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Author Topic: Improvised VARI-ND  (Read 3496 times)

fike

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« on: June 21, 2010, 03:35:40 pm »

http://digital-photography-school.com/crea...-density-filter

I am attracted to the simplicity of this idea, but I am suspicious that the quality will diminish too much with the use of two pieces of glass (or more...how many layers are in a polarizer?).  

I would take issue with the author's statement that you can buy a cheap linear polarizer to do the job. I would think that getting better glass would always be a good idea.  (I am one of those people who doesn't use filters unless absolutely necessary, that includes the protective UV filters people recommend").

I have a ten stop ND filter, and this method would seem to be a nice way to get a 1-6 stop ND filter.  

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stulevine

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« Reply #1 on: June 21, 2010, 04:19:22 pm »

I was at a B&H Photo Event a few weeks ago where a Canon representative, Rick Berk, talked about Landscape photography and the use of ND filters.  He also used a 10 stop ND filter by B+W but with the caveat that is imparted a strong color cast to the image that can be corrected in post processing.  He also talked about the Singh-Ray Vari-ND Variable Neutral Density Filter, but complained that at some point down to around 6 stops he started to see some banding effects from the filter in his images.  I guess you would really need to test one on your own camera to confirm this claim.   The only other caveat to the Vari-ND is vignetting on wide angle lenses.  

Anyway, I was turned of by both of these products and instead was thinking of getting the Hoya Neutral Density x400 (ND) 2.7 (HMC) filter since it seemed to receive better reviews and did not impart any color cast like the B+W ND filter.
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fike

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« Reply #2 on: June 21, 2010, 04:32:53 pm »

Quote from: stulevine
I was at a B&H Photo Event a few weeks ago where a Canon representative, Rick Berk, talked about Landscape photography and the use of ND filters.  He also used a 10 stop ND filter by B+W but with the caveat that is imparted a strong color cast to the image that can be corrected in post processing.  He also talked about the Singh-Ray Vari-ND Variable Neutral Density Filter, but complained that at some point down to around 6 stops he started to see some banding effects from the filter in his images.  I guess you would really need to test one on your own camera to confirm this claim.   The only other caveat to the Vari-ND is vignetting on wide angle lenses.  

Anyway, I was turned of by both of these products and instead was thinking of getting the Hoya Neutral Density x400 (ND) 2.7 (HMC) filter since it seemed to receive better reviews and did not impart any color cast like the B+W ND filter.

Yes, the BW 10 stop filter seems to have a brownish cast to me.  It is devilishly difficult to color correct moving brown water that has a brown cast.  

Banding effects would definitely be a no-go for me on this idea.  

One other note on this method. The article at the link above does mention that your light meter and auto focus will probably work erratically, if at all.  That is okay with me.  at ten stops, you can't even compose your image with the filter in place.  You need to fix the camera to a tripod, focus, and then carefully afix the filter and take the shot.
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feppe

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« Reply #3 on: June 21, 2010, 04:38:40 pm »

Not sure what the point is using a circular polarizer in this context. Stacking two linears and twisting them until desired ND is achieved should work just as well for much cheaper, and has only 2 glass elements vs 3.

Haven't tried this since elementary school so no idea if it works in real life

Quote from: fike
Yes, the BW 10 stop filter seems to have a brownish cast to me.  It is devilishly difficult to color correct moving brown water that has a brown cast.

Just shoot a grey card (or color target if you want to get fancy) after shooting the scene and be done with it.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2010, 04:41:53 pm by feppe »
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Luis Argerich

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« Reply #4 on: June 21, 2010, 04:45:48 pm »

I tried this some time ago using a very good CPL and a cheap Linear polarizer on top of it. The results were very bad, there were very strong color casts and variations and I really didn't like the results at all.
I think the Singh-Ray vari-ND  does some magic that the DIY solution ignores.

I'm now using a ND400 by Hoya, and a combination of ND8s to get 3,6,9 or 12 stops depending on using 1 filter or stacking 2.

PS: The cast is not as easy as changing the WB, the cast in the B+W 10 stop filter is infrared filtration, you can't just "unfilter" the IR light from the shot. At least not in an easy way.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2010, 04:47:12 pm by Luis Argerich »
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fike

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« Reply #5 on: June 21, 2010, 04:50:36 pm »

Quote from: feppe
Not sure what the point is using a circular polarizer in this context. Stacking two linears and twisting them until desired ND is achieved should work just as well for much cheaper, and has only 2 glass elements vs 3.

Haven't tried this since elementary school so no idea if it works in real life

I already have the circular polarizer.

Quote
Just shoot a grey card (or color target if you want to get fancy) after shooting the scene and be done with it.

I haven't tried shooting a gray card with the 10-stop ND yet.  That could work. I have had some inconsistent results with gray cards, I presume because I have different color temperatures in different parts of the image depending on what is filtering or reflecting the ambient light--sort of similar to the problem of mixing an incadescent light with a flourescent light and sunlight in the same frame.  You can balance for one color, but it isn't easy to balance for all of them unless you are willing to manually blend regions of the image.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2010, 04:50:49 pm by fike »
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fike

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« Reply #6 on: June 21, 2010, 04:53:35 pm »

Quote from: Luis Argerich
I tried this some time ago using a very good CPL and a cheap Linear polarizer on top of it. The results were very bad, there were very strong color casts and variations and I really didn't like the results at all.
I think the Singh-Ray vari-ND  does some magic that the DIY solution ignores.

I'm now using a ND400 by Hoya, and a combination of ND8s to get 3,6,9 or 12 stops depending on using 1 filter or stacking 2.

PS: The cast is not as easy as changing the WB, the cast in the B+W 10 stop filter is infrared filtration, you can't just "unfilter" the IR light from the shot. At least not in an easy way.

Interesting. thanks. that sort of clears things up.

I wondered if the extra-long exposures that you often get with the 10-stop filters might have IR issues.
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Lightbox

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« Reply #7 on: June 23, 2010, 04:58:20 am »

Lee Filters has released the "Big Stopper" that may suit your needs, I've read that a lot of people aren't seeing colour casts, however some are -

http://www.leefilters.com/camera/news/arti...N4B8F96517C324/

.
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Michael Bailey

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« Reply #8 on: June 24, 2010, 12:15:02 pm »

A couple of points to add:

I don't believe that circular polarizers are necessarily of higher optical quality than their linear equivalents. Either because of market demand or more complex manufacturing needs, they do cost more, true. But they only came into existence at all because the newer TTL systems introduced in the '70's and '80's couldn't meter accurately through the traditional linear type.

Also, I don't think it's necessary to use one filter of each type. The movie industry used double-polarization for years to create fade-outs well before circular polarizers were on the market.

It used to be that all polarizers were actually sandwiches, and for all I know they still are. One sheet of extremely thin material is held between two glass plates. So you optical purists out there might want to go ahead and take your heart pills before you consider that the two-polarizer system might consist of six layers and twelve, count 'em: twelve, surfaces, all dedicated to making your expensive lenses look just a little shabbier. That said, if your pictures stay sharp with this method, there's no point counting or worrying.

A little arcania: If you have an old Polaroid camera, you'll notice that the corporate logo consists of two overlapping circles with the intersection darkened. Before it made any instant cameras, the Polaroid corporation's main product was polarizing material. Edwin Land, the company founder, and my hero, invented the stuff. Until then, polarizing relied on a very expensive mineral only useful in a research lab. In the years before World War II, Land pushed for many applications for his miraculous stuff, but few of them panned out. He wanted to make night driving safer by polarizing windshields and headlights. He tried to get house builders to install double-polarized windows for infinitely variable shading. Those commercial non-starters were among his few professional disappointments.

So, when you attach your polarizing filter, thank Edwin Land. When you watch a 3-D movie, thank Edwin Land. And as long as I'm off the topic, I ask you to consider this: When Polaroid introduced the SX-70 system in the early '70's, the company received 200 patents related to it. Land was awarded forty patents in his own name, just for that one camera. How miraculous was that camera? Miraculous film: SX-70 film had an ISO of about 100, but within a quarter second of exposure it would have completed a chemical process that would make it impervious to direct sunlight. So, the film saw one tiny unit of light to record a view, then instantly blinded itself to several million units of light, while still developing the image. Miraculous camera: the SX-70 was a folding, large format, automatic exposure, soon to be automatic focusing, close-focusing, single lens reflex camera that could fit into a jacket pocket.

And to think I was proud of myself just for getting out of bed on time this morning. If you're as interested in Land as I am, I recommend Land's Polaroid: A Company and the Man Who Invented It by Peter C. Wensberg. It's a fun, light read.

Thanks for tolerating my wandering.  MB
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Michael Bailey

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« Reply #9 on: June 24, 2010, 12:32:31 pm »

This will be quick. I promise.

If you use a slip-in filter like the Lee 10-stop, be careful about light sneaking around it and into your lens. Ten stops means you're blocking all but about 1/1,000th of the light making the photo, so a little sliver getting in behind the filter can wreck your shot. I learned this when I was experimenting with a Wratten gelatin 10-stop in a holder.
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Greg D

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« Reply #10 on: June 24, 2010, 02:52:40 pm »

Quote from: fike
http://digital-photography-school.com/crea...-density-filter

I am attracted to the simplicity of this idea, but I am suspicious that the quality will diminish too much with the use of two pieces of glass (or more...how many layers are in a polarizer?).  

I would take issue with the author's statement that you can buy a cheap linear polarizer to do the job. I would think that getting better glass would always be a good idea.  (I am one of those people who doesn't use filters unless absolutely necessary, that includes the protective UV filters people recommend").

I have a ten stop ND filter, and this method would seem to be a nice way to get a 1-6 stop ND filter.

FWIW, I've been using the circular/linear combination for ND for a couple of months and have so far been happy with it.  I'm using the less expensive (i.e., not MRC) B&W filters.  So far I have not noticed any brown or olive casts that I've seen some complaints of, but I've mostly used it for only 4 stops or less reduction.  On one series of shots that did need about a 10-stop reduction, a very blue sky did take a bit of a purple cast, but that could have happened with just one polarizer.  As for the need for 2 different types of polarizer, it's my understanding that the one next to the lens must be a circular in order for AF to work.  The one on top could be either, but linear was a bit cheaper.  So far so good, but my use has admittedly been limited.
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Sheldon N

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« Reply #11 on: June 24, 2010, 02:56:12 pm »

Quote from: Michael Bailey
This will be quick. I promise.

If you use a slip-in filter like the Lee 10-stop, be careful about light sneaking around it and into your lens. Ten stops means you're blocking all but about 1/1,000th of the light making the photo, so a little sliver getting in behind the filter can wreck your shot. I learned this when I was experimenting with a Wratten gelatin 10-stop in a holder.

The Lee 10 stop filter is made with a foam trim ring that seals the filter up against the holder when it is placed in the first filter slot - preventing light leaks.
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