourself on a job well done!  The reason you are where you are is that you have made a very long string of fine decisions that have compounded over time to bring you wonderful benefits and rewards.

I would systematically try to reduce all the levels and layers of uncertainty in your conundrum.   Perhaps an expedition to a city of intermediate size (St. Louis?) can help illuminate some of the underlying business dynamics that drive business markets in both the giant and small cities.

Also, maybe learning as much as you could about galleries that are your fifth or sixth choice in Chicago would be helpful, without telegraphing your viewpoints and perspectives to your ultimate target market.

The key point I would focus on is systematically reducing all types of uncertainty, as much as you can.   That surely will lead to more informed decisions.

Best of luck.  I'm sure things will work out very well for you.....




In terms of being short of time ("I'm not getting any younger"), I would address that by improving your health.  That will give you more time.  I've just finished a book called "The End of Overeating" by David Kesller, former head of the FDA, which might prove helpful in that regard.  

Quote from: Curtis Miller
Okay, I expect to get a lot of heated "discussion" here, but I need some input on this subject. I need to give some background here in order to explain where I am with this question.

I am a lifelong artist with a fine arts degree. I have been selling my paintings in a good gallery regionally for ten years now. I say this to indicate that I have not just fallen off the turnip truck.

Over the last couple of years I have been becoming a fine art photographer. I've taken photographs to support my painting since I was in college (mid 1970's) but only recently begun exploring it as an art form in itself. Once I began getting some images I like, I showed them to my gallery and they liked them as well. They've been showing and selling them at modest prices $400 to $600 framed for 16 x 20" and 20 x 26" framed sizes.

Then I started shooting panoramas; I'm interested in landscape and nature, primarily. The panoramas are larger, so they're priced more into the $600 to $700 price range. Realizing that unlike with painting, in photography you can reproduce your work, I began thinking that selling photographs was a workable business model, where I did not feel painting was practical. I couldn't paint enough and sell it at a high enough price to begin to make a living and still enjoy the painting. With photography, I thought if I worked hard enough at the marketing that I might possibly supplement my existing income enough to allow me to photograph near full time.

With that in mind, I put together a portfolio and a self published book and began visiting galleries in the larger cities and artsy communities in my state. The response was frankly much better than I expected. You know how you never really know whether your work is any good until someone else who knows something about it tells you so. I've acquired three new galleries, each better than the last, in different areas. The best gallery encouraged me to make bigger prints and do so on fine art papers rather than the photo papers I was using. I took the plunge and bought a large format printer and started printing on a beautiful Arches Aquarelle water color paper. The results were gorgeous! I couldn't be happier.

That gallery set higher prices, particularly for my larger prints. Now a 27 x 38" print is priced at $850, still not a tremendous amount, but sounding pretty good to me. That's unframed, by the way. This gallery does fantastic framing and is selling my work for up to $1,500 with oversized mats and frames and museum glass. It's a pretty classy operation and they have a good clientelle.

Okay, so now I get to my question. I'm now working on marketing to major city art markets. I'm starting with Chicago because it's relatively nearby. Then off to other major cities including New York. What the heck, I might as well find out if my work cuts it in those cities. If it does, then I can continue this exercise in a serious way. If not, I need to get a day job.

I may sound like I'm in a hurry here and in a sense I am. I'm in my mid 50's and I am not getting any younger. I've been an artist all my life but have never attempted to make it my full time job. I really want to accomplish something before I'm too old to continue working. I want to be an artist full time. I'm tired of working at other things and relegating my artistic projects to second class status.

So I started researching galleries in Chicago and some of them have pricing and resumes posted for their photographers. What I see immediately is that their work is far more expensive! Minimum $1,000 to $1,500 for a smaller print, up to $6,000 to $8000 for a 30 x 40 sized print. They also have incredibly impressive resume's with pages of solo shows, museum collections, grants and awards. Very intimidating.

The problem that I see is that if I send my marketing packet to a gallery like this with my existing pricing structure, I don't think they will seriously consider me. Their expenses are much higher than the regional galleries I've been in and they can't make money a couple of hundred dollars at a time. Especially in New York, rent on a gallery space is incredibly expensive. They need to get their thousands to keep the doors open. They also likely have a clientelle that won't take cheap photographs seriously either. People in these price ranges at least think they are buying something of an investment, something with lasting value, done by serious artists.

So finally the question: how do I price my work in these markets? Do I simply ask for similar prices to what they are selling now? What about my relatively slim resume? I have a handful of real art gallery shows and an art degree. I could list some private and corporate collections if I wanted to but it's not enough to impress anyone.

I'm not afraid to ask high prices for my work. The worst they can do is say no thanks, but a bigger problem is what this then does to my smaller market gallery prices? I don't see how I can be selling my work for one price in Chicago and another in Poughkeepsie. It's not fair to the Chicago gallery and I don't see why they would want to do business with someone who is undercutting them in another city. In this day of the internet, people can and will shop around. I don't think I can have one price structure here and another there.

I don't want to lose galleries that I already have a good relationship with but I don't know if they can sustain prices in the thousands. I could be wrong of course. Maybe I'd sell more if my work was priced in the thousands. There's always the old story where you double your prices and sell much more work because now people think you're more valuable. Who knows?

Anyway, it's a conundrum. I need to send out these packets and they will want pricing information. Actually, having written this all out, I think I can see that I just have to ask more and see what happens. If I am successful with securing galleries that want to represent me at those higher prices then so be it. I'll have to raise prices in my regional galleries. Maybe not all the way to the same level, but pretty close at least.

By the way, I'm thinking of prices that are lower than more experienced artists, but at least in the neighborhood; say $1,000 for smaller prints and $3,000 for large ones.


What do you all think about this? Anyone have experience with this? Any resources to suggest?
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MikeWhitten

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Re: Pricing Photographs as you move up the ladder
« Reply #4 on: March 08, 2012, 01:53:24 pm »

Curtis - what ever happened?
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elliot_n

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