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Author Topic: Can we expect new sensors at Photokina?  (Read 21811 times)

bcooter

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Can we expect new sensors at Photokina?
« Reply #40 on: June 26, 2010, 07:50:21 pm »

Quote from: PaulSchneider
Megapixels aside, there's still the allure of the special look one can achieve whilst approaching large format ... I mean the dof appearance ...


If somebody made a 6x7 sensor, how large would the market really be and what cameras would you put them on anyway?

Used RZ;s and Fuji 680's sell for about a buck fifty so there is no money in the lenses or bodies and unless somebody wanted to develop a whole new medium format digital system (that would probably be very expensive) I doubt seriously if everyone that keeps saying they'd love to have a 6x7 sensor on their RZ is going to run out and buy one even if it existed.

Look at Pentax.  They started almost clean sheet and could have gone any direction but they chose a cropped 645 camera, maybe for costs, maybe because they had a built in market of Japanese film photographers that still owned a lot of Pentax 645 glass.

IMO

BC
« Last Edit: June 26, 2010, 07:59:54 pm by bcooter »
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JdeV

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Can we expect new sensors at Photokina?
« Reply #41 on: June 27, 2010, 04:34:15 am »

Thoughts re 6 x 7 sensors...

1) 5-6 micron sensors are hovering around the point of being lens limited. There aren't likely to be anything other than small incremental improvements in lens technology.

2) As lens coverage increases from cropped sensor 35mm to full-frame 35mm to 645 to 6 x 7 to large-format there is a gradual drop in achievable resolution from the best lenses but remarkably little. Recent tests I've done suggest something of the order of 20% less resolution from, say, a Schneider 120mm Super Symmar HM (20+ year old lens design) to a brand new Nikon 70-200mm F2.8. The Mamiya 7 lenses are the equal of top 35mm lenses.

The above two points suggest something that was true in the film days: if we want more resolution, in most circumstances it is better to move towards a larger format.

3) 6 x 7 would be significantly more useable on the back of a view camera.

4) Wides would be easier to come by with less of the problems associated with being so close to the sensor (vignetting, colour casts, mechanical issues etc.).

5) The RZ was the industry workhorse. It's a hugely versatile camera with it's close-focus, ability to hand-hold at 1/30 sec., excellent lenses etc. I used to run a pro darkroom in London and I reckon at least 3/4 of the film we dealt with came from RZs or RBs. If 6 x 7 backs were produced, an updated RZ with a gradual program of new lenses could be extremely popular.

6) In the ten years or so that I've been following digital photography it has always been said that the current largest sensor size is the limit. Sensors have always then got bigger. Because of 1) and 2) this process is likely to continue. The P65+, which was perceived as crazy expensive on launch, is quite widely used now. If Phase were to launch a back with a 6 x 7 90MB sensor at Photokina to fit an RZ then I think people like Michael Reichmann would buy it and a reasonably large number of pro photographers would rent it. (Even if the LCD remained crap and live-view sucked).
« Last Edit: June 27, 2010, 04:36:24 am by JdeV »
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BJL

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Can we expect new sensors at Photokina?
« Reply #42 on: June 27, 2010, 01:53:55 pm »

Quote from: eronald
Same blog sees no stitching artefacts on the Canon sensor.
That is, the same blog sees no stitching artifacts on the AA filter, which is where the stitching artifacts are on the Nikon/Sony sensors.
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LKaven

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Can we expect new sensors at Photokina?
« Reply #43 on: June 27, 2010, 06:24:50 pm »

Quote from: ErikKaffehr
Hi,

I was referring to this article:

http://www.chipworks.com/blogs.aspx?id=4626&blogid=86

It says: "On the Nikon D3 we found a whopping 6 total Analog Devices AD9974 signal processors – presumably two for each color."

http://www.chipworks.com/uploadedImages/Bl...g/DSLR-Blog.jpg

Best regards
Erik

It is an integrated analog front end with A-D converter.  If this was included among the devices you were referring to, I apologize.  I thought you were referring to DSP processing, which is all handled by EXPEED.  I don't think this is two processors per color, but a 12 column readout.   You know when you see vertical banding at low ISO on a D3/D700/D3s it is generally because of the failure of one of these dedicated column units.

PaulSchneider

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Can we expect new sensors at Photokina?
« Reply #44 on: June 28, 2010, 05:21:54 pm »

http://www.dcviews.com/press/dalsa-140.htm

Dalsa already makes sensors almost in a 9x9 format ...

so it remains a question of costs?
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ErikKaffehr

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Can we expect new sensors at Photokina?
« Reply #45 on: June 29, 2010, 05:49:23 am »

Hi,

My idea is just to say that sensor with more pixels need more CPU-power, but that can be achieved, either by having faster devices or by adding more devices. Sorry for being incorrect and thanks for straightening things out.

In my view, given a certain estate of silicon we can implement different number of pixels. Within reason cost will be approximately the same, but we need to add more processing power to handle all data if increase chip density.

Total number of collected photons depends mostly on silicon estate, so total noise and image quality is not really dependent on number of pixels. With increasing number of pixels, resolution will go up (unless limited by lens) and per pixel image quality (Noise and DR) will go down. Total image quality is not much affected by number of pixels, except DR (in the engineering sense) which will decrease with increasing number of pixels, due to reduced "full well capacity" and constant read noise.

My answer to the initial question is "Maybe or Maybe Not".

Best regards
Erik




Quote from: LKaven
It is an integrated analog front end with A-D converter.  If this was included among the devices you were referring to, I apologize.  I thought you were referring to DSP processing, which is all handled by EXPEED.  I don't think this is two processors per color, but a 12 column readout.   You know when you see vertical banding at low ISO on a D3/D700/D3s it is generally because of the failure of one of these dedicated column units.
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Can we expect new sensors at Photokina?
« Reply #46 on: June 29, 2010, 08:24:35 am »

Quote from: ErikKaffehr
Total number of collected photons depends mostly on silicon estate, so total noise and image quality is not really dependent on number of pixels. With increasing number of pixels, resolution will go up (unless limited by lens) and per pixel image quality (Noise and DR) will go down. Total image quality is not much affected by number of pixels, except DR (in the engineering sense) which will decrease with increasing number of pixels, due to reduced "full well capacity" and constant read noise

Hi Erik,

A very good summary.

The last part, the reduced DR per sensel surface area, is IMHO under-valued by the school that advocates more sensel density to the extreme! Downsampling, if done properly, will only recover a certain amount of noise but it is the absolute storage capacity (besides read noise and pattern noise) that limits the maximum DR that's achievable.

Cheers,
Bart
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jimgolden

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Can we expect new sensors at Photokina?
« Reply #47 on: June 29, 2010, 12:44:18 pm »

doubletake - I thought I was on DPReview or whatever its called...
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FlashDB

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Can we expect new sensors at Photokina?
« Reply #48 on: July 03, 2010, 03:54:07 am »

Quote from: Christopher
Well I said it before and I just hope I'm wrong.

What we will see soon:

- a 80+ Mp back, which still has the great old LCD, or a sligly better one, but still far behind current phones which cost only thousand bucks or so.
- same DR, same noise and nothing new

What I would like to see and the only thing I'm really interested:

-60Mp or similar (Can be 80, but ONLY if other things are significantly improved.
- higher DR I would love to see for example something like sensor + but that not only offers higher ISOs, but a higher DR when bined
- Live View .... I don't believe we will ever get it until I see it
- Noise improvements in the ISO 200 and 800 range
- a LCD on the back, which is GOOD, large and can be viewed anywhere.

Hey Christopher

The rumors I hear is that phase will present an 80Mp back at photokina - Let's hope that not only is a larger sensor in the same old wrapping  
If it's from Dalsa we can expect great color reproduction but probably also forget about improvements at high ISO!

/David

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PaulSchneider

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Can we expect new sensors at Photokina?
« Reply #49 on: July 03, 2010, 12:43:31 pm »

Quote from: FlashDB
Hey Christopher

The rumors I hear is that phase will present an 80Mp back at photokina - Let's hope that not only is a larger sensor in the same old wrapping  
If it's from Dalsa we can expect great color reproduction but probably also forget about improvements at high ISO!

/David

How much truth do you attribute to this rumors? 10%, 50 %, 100%? Reliable source?

Regards

Paul
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FlashDB

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« Reply #50 on: July 03, 2010, 01:12:42 pm »

Quote from: PaulSchneider
How much truth do you attribute to this rumors? 10%, 50 %, 100%? Reliable source?

Regards

Paul

Hard to say obviously - but when you start hearing it from more than one source you start thinking.
Bets are open  

/David
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Erick Boileau

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Can we expect new sensors at Photokina?
« Reply #51 on: July 04, 2010, 10:33:58 am »

Quote from: LiamStrain
Am I the only one who would be ok with a 30-50mp back, as long as it was 6x7? Because seriously, that's all I want or need.
the P45 with 39mp was enough and most part of the time too much , that stupid pixel race will end some day


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Mr. Rib

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Can we expect new sensors at Photokina?
« Reply #52 on: July 04, 2010, 11:22:33 am »

I'd be ok with a 31 mp or even 22 mp back as long as it would be a no-crop 6x7.. and let's not go back to the '6x7 back would be 120 not 20 mp' thing. Sensor dimensions > sensor resolution, I just want to stress that. And I'm quite sure I'm not alone in thinking that way. Unfortunately 67 back is as unrealistic as a usable live preview on MFDB. As long as there are no new 67 camera designs, there's not enough money to draw the industry's attention.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2010, 11:26:54 am by Mr. Rib »
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JoeKitchen

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« Reply #53 on: July 04, 2010, 01:11:37 pm »

A 6x7 mm sensor with a res of 31 mp would have 11.6 micron square pixels.  That would morie like hell.
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EricWHiss

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« Reply #54 on: July 04, 2010, 01:23:24 pm »

Quote from: JoeKitchen
A 6x7 mm sensor with a res of 31 mp would have 11.6 micron square pixels.  That would morie like hell.

Yeah but it would be great for anything that needed big DOF and small apertures, and the bigger the sensor the more challenging that becomes.   Also I may be wrong, but my guess is larger sensel pitch will allow better sensitivity and possible improvements in DR.  There probably is no one best solution for all work.
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JoeKitchen

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« Reply #55 on: July 04, 2010, 03:24:25 pm »

Quote from: EricWHiss
Yeah but it would be great for anything that needed big DOF and small apertures, and the bigger the sensor the more challenging that becomes.   Also I may be wrong, but my guess is larger sensel pitch will allow better sensitivity and possible improvements in DR.  There probably is no one best solution for all work.
You make a good point.  Personally I would like to see manufacturers stop the resolution race, stick with what they have, and increase quality with respect to noise, sensitivity, and dynamic range.
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BernardLanguillier

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Can we expect new sensors at Photokina?
« Reply #56 on: July 04, 2010, 06:23:03 pm »

Quote from: JoeKitchen
You make a good point.  Personally I would like to see manufacturers stop the resolution race, stick with what they have, and increase quality with respect to noise, sensitivity, and dynamic range.

Hum... companies design for the benchmarks their products will be submited to. The only DR benchmark I know of is DxO and their results are discarded as soon as they don't match people expectations...

In the end DR claims will end up being perceived as marketing claims since we have de facto collectively decided to give up on DR measurments.

The logical consequence of our choices will be a reduced focus from manufacturers on DR.

Cheers,
Bernard

Snook

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Can we expect new sensors at Photokina?
« Reply #57 on: July 04, 2010, 11:53:42 pm »

No one has even mentioned they cannot even make a decent LCD screen...
I am waiting for the 40 megapixel iPhone to come out until I invest anymore...  
S.
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PdF

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« Reply #58 on: July 05, 2010, 09:09:48 am »

Why not an iPad to view the pictures in a decent format ?

PdF
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Steve Hendrix

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Can we expect new sensors at Photokina?
« Reply #59 on: July 05, 2010, 10:51:24 am »

I believe there will never be a backing up of resolution for medium/large format.

I do hope they keep photosite size where it is or at least don't go too much smaller. I wouldn't rule out that it may go bigger, but if so, I would expect by very little. We have customers using digital backs with 9 and 12 micron photosites who can't shoot higher than 50 ISO without gaining unacceptable levels of noise, color artifacting, etc. Of course that is older technology, but other than Canon with the G11/S90, I can't think of anyone who has backed up on resolution.
The resolution issue is so interesting because I hear so often how "who needs so and so many megapixels, stop already". But I've been hearing this ever since the 22MP DB's came out. And yet, the P65+ has been a huge success.

Canon and Nikon will continue to up the megapixel count, and yet when it is discussed as in rumor about the next model, it's usually as a positive "The 1DS-MKIV is supposed to be 32MP's!". There's very little negativity associated with it....yet.

And for sure that is because Canon/Nikon do so much more with their cameras and in ways that more effectively benefit the demands of commercial photography today. So medium format is seen as concentrating too much on megapixels, size of file, etc, rather than making their cameras more flexible and versatile, ala 35mm. But currently, that is one of medium format's few remaining advantages over 35mm. I can guarantee you that a $28,000 6x7, 24MP digital back will fail in the market place. While some may see advantages in the lower resolution, the majority will pass at paying that premium for a product that captures only 2/3 the file size of 35mm.

I agree and believe that medium format has focused on resolution and chip size enhancement (though modestly), but more because other enhancements take a long time. I know they have been working on them. But in the meantime, you can't fault a company for putting out products that people buy and that do produce revenue. They do have to make money while they work on technology that may be 4-6-8 years away. It kind of puts a drain on R&D if you don't have revenue coming in.

Compared to 35mm, medium format has always had the advantage of bigger imaging area, larger image/file size. Those have been their primary advantages. And those advantages were traditionally necessary and a clear reason to choose them. With the changes in the commercial markets, the type of photography being demanded in general (even with wedding, portrait, architecture, etc), the need for speed, flexiblility, maneuverability, and with 35mm now producing (somewhere) in the range of traditional medium format image quality, (and not to mention crimped stills budgets) medium format's big advantages have lost their influence with commercial photographers (though upping it with other markets that value those assets and appreciate the evolution medium format has made from film-based to digital).

So...I expect that we will see more resolution announced this fall, hopefully spread over a larger sensor size, and hopefully progress will have been made on the issues medium format struggles with - usable LCD, in-camera functionality, etc. I see this as a benefit to those in the commercial field (and elsewhere) who still choose to use medium format  for its strengths. It helps make that choice to remain with medium format easier, which is a very big plus. For those who don't benefit from medium format's strengths, it probably doesn't matter how improved in terms of "usability" medium format gets because it is, at least for the time being, not the right product for them and that choice has already been made.

We'll see.


Steve Hendrix
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