SpectraView II matrices for wide gamut monitors?

[Steve Weldon]

It does seem pretty tricky to figure out exactly the difference between the NEC puck and a stock ID2 is.

From what we've learned here.. There IS a difference between pucks.  There is also a difference in the software.. some software having built in profiles for supported pucks (NEC for instance), and others don't have these profiles.  Without the profiles I'd image the variation would be quite pronounced.. as in Shaya using the 1di2 with her Eizo monitors.. while me using the same puck with my SVII software (that has built in profiles to support the 1id2 puck) has the potential to be spot on (depending on how close my individual puck comes to their 'average' sample, and the accuracy of the profile), or somewhat of.

From experience I can tell you it appears to be "spot on."  And by "spot on" this means withing a few hundred degrees that's easy enough to adjust/compensate for in your printer profile or whatever else your use 'might' be.  

I have no illusions a 1id2 puck, using SVII software, on ANY NEC monitor will produce noticeable color casts.  It won't.   The same puck, used with Imatch or some other software without the profiles to support a non-wide gamut puck to a wide gamut monitor.. potentially WILL cause color casts.

So.. in the interest of "I'm just damn curious" I ordered a SVII puck through Amazon USA, delivered here to me in Thailand for $318 and $35 shipping (should receive it before the 20th of July).. and we'll see if there are any earth shattering differences.  

AND we'll find out of if the NEC SVII puck calibrated for wide gamut monitors.. works on ALL wide gamut monitors such as the Eizo.

Hell, my displays appear to be and are functioning as perfect.. but in the interest of science (I say that with a half-way straight face) I'm willing to spend a few bucks to find out.


This leads me to my next issues I'm experiencing.  In sRGB emulation mode.. when I process an image to 'average' levels every monitor out there loves it.. but when I put the luminance, contrast, and color so they'll look great on my NEC monitor in sRGB emulation mode.. it appears uncalibrated laptops and cheaper desktop displays without sRGB emulation.. display these files poorly.. to the point they obviously look wrong.

SO.. we'll need a range of adjustment for sRGB "everyone" and then sRGB for those with a full set of calibrated equipment with including sRGB Emulated monitors..

This means.. we process to our audience..  Wonderful unless you don't know who you audience is.

Nail in the head stuff..

But the fact is.. without the monitors and pucks and software in hand.. trying to figure out what will happen "for sure" is (can't say silly, it offends) so.. is.. well.. less than idea..

And of course so far we're only taking about monitors and not the rest of the color system like scanners, printers, publishers, print houses, etc..  And I don't even want to get into the story where I recently calibrated/profiled (by eye because it was all I had.. I knew what my files 'should' look like) a major print houses gear.. and had the owner come out and tell me "that's the best our prints have even looked ever..   These are 12-14 meter long laser printers with four print heads spitting out from 4x6's to 5x7's t 8x10's to 11x14's to 20x24's. Huge investments in gear.. and not a puck or software in site.  It was literally fly by wire.. and they were estatic.  I handed them a card and told them if they made an appointment I'd bring in the right gear and get them set up.  They seemed eager until I told them these calibrations should really be done weekly if not daily in a big print house..

And so the world turns..   So far I have three pucks.. nothing suitable.  Soon I'll have four.  Will the NEC SVII be the major one?

[probep]

From what we've learned here.. There IS a difference between pucks.

Yes, take a look at http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....mp;#entry351434

[Steve Weldon]

Yes, take a look at http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....mp;#entry351434

Sure.. but you know.. 25 Corvette ZR1's coming off the product line one after the other, 25 F200/2 IS Canon lenses, 100 rolls of 4x5 Velvia film.. no matter what it is. there will be a variation of manufacturing tolerances which may or may not affect our personal use of the item depending on how we use that item and what for..

I personally think people are concentrating FAR too much on how the screen looks compared to a theoretical standard.  In our minds we all want it to be perfect.. but include this into the rest of our color workflow, printer profiles, variations in ambient light during different times of the day, how tired our eyes our, and so on and so on.. and these small differences mean less and less.

However, like everyone else I'd love to have perfect color.  But perfect color ONLY exists in my personal closed workflow system.. and perhaps extends to my print house (which I have no control over) or a publisher (even less control).. meanwhile the other 99% of the world looking at our images on the web are using 4-5 year old laptops with faded LCD's not even cable of viewing 30-40% of the sRGB gamut..

Really... I think "silly" fit.. no offense intended..

[WombatHorror]

X-Rite started up production? You sure? OR you’re saying a stock of built units is still available? Big difference.

well spectracal claims that they actually started up production again

if they are telling the truth, then yes

[WombatHorror]

Yes, take a look at http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....mp;#entry351434

Does you NEC puck actually say "MDSVSENSOR2" on it or just "MDSVSENSOR". I ordered mine separately through Amazon and it only has the name without the "2" stamped on top. Is that old stock? (although calman appears to be able to read internal data out of the puck and says that it was calibrated this April, which doesn't sound like old stock at all)   Maybe the 2 just refers to the software version spectraview "II".

[probep]

Does you NEC puck actually say "MDSVSENSOR2" on it or just "MDSVSENSOR". I ordered mine separately through Amazon and it only has the name without the "2" stamped on top. Is that old stock?

I've bought two NEC MDSVSENSOR2 colorimeters at NEC Online Store: one in January and another in May 2010. Each is with "MDSVSENSOR" label and looks like that.

[WombatHorror]

I've bought two NEC MDSVSENSOR2 colorimeters at NEC Online Store: one in January and another in May 2010. Each is with "MDSVSENSOR" label and looks like that.

Thanks.

Yeah, that looks exactly the same as mine. I guess they don't label them as "2".

(and with calman reporting a mid-April 2010 calibration date, safe to say the one I got is the current puck)

I just wanted to be sure that maybe there were not some left over spectraview I kits and that maybe they used a different puck (perhaps adapted to the smaller wide gamuts of some of the older models).

[Steve Weldon]

Does you NEC puck actually say "MDSVSENSOR2" on it or just "MDSVSENSOR". I ordered mine separately through Amazon and it only has the name without the "2" stamped on top. Is that old stock? (although calman appears to be able to read internal data out of the puck and says that it was calibrated this April, which doesn't sound like old stock at all)   Maybe the 2 just refers to the software version spectraview "II".

Larry -  If you wouldn't mind terribly..  Would you give me the link on Amazon where you ordered yours?  Mine hasn't shipped yet and it would be somewhat reassuring they're sending me the right one.  There were two places that claim to have them.. The Amazon Market Place (the only place that will ship to me here overseas) and a place called Proline.

It would be somewhat irritating to pay the shipping over here, not to mention the heavy VAT and customs fees.. and get an old one..

Thanks!

[AndreaPiaggesi]

Sure.. but you know.. 25 Corvette ZR1's coming off the product line one after the other, 25 F200/2 IS Canon lenses, 100 rolls of 4x5 Velvia film.. no matter what it is. there will be a variation of manufacturing tolerances which may or may not affect our personal use of the item depending on how we use that item and what for..

I personally think people are concentrating FAR too much on how the screen looks compared to a theoretical standard.  In our minds we all want it to be perfect.. but include this into the rest of our color workflow, printer profiles, variations in ambient light during different times of the day, how tired our eyes our, and so on and so on.. and these small differences mean less and less.

However, like everyone else I'd love to have perfect color.  But perfect color ONLY exists in my personal closed workflow system.. and perhaps extends to my print house (which I have no control over) or a publisher (even less control).. meanwhile the other 99% of the world looking at our images on the web are using 4-5 year old laptops with faded LCD's not even cable of viewing 30-40% of the sRGB gamut..

Really... I think "silly" fit.. no offense intended..

I completely agree with you but I usually spend a lot of time in RAW conversion, rating, adjustments, Photoshop editing etc ... and probably a perfect monitor with theoretical perfect colors will avoid strange color cast in photolab's prints and will help to get a correct file for your archive.
Tomorrow when you'll buy the next monitor your pictures will look almost the same, without big color shift.

Anyway I agree with you, nobody will see our perfect colors, they'll be limited to our workflow.

Does you NEC puck actually say "MDSVSENSOR2" on it or just "MDSVSENSOR". I ordered mine separately through Amazon and it only has the name without the "2" stamped on top. Is that old stock? (although calman appears to be able to read internal data out of the puck and says that it was calibrated this April, which doesn't sound like old stock at all)   Maybe the 2 just refers to the software version spectraview "II".

Maybe I'm wrong but the MDVSENSOR2 is the custom calibrated sensor especially made for wide-gamut LCD; the MDVSENSOR is the previous version.

[shayaweiss]

Anyway I agree with you, nobody will see our perfect colors, they'll be limited to our workflow.

I might be a rare exception, but for me this work flow is all there is, as I exclusively work for print "in house". (Till now I do not use the Web at all. That may change a tiny little bit though).

[probep]

Maybe I'm wrong but the MDVSENSOR2 is the custom calibrated sensor especially made for wide-gamut LCD; the MDVSENSOR is the previous version.

Excuse me, but... Have you (or anybody else) ever seen MDSVSENSOR2 with "MDSVSENSOR2" label? Once more again, i bought MDSVSENSOR2 at real NEC Store in May 2010. Did you read the FAQ from NEC?

[shayaweiss]

. Did you read the FAQ from NEC?

please point to the source. thanks in advance.

[probep]

please point to the source. thanks in advance.

Sorry, NEC has changed the FAQ. Older NEC colorimeter (MDSVSENSOR) was not custom calibrated and looked like http://www.superwarehouse.com/NEC_GammaCom...NSOR/ps/1552166
I had that one.

[shayaweiss]

Sorry, NEC has changed the FAQ. Older NEC colorimeter (MDSVSENSOR) was not custom calibrated and looked like http://www.superwarehouse.com/NEC_GammaCom...NSOR/ps/1552166
I had that one.

The one sold by B&H looks like that (and Mfr # - I think stands for Manufacturer reference # - MDSVSENSOR2 http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/6136...lor_Sensor.html )! How should the new one look like? Like this: http://www.superwarehouse.com/NEC_Colorime...NSOR2/p/1563233 ?


P.S.: EDIT: I called up B&H they told me it's just an old picture, the sensor is the new mdsvsensor2 straight from NEC. I ordered there, as they are the only ones to ship to my remote place.

[probep]

The one sold by B&H looks like that! How should the new one look like?

My new MDSVSENSOR2 (bought in May 2010) looks like http://www.flickr.com/photos/miahz/3989679014/

[Steve Weldon]

I completely agree with you but I usually spend a lot of time in RAW conversion, rating, adjustments, Photoshop editing etc ... and probably a perfect monitor with theoretical perfect colors will avoid strange color cast in photolab's prints and will help to get a correct file for your archive.
Tomorrow when you'll buy the next monitor your pictures will look almost the same, without big color shift.

Anyway I agree with you, nobody will see our perfect colors, they'll be limited to our workflow.

It hasn't been my experience 'slight' tolerance differences result in color casts.  For instance, NEC lists several pucks that are approved for use with their wide gamut monitors PROVIDED you use their SVII software.  Assuming everything, the software, the monitors, and the pucks.. are all working withing manufacturers tolerances then there will be no significant color casts.  However, if one variable is out of whack there will be color cast, and in all cases there will be small differences in the floating white point which then became unique to our closed systems and something we deal with in the rest of the color workflow such as printer profiles, paper types, the age if ink, and so on.. At least this has been my experience.

Photolabs and archives:  Having just switched to wide gamut displays with an sRGB Emulation mode.. guess what?  None of my archived images appear with the right colors in sRGB Emulation mode.  They do appear with the right colors when using the "Photo editing" or other wide gamut settings.  Of course these images never looked as they should on the web, nor did they print the way they should unless I used a printer with a Adobe98 or ProPhoto setup.. common photo labs didn't display the right colors.

Now.. thanks to the guys with black rimmed glasses and white coats at NEC I can easily switch my monitors to my current use/need.  I can go to sRGB Emulation mode and process an image through my workflow.. and it will look perfect on the web and perfect at a common sRGB lab.  Or.. I can go to Photo Editing mode and my archived images have the right color and will print on my closed system fine.  HOWEVER, if I want to use those images on the web or hav them printed at a common sRGB lab.. I need to change them.. and by this I mean more than assigning a different color profile.  I must put the monitors in sRGB Emulation mode and rework the image (some are easy, some are total reworks, depends on he depth of processing) and work the image.

ASFAIK there is no magic color space/gamut/profile that will work all around.. We have to be conscience of what we're trying to achieve and how we're trying to achieve it.. and be very careful to not jump to blame the monitor or the profile of the puck, etc, etc..  In other words we need to understand what we're doing and how to apply what we're doing to the task at hand.

To make matters more complicated.. some imaging programs and viewers.. are color managed and some are not.. and some will automatically switch the profile as you drag the image from one monitor to the other.. and some won't.  So.. we need to learn which programs are dual monitor friendly..

If someone.. say the Microsoft Team.. had color management as a priority several versions of Windows ago.. we'd probably have it right by now.  I'd guess we have several more generations of software to go until we do.  Take LR3 for instance..

[digitaldog]

It hasn't been my experience 'slight' tolerance differences result in color casts.

I’m not sure why some prevailing assumptions in this thread are that without the one colorimeter, the results are a color cast (whatever that really means). As I said here or in a similar post, my experiences testing the SpectraView with host software, using an EyeOne Display-2 versus an EyeOne Pro Spectrophotometer was a disconnect in about CCT 500K or so in target and measured white point. And considering that the values are kind of meaningless past a starting point, that you have to adjust to taste (to produce a visual match to the viewing booth), I don’t know why one would suspect that an instrument supported in the software would produce a “color cast”. Again, if you have no instrument, go for the mated colorimeter. If you have an instrument supported in the software, use it and season to taste. NEC didn’t support instruments that would fail to produce good final results.

[nilo]

NEC didn’t support instruments that would fail to produce good final results.

which device is not in the list?

*  GretagMacbeth Eye-One Display V1
    * X -Rite/GretagMacbeth Eye-One Display V2
    * X-Rite/GretagMacbeth Eye-One Monitor, Eye-One Pro.
    * X-Rite ColorMunki.
    * Monaco OptixXR (X-Rite DTP 94).
    * ColorVision/Datacolor Spyder 2.
    * Datacolor Spyder 3.

from http://www.necdisplay.com/supportcenter/mo.../compatibility/

[Steve Weldon]

I’m not sure why some prevailing assumptions in this thread are that without the one colorimeter, the results are a color cast (whatever that really means). As I said here or in a similar post, my experiences testing the SpectraView with host software, using an EyeOne Display-2 versus an EyeOne Pro Spectrophotometer was a disconnect in about CCT 500K or so in target and measured white point. And considering that the values are kind of meaningless past a starting point, that you have to adjust to taste (to produce a visual match to the viewing booth), I don’t know why one would suspect that an instrument supported in the software would produce a “color cast”. Again, if you have no instrument, go for the mated colorimeter. If you have an instrument supported in the software, use it and season to taste. NEC didn’t support instruments that would fail to produce good final results.

That pretty much sums up in a single paragraph what I've been trying to say from post one..

And I suspect we can come to and live with this answer because we have enough experience with the entire color profile loop.. while the OP appears to have had a bad experience and not wanting to get burned again.. she's trying to learn everything there is to learn on the subject.. which I can't fault.  Still, she's buying an NEC wide gamut monitor and owns a 1di2 puck.. I say buy SVII online and see where it goes before worrying further.  'We' know where it will go because we have this equipment and it's working fine.. but she's reading some fairly esoteric testing and numbers which are convincing her there must be more difference than we're letting on..   There isn't.. but like I said I can't blame her for wanting to get to the bottom of it.  Its like a lens being "sharp enough.."  MTF tables are helpful, but it's your eye that determines if YOU find it sharp enough or not.  Still, some people get really hung up on every aspect of lens measurement.

Still, even from a purely financial view.. try what you have first.. She's ordering an NEC so SVII is a no brainer (or should be) and she has a 1di2 puck.. give it a try.. see if she's happy.. go from there.

I see this a lot in my workshops.. some haven't yet gained the experience to trust what they're seeing.. so they want a way to measure it and that measurement lends confidence.  We show them how to make a custom white balance setting.. and then we tell them to adjust the skin tones not to the most "correct" as measured, but the most pleasing... and bells and whistles start going off.  I suppose we were all like that as some point.

[digitaldog]

well spectracal claims that they actually started up production again
if they are telling the truth, then yes

They are telling the truth. I just checked with X-Rite and sure enough, they are producing the unit for some OEM’s which is good news.