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Author Topic: SpectraView II matrices for wide gamut monitors?  (Read 48660 times)

Czornyj

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SpectraView II matrices for wide gamut monitors?
« Reply #60 on: June 23, 2010, 05:23:50 pm »

Quote from: shayaweiss
let me seize this opportunity to try to clear something up, which was a matter of wonder for some of us:

We concluded, just now, that a custom mated puck is preferable, right?

How can we understand that NEC lists almost all existing colorimeters, which are not corrected, as compatible with SpectraViewII and wide gamut monitors?

The only explanation, which is very weak, I agree with Steve Weldon, is that, like you said you don't have to, but its better to get the custom tailored one, if you can?!

I am happy to see that you have the same explanation.

Anyone?

Like Graeme said - "The profiling is not affected. Shortcuts taken by the colorimeter makers do affect their accuracy though" - so, as a matter of fact, they're all compatible, it's only a matter that some may be more accurate than others
« Last Edit: June 23, 2010, 05:28:16 pm by Czornyj »
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shayaweiss

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SpectraView II matrices for wide gamut monitors?
« Reply #61 on: June 23, 2010, 05:34:25 pm »

Quote from: Czornyj
Like Graeme said - "The profiling is not affected. Shortcuts taken by the colorimeter makers do affect their accuracy though" - so, as a matter of fact, they're all compatible, it's only a matter that some may be more accurate than others
Thank you Czornyj.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2010, 05:36:31 pm by shayaweiss »
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nilo

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SpectraView II matrices for wide gamut monitors?
« Reply #62 on: June 24, 2010, 05:40:26 am »

Quote from: Czornyj
Like Graeme said - "The profiling is not affected. Shortcuts taken by the colorimeter makers do affect their accuracy though" - so, as a matter of fact, they're all compatible, it's only a matter that some may be more accurate than others

I'll add an additional side note to that conclusions:

It puzzles me that, with x-rite's eye-one Match3 software, theres is no way you'll get these more "accurate results" (I think this is only being diplomatic, because we speak in public, but OK   ), as it only might be used with the i1d2 as colorimeter, if I'm not mistaken. As there are no x-rite branded filtered colorimeters for wide gamut, you'll never get it "really" right with Match3, unless, which is your only option, you buy a spectrometer for a few more bucks  . Maybe should even buy two of them, as you'll also want a UV-cut.

For the rest of us, that do not need that "accuracy", meaning "no accuracy at all", they would be maybe better off eyeballing, and honestly that's what I did in the beginning, calibration/profiling to the "approximatly accurat" white point and afterwards adjusting the white point by eye. I did not find any other way of getting acceptable results out of x-rites eye-one match3 + i1d2 + wide gamut monitor.

I didn't try to use the NEC i1d2 with eye match3 (evidently I'm not speaking of using this setup with a hardware calibration NEC monitor)
« Last Edit: June 24, 2010, 05:50:42 am by ninoloss »
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shayaweiss

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SpectraView II matrices for wide gamut monitors?
« Reply #63 on: June 24, 2010, 06:04:16 am »

Quote from: ninoloss
I'll add an additional side note to that conclusions:

It puzzles me that, with x-rite's eye-one Match3 software, theres is no way you'll get these more "accurate results" (I think this is only being diplomatic, because we speak in public, but OK   ), as it only might be used with the i1d2 as colorimeter, if I'm not mistaken. As there are no x-rite branded filtered colorimeters for wide gamut, you'll never get it "really" right with Match3, unless, which is your only option, you buy a spectrometer for a few more bucks  . Maybe should even buy two of them, as you'll also want a UV-cut.

For the rest of us, that do not need that "accuracy", meaning "no accuracy at all", they would be maybe better off eyeballing, and honestly that's what I did in the beginning, calibration/profiling to the "approximatly accurat" white point and afterwards adjusting the white point by eye. I did not find any other way of getting acceptable results out of x-rites eye-one match3 + i1d2 + wide gamut monitor.

I didn't try to use the NEC i1d2 with eye match3 (evidently I'm not speaking of using this setup with a hardware calibration NEC monitor)

So after all, if you have no NEC, Color Edge EIZO, Quato or LaCie, it seems, for the "suite of the rack" as Andrew puts it, you are a lot better of with datacolors's spyder3, which is filtered, and a software that accepts it and your monitor?!
« Last Edit: June 24, 2010, 06:09:16 am by shayaweiss »
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Czornyj

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SpectraView II matrices for wide gamut monitors?
« Reply #64 on: June 24, 2010, 06:22:56 am »

Quote from: shayaweiss
So after all, if you have no NEC, Color Edge EIZO, Quato or LaCie, it seems, for the "suite of the rack" as Andrew puts it, you are a lot better of with datacolors's spyder3, which is filtered, and a software that accepts it and your monitor?!

No. Andrew mentioned about a colorimeter that is optimized for the specific spectra of some NEC displays, and Spyder is supposed to be optimized for anything.
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shayaweiss

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SpectraView II matrices for wide gamut monitors?
« Reply #65 on: June 24, 2010, 06:59:52 am »

Quote from: Czornyj
No. Andrew mentioned about a colorimeter that is optimized for the specific spectra of some NEC displays, and Spyder is supposed to be optimized for anything.

Sorry, I don't understand your post? If I understand you, it seams to me that there is no contradiction to what I wrote?!

I think we agree, please do correct me if I am wrong! I meant to write:

If you have NO NEC, NO Color Edge, NO Quato and NO LaCie, so there is NO colorimeter that is specific to your wide gamut device, you will be better of with the spyder3, because the spyder3 is, as Andrew put it, filtered and "optimized for anything".

Maybe you meant?: that as it is "optimized for anything" there is no difference to take a software based correction, like Quato iCOlor. It's equally bad, sorry nino, "less accurate", more "suite of the track"ish.


In advance, please forgive me if got it wrong.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2010, 07:02:50 am by shayaweiss »
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Czornyj

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SpectraView II matrices for wide gamut monitors?
« Reply #66 on: June 24, 2010, 07:18:25 am »

Quote from: shayaweiss
Sorry, I don't understand your post? If I understand you, it seams to me that there is no contradiction to what I wrote?!

I think we agree, please do correct me if I am wrong! I meant to write:

If you have NO NEC, NO Color Edge, NO Quato and NO LaCie, so there is NO colorimeter that is specific to your wide gamut device, you will be better of with the spyder3, because the spyder3 is, as Andrew put it, filtered and "optimized for anything".

Maybe you meant?: that as it is "optimized for anything" there is no difference to take a software based correction, like Quato iCOlor. It's equally bad, sorry nino, "less accurate", more "suite of the track"ish.


In advance, please forgive me if got it wrong.

I only meant, that I woudn't count there will be a big difference between Eye-One display2 and Spyder3. According to J.Raimar Kuhnen-Burger: "Although, the EyeOne Dispaly 2´s and Spyder 3´s filter may match better to the CIE curves, they are still far off. As a result, all colorimeters need a correction for
wide gamut (and white LED according to our test)"
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shayaweiss

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SpectraView II matrices for wide gamut monitors?
« Reply #67 on: June 24, 2010, 07:39:45 am »

Quote from: Czornyj
I only meant, that I woudn't count there will be a big difference between Eye-One display2 and Spyder3. According to J.Raimar Kuhnen-Burger: "Although, the EyeOne Dispaly 2´s and Spyder 3´s filter may match better to the CIE curves, they are still far off. As a result, all colorimeters need a correction for
wide gamut (and white LED according to our test)"

Noiw I got it, I hope! The regular 1id2 is as off as the spyder3, that's what Kuhnen-Burger says, right?
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Czornyj

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SpectraView II matrices for wide gamut monitors?
« Reply #68 on: June 24, 2010, 07:54:14 am »

Quote from: shayaweiss
Noiw I got it, I hope! The regular 1id2 is as off as the spyder3, that's what Kuhnen-Burger says, right?

Not exactly, he only states that both are "off", and need some correction (not to mention poor inter instrumental agreement).
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shayaweiss

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SpectraView II matrices for wide gamut monitors?
« Reply #69 on: June 24, 2010, 08:09:56 am »

Quote from: Czornyj
Not exactly, he only states that both are "off", and need some correction (not to mention poor inter instrumental agreement).

The regular 1id2 is off. Spyder3 is off. Maybe to a different degree. Do you know of any data, comparisons, test regarding this particular point?!
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Czornyj

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SpectraView II matrices for wide gamut monitors?
« Reply #70 on: June 24, 2010, 09:11:16 am »

Quote from: shayaweiss
The regular 1id2 is off. Spyder3 is off. Maybe to a different degree. Do you know of any data, comparisons, test regarding this particular point?!

http://lists.apple.com/archives/colorsync-...v/msg00204.html

Note that these are avareraged measurement data are for selected "best batch" of devices.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2010, 09:25:45 am by Czornyj »
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Steve Weldon

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SpectraView II matrices for wide gamut monitors?
« Reply #71 on: June 24, 2010, 09:31:43 am »

Quote from: annamaerz
There is a little difference between you and me, you are aggressive and I defend.
There is certainly a difference between you and me, but it is hardly your place to publicly state this difference any more than it is mine to give my opinion of why you're choosing to get involved in an exchange that was not directed towards you.  And yes I do have an opinion, I just don't feel an overwhelming need to let you know what it is.  Perhaps that is one difference?

Sure, I could come up with something "rude and condescending" like "I wonder if you can listen or read", (words inside quotes are your words) but really what purpose would it serve other than to elevate the discourse?

I am direct and I'll continue to be direct on this subject because I think it needs to be said:  It doesn't seem to be enough that someone asks for and receives help.  They also demand the help arrives in a manner in which they approve.  I apologize if "you're being silly" is seen as some sort of terrible insult.  Believe me, it wasn't my first choice of words.  I had to seriously search for the most polite term I could muster.  However it was taken, it doesn't make it any less accurate.

When I ask for help I'm willing to overlook relatively innocent terms that may result when one of the parties is using English as a second or third language, as well as inflections from the same.  There is also the all too present fact that written words without human exchange are frequently taken differently than intended.  Again, language exacerbates this phenomenon.   The truth is, electronic discussion is fraught with potential misunderstandings in attitude, intent, and so forth and language as well as regional differences can make it much worse.  I can overlook these sort of things, even from a "defender", because I'm more interested in the subject matter than protecting my own fragile feelings.

Not everyone will agree and it would be 'silly' of me to expect everyone to agree.  Another reason why concentrating only on the subject is more productive than rendering intentional insults.

 

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nilo

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SpectraView II matrices for wide gamut monitors?
« Reply #72 on: June 24, 2010, 10:07:49 am »

Quote from: Czornyj
http://lists.apple.com/archives/colorsync-...v/msg00204.html

Note that these are avareraged measurement data are for selected "best batch" of devices.
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annamaerz

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« Reply #73 on: June 24, 2010, 10:15:39 am »

Quote from: Steve Weldon
I apologize if "you're being silly" is seen as some sort of terrible insult.  Believe me, it wasn't my first choice of words.  I had to seriously search for the most polite term I could muster.  However it was taken, it doesn't make it any less accurate.

Hmm. You can't help it?
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shayaweiss

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SpectraView II matrices for wide gamut monitors?
« Reply #74 on: June 24, 2010, 10:53:04 am »

Quote from: Czornyj
http://lists.apple.com/archives/colorsync-...v/msg00204.html

Note that these are avareraged measurement data are for selected "best batch" of devices.

Thank for that link.
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Steve Weldon

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SpectraView II matrices for wide gamut monitors?
« Reply #75 on: June 24, 2010, 01:04:10 pm »

Quote from: annamaerz
Hmm. You can't help it?
LOL.. fair question.  I suppose like most others it depends.  It's an area I can work on..
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WombatHorror

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SpectraView II matrices for wide gamut monitors?
« Reply #76 on: June 27, 2010, 01:50:40 am »

Quote from: Steve Weldon
NEC specifically told me the i1d2 supports wide gamut and its listed in their manual as doing so..

Not only that.. it actually works and profiles the wide gamut as you can clearly see from the attachments..

After you buy your NEC puck.. it will be interesting to see you run it side by side to your current i1d2 puck and show us the difference..

Still curious about the differences of the Euro vs. America vs. Asian spec monitors..

[attachment=22722:i1d2.JPG]  [attachment=22723:i1d2a.JPG]

It does seem pretty tricky to figure out exactly the difference between the NEC puck and a stock ID2 is. It seems to me that they must be using at least a bit of a translation matrix for their puck or have altered the filters or something. I regular ID2 using regular software gives weird results on wide gamut monitors. Stock ID2 pucks also seem to vary quite a bit puck to puck, hopefully the NEC ones have all been calibrated to some specific matching standard.

As a quick test I used two DTP94 pucks and the NEC puck on a standard sRGB-ish gamut monitor and compared the results.

All three gave fairly similar gamma ramp shapes. Really almost exactly the same from 10%-90%  (above 90% the NEC puck started giving a bit different shape).

The NEC puck claimed the black point was deeper than the DTP94 pucks did. On an HTDV both DTP94s put the blackpoint at 0.020 (with white point near 100 cd/m^2) while the NEC puck put the blackpoint at 0.015 and the WP 2cd/m^2 higher and registered a significantly higher claimed contrast ratio.


However, when it came to reading the location of the primaries the NEC puck started to read things differently and when it came to R,G,B balance on the gray-scale ramp it differed considerably from the DTP94 (which both gave pretty similar readings). It seemed to place green at a higher x-coord than the DTP94s and red at a lower x-coord and blue at a higher luminance.

On the set as is the NEC placed both red and green dead on but had blue 5-10% weak along much of the way while both DTP had instead blue and green almost aligned with another and just a touch weak but red an even 10% too hot compared to B/G.  So NEC had green and red aligned and blue trailing and the DTPs had green and blue aligned with red leading. Not really the greatest agreement there between the NEC and either DTP94.

So I'm rather hoping that the NEC puck did have something special done to it that makes it no longer work ideally with alternate software on sRGB monitors, otherwise it's lack of agreement when it came to channel balance and primary readings with the DTP94s is perhaps a bit disconcerting.

One very odd thing is that a program that used compensation matrices had the two DTP94s giving somewhat different results in terms of WB on a wide gamut monitor, even though using regular software on an sRGB monitor they gave pretty similar results.

One of the DTP94 in the generic IPS wide gamut DTP94 mode reported 6450 WB (after calibrated with the NEC puck using spectraview II), the NEC puck gave more like 6670WB though with that software. Perhaps this hints that the NEC puck works at least somewhat well with Spectraview II and yet not as well using other software and thus has had something done to it to make it act differently than a stock ID2?

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WombatHorror

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« Reply #77 on: June 27, 2010, 02:00:55 am »

Quote from: Czornyj
European Spectraview display profiler has correction matrix for NEC display spectra and popular colorimeters, so it's the same approach as Eizo ColorNavigator, and Quato iColor display.
NEC Display America choosed to build custom mated colorimeter rather than make software matrix correction. The Spectraview II checks the sensor type, and when it's not NEC colorimeter or spectrophotometer it creates profiles using factory avaraged measurements taken during production. See Spectraview II Edit>Preferences>ICC Profile tag.

Testing the profile quality against CC24 gives only overall idea of how the profile works, and as a matter of fact it's impossible to get 100% visual connection - the spectra of the displays backlight and the spectra of our lighting is different, and so on...

Interesting, so the European spectraview have tables for say DTP94s?

(although apparently they require such a large correction that they lose a fair amount of precision afterwards.... although then why would quato do this?)
« Last Edit: June 27, 2010, 02:19:45 am by LarryBaum »
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WombatHorror

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SpectraView II matrices for wide gamut monitors?
« Reply #78 on: June 27, 2010, 02:09:24 am »

Quote from: digitaldog
Take it off the list. Its no longer manufactured.

yes, it is, they started production again.

you can only get it through one vendor now though in the US (perhaps also Quato in Europe???).
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digitaldog

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SpectraView II matrices for wide gamut monitors?
« Reply #79 on: June 27, 2010, 10:27:31 am »

Quote from: LarryBaum
yes, it is, they started production again.

you can only get it through one vendor now though in the US (perhaps also Quato in Europe???).

X-Rite started up production? You sure? OR you’re saying a stock of built units is still available? Big difference.
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