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Author Topic: Running ancient hardware (Spectroscan/lino) on modern machines  (Read 16363 times)

shewhorn

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Howdy folks!

At my studio I have waiting for me a new-to-me Spectroscan/Spectrolino system. These devices in computer chronology are ANCIENT in the sense that they talk to the world via an RS-232 (serial) interface. Now that said... I'm certain I have enough ancient motherboards and other miscellaneous crap around the studio to construct a PC and throw Windows 2000 or Windows XP on it BUT... I was really hoping that I could get it to run on a Mac running Leopard or Snow Leopard. Is anyone using a Spectroscan/lino combo on a Mac running 10.6.3 and interfacing to the SS/SL using a USB to RS232 adapter?

Cheers, Joe
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digitaldog

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« Reply #1 on: May 26, 2010, 01:01:24 pm »

Quote from: shewhorn
I was really hoping that I could get it to run on a Mac running Leopard or Snow Leopard. Is anyone using a Spectroscan/lino combo on a Mac running 10.6.3 and interfacing to the SS/SL using a USB to RS232 adapter?

I have the unit but haven’t used it since Tiger or earlier days so this may or may not be helpful. But I could run it under OS X using a Keyspan adapter on the Mac. Assuming that hardware is still around and drivers still work, you should be able to do this as well. I’d contact Keyspan and if they say that hardware runs under Snow Leopard, you’re good to go.
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digitaldog

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« Reply #2 on: May 26, 2010, 01:10:10 pm »

http://www.tripplite.com/en/products/model...txtModelID=3914

There is a driver for OS X:
Quote
Version 2.6 - Beta Released 09 1 2009
-   This version adds 10.6 compatibility (32bit and 64bit). 
Note:  Version 2.6 is only compatible with Mac OS X 10.6 (aka Snow Leopard).  It is NOT compatible with older versions of Mac OS X (10.5 or older).
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shewhorn

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« Reply #3 on: May 26, 2010, 01:24:38 pm »

Quote from: digitaldog
http://www.tripplite.com/en/products/model...txtModelID=3914

There is a driver for OS X:

Thank you so much. As far as I know the data rate on the Spectrolino (at least according to the spec) caps out at 57.6 kilobits per second (or are there a few different revs... one that perhaps has a higher data rate???). I have a few USB->RS232 adapters lying around somewhere that should do the job. Thanks for the driver info. I'm off to the studio to go play. Hmm... RS232, something tells me I should take up drinking coffee. I might be waiting awhile.  

ETA... for some reason I didn't see your first post which explains things more. Thanks!!!

Cheers, Joe
« Last Edit: May 26, 2010, 01:46:37 pm by shewhorn »
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terrywyse

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« Reply #4 on: May 26, 2010, 02:09:02 pm »

I just fired mine up (Spectrolino/Spectroscan-T) and it seems to work fine. I just set up a "fake" 3x3 custom chart and it went through the motions. I'm using the Keyspan 9pin serial-to-USB adapter (USA-19HS).

System:
MacBook Pro, Intel Core2Duo
OS 10.6.3

Funny you posted this as I just purchased a couple of the Keyspan adapters for my Spectrolino/Spectroscan and my SpectroEye last week but hadn't tried them yet. The Keyspan adapter I had for years came up DOA a couple of months ago. I've also used these adapters in Boot Camp/Windows XP Pro and the work like a champ.

I suspect that's the last measurement my Spectrolino will take for another few weeks/months....but it's still comforting to have it around *just in case*.

Terry
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Terry Wyse
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terrywyse

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« Reply #5 on: May 26, 2010, 02:11:23 pm »

Should've added.....make sure you get the latest driver for the adapter. They had an updated driver for Snow Leopard that I downloaded (using Andrew's link) prior to testing the unit.

Terry
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Ethan_Hansen

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« Reply #6 on: May 26, 2010, 02:11:51 pm »

Joe,

We had a bunch of problems  when trying to drive a Spectroscan from a SL MacBook Pro. The old Keyspan adapter simply refused to work. A cheap (in all senses of the word) adapter did, although you need to download open source drivers for Snow Leopard.

Communications functioned with caveats. I recall needing to screw around with the serial port setting switches on both the Spectroscan table and the adapter to get reliable communication. Also, the Spectrolino could only be used when driven through the Spectroscan table. Hand-held spot measurements and monitor measuring were possible as long as the Lino was cabled through the Scan base. The final gotcha was that the back-and-forth between laptop and Lino took their sweet time. One needed to wait a couple of seconds after pressing <enter> at each corner of a target or the instrument and software both got confused enough to require a power cycle and close/relaunch of the software.

If you are out to make more than occasional use of the Spectroscan, I recommend cobbling together some of your miscellaneous crap for a Windows box. We're running Spectroscans on XP, Server 2008  x64 (including multiple virtual machines on one server), and Win 7 x64.

shewhorn

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« Reply #7 on: May 26, 2010, 08:36:22 pm »

Quote from: digitaldog
http://www.tripplite.com/en/products/model...txtModelID=3914

There is a driver for OS X:

How about this?

http://www.tripplite.com/en/products/model...txtModelID=3915

The model you listed goes to a DB-9 which would work... but I'd need to build a DB-9 to mini-din 8 adapter.

What I'm actually going to try is this:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx...1-118-_-Product

USB to DB9 with a DB9 to DB25 adapter. The Sepctroscan table has a DB25 female connector on the back. I assume it's functional. It's mentioned in the manual but there is no reference to actually using it. Seems kind of strange to put a serial connector there that isn't actually going to be used... too much $$$.

Cheers, Joe
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Ethan_Hansen

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« Reply #8 on: May 27, 2010, 12:50:38 am »

Quote from: shewhorn
What I'm actually going to try is this:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx...1-118-_-Product

USB to DB9 with a DB9 to DB25 adapter. The Sepctroscan table has a DB25 female connector on the back. I assume it's functional. It's mentioned in the manual but there is no reference to actually using it. Seems kind of strange to put a serial connector there that isn't actually going to be used... too much $$$.

Cheers, Joe

The most comprehensive source for strange cable connections I know of is CablesToGo. They have a DB9F to Mini DIN M cable that should be just what the adapter you linked to needs. I am assuming you are not using the powered DB25 to Mini DIN GretagMacbeth adapter. If you are, you will need a short DB9F to DB25M cable to connect the USB/Serial adapter to the GMB adapter and then a Mini DIN M/M cable to get to the Spectroscan.

We never managed to get the DB25 port on the back of the Spectroscan to function. We tried straight through cables from both DB9 and DB25 serial ports as well as null modem connectors. We also tried changing the Spectroscan's handshake mode from none to Xon/Xoff or hardware as well as reducing the baud rate. No love. The connector is wired up inside the Spectroscan, so one assumes it is used for something. What that something is, I have no clue nor did the (at the time GMB) service techs and tech support folks I spoke with.

If you are not using the GMB powered adapter, it behooves you to keep the cable lengths as short as possible, particularly the USB. If you do have the powered adapter you should be able to have a hefty length of RS-232 cable. Two of our Scans have 100 foot cables between the computer and Spectroscan. This connection works fine at 9600 (or maybe 19200) baud, but only when the powered adapter is in place.

terrywyse

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« Reply #9 on: May 27, 2010, 08:22:06 am »

Quote from: Ethan_Hansen
We never managed to get the DB25 port on the back of the Spectroscan to function. We tried straight through cables from both DB9 and DB25 serial ports as well as null modem connectors. We also tried changing the Spectroscan's handshake mode from none to Xon/Xoff or hardware as well as reducing the baud rate. No love. The connector is wired up inside the Spectroscan, so one assumes it is used for something. What that something is, I have no clue nor did the (at the time GMB) service techs and tech support folks I spoke with.

If you are not using the GMB powered adapter, it behooves you to keep the cable lengths as short as possible, particularly the USB. If you do have the powered adapter you should be able to have a hefty length of RS-232 cable. Two of our Scans have 100 foot cables between the computer and Spectroscan. This connection works fine at 9600 (or maybe 19200) baud, but only when the powered adapter is in place.

In my case, I used the short DB9-to-DB25 cable that's supplied with the Spectroscan...along with the aforementioned Keyspan USA-19HS USB-to-serial/DB9 adapter...and the unit is working perfectly on a MacBook Pro/OS 10.6.3. I would forget trying to use the older style Mac serial cable. The DB9-to-DB25 + Keyspan adapter has always worked perfectly for me for both my Spectrolino/Spectroscan and SpectroEye.

Regards,
Terry
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Terry Wyse
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shewhorn

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« Reply #10 on: May 27, 2010, 09:01:38 am »

Quote from: Ethan_Hansen
The most comprehensive source for strange cable connections I know of is CablesToGo. They have a DB9F to Mini DIN M cable that should be just what the adapter you linked to needs.

Thanks. Yeah, that would do it.

Quote
I am assuming you are not using the powered DB25 to Mini DIN GretagMacbeth adapter.

You are correct. I don't think the unit came with it (I just checked for the juicy bits... the UV filter, the polarizing filter, the white calibration patch, etc. which were all there). It did have an 8 pin mini din which I believe had an input for power but I thought that was to supply power to the Spectrolino for a hand held spot measurment or display calibration type of configuration (and not an active serial amplifier).

Quote
We never managed to get the DB25 port on the back of the Spectroscan to function. We tried straight through cables from both DB9 and DB25 serial ports as well as null modem connectors. We also tried changing the Spectroscan's handshake mode from none to Xon/Xoff or hardware as well as reducing the baud rate. No love. The connector is wired up inside the Spectroscan, so one assumes it is used for something. What that something is, I have no clue nor did the (at the time GMB) service techs and tech support folks I spoke with.

  Great... now I want to take the thing apart and draw a schematic (but I'm not sure I have that much motivation). Is it surface mount or discrete components?

I noticed that two of the DIP switches are undocumented and was thinking that perhaps one of them switched between the mini-din and the DB-25 as serial ports in those days were generally pretty dumb and you needed to tell the machine which one you wanted to use.

Quote
If you are not using the GMB powered adapter, it behooves you to keep the cable lengths as short as possible, particularly the USB. If you do have the powered adapter you should be able to have a hefty length of RS-232 cable. Two of our Scans have 100 foot cables between the computer and Spectroscan. This connection works fine at 9600 (or maybe 19200) baud, but only when the powered adapter is in place.

I noticed the default in the documentation is 9600 baud. OY!!!  "Hurry up an wait" comes to mind. Given the price of the instrument ($650) I can't really complain. I do have quite a few profiles to build. I'll bring the bike along and go for LONG rides while I'm waiting for it to finish I guess.

Thanks for the info!

Cheers, Joe
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shewhorn

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« Reply #11 on: May 27, 2010, 10:38:47 am »

I'll give the DB25 a try but... I caved and got this as well:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/4773...al_Adapter.html

It works with the Beta driver that Andrew mentioned. At least I won't have to wonder whether or not the adapter is working as the KeySpans are a known quantity. The other adapter I got was $12.00 bucks shipped so I'll try and get that one running with the DB25, if it works then I have a backup.

Cheers, Joe
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Ethan_Hansen

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« Reply #12 on: May 27, 2010, 11:56:51 am »

The max data transfer rate from the Spectroscan is 57600 baud. It works at this rate when connected to a real serial port. I don't know about through a USB/serial adapter. A faster baud rate completes the measurements for large targets at best a minute faster -- out of 45+ minutes with no filter and 1 measurement per patch or 2-3x that with a polarizer. Spectroscans are not made for the man in a hurry. If you are lucky enough to have one of the newer Spectroscans sold as an iProfile bundle (purple for basic, green for full integrated Profilemaker dongle, both have "iProfile" logo on the Lino) these have ~20% faster X-Y movement, making for noticeably shorter measurement times.

The DB25 to mini din powered adapter is required to run the Lino by itself. Otherwise you need to connect the Lino with a M/F mini din cable to the output on the scan table. The power adapter appears to enable longer cabling runs. As I mentioned above, we have no problems running 100' RS232 cable lengths when the powered adapter is in place, but get consistent communication faults when it is not. A 25' run from computer to Spectroscan works with or without adapter, so it may not be an issue.

Good thought about the two undocumented DIP switches. The next time we need to disassemble a table for maintenance, I'll try to remember to experiment.

Have fun with your new toy! The Spectrolino remains the most accurate spectrophotometer X-Rite/GretagMacbeth produced. It pulls data out of printer/paper combinations that render details in heavy shadows where the newer i1 based instruments record noisy variations of black. Having the full filter set allows you to measure a wider variety of substrates than other instruments as well. Speed? Not so much.

shewhorn

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« Reply #13 on: May 27, 2010, 01:53:58 pm »

Quote from: Ethan_Hansen
The max data transfer rate from the Spectroscan is 57600 baud. It works at this rate when connected to a real serial port. I don't know about through a USB/serial adapter. A faster baud rate completes the measurements for large targets at best a minute faster -- out of 45+ minutes with no filter and 1 measurement per patch or 2-3x that with a polarizer.

Ahhh... the bottleneck isn't the comm rate then... 1 minute faster out of 45 minutes... that's definitely good to know and you probably just saved me some time as I'd have probably cobbled together some older hardware to see if I could get things going at a faster rate.

Quote
Spectroscans are not made for the man in a hurry. If you are lucky enough to have one of the newer Spectroscans sold as an iProfile bundle (purple for basic, green for full integrated Profilemaker dongle, both have "iProfile" logo on the Lino) these have ~20% faster X-Y movement, making for noticeably shorter measurement times.

I'll have to check to for that. I know it's a purple unit but not sure if it was part of a bundle. Faster would be nice but... it's still slow!

Quote
The DB25 to mini din powered adapter is required to run the Lino by itself. Otherwise you need to connect the Lino with a M/F mini din cable to the output on the scan table. The power adapter appears to enable longer cabling runs. As I mentioned above, we have no problems running 100' RS232 cable lengths when the powered adapter is in place, but get consistent communication faults when it is not. A 25' run from computer to Spectroscan works with or without adapter, so it may not be an issue.

I'm only going to be using it with the table so the missing db25 isn't a big deal at all.

Quote
Good thought about the two undocumented DIP switches. The next time we need to disassemble a table for maintenance, I'll try to remember to experiment.

The only thing I can think of is that the db-25 connector has a proprietary wiring and is used for factory diagnostics and calibration but that makes absolutely no sense. From the engineering POV the same can be done through the mini-din serial port. It's rare to add something the to BOM, release a product, and then not use that part as it's cutting into the profits.

Quote
Have fun with your new toy! The Spectrolino remains the most accurate spectrophotometer X-Rite/GretagMacbeth produced. It pulls data out of printer/paper combinations that render details in heavy shadows where the newer i1 based instruments record noisy variations of black. Having the full filter set allows you to measure a wider variety of substrates than other instruments as well. Speed? Not so much.

Thanks. I've been playing around with the i1 Pro and I'm not sure if what I've run into is a limitation of software or hardware (I suspect it's actually a little bit of both) but shadow detail is one are I'm particular picky about and I haven't been able to build a profile yet that really makes me happy. Argyll CMS does really well in certain areas and falls down in other. Eye One Match... well it's limited. You get what you get. I've done the hack to check the gamut mapping from Colorful to chromatic and classic and there were certain improvements for what I'm trying to do with chromatic but I have a feeling that Eye One Match isn't producing the highest resolution profiles as I can see a fair amount of posterization when soft-proofing it against a granger chart. There's also some strange transitions going on that Argyll does a much better job with when passing the -qu argument to colprof. I've been sending some measurement files over to a friend who is averaging them and building the ICC profiles for me so I'm currently checking out Profile Maker but so far it hasn't gotten me where I want to go. I'd like to check out Monaco Profiler as well to see if it might offer any advantages. Even if the Spectrolino doesn't address some of the issues I'm currently seeing it would certainly be my go to choice for canvases.

Out of curiosity have you guys had any experience with the Barbieri Electronics Spectro Swing? Seems like the only tools I hear about for measuring targets are the iSis, and Spectrolino (and on the consumer side the i1 Pro, ColorMunki and Spyder 3 Print).

Cheers, Joe
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Ethan_Hansen

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« Reply #14 on: May 27, 2010, 07:15:11 pm »

Quote
Out of curiosity have you guys had any experience with the Barbieri Electronics Spectro Swing? Seems like the only tools I hear about for measuring targets are the iSis, and Spectrolino (and on the consumer side the i1 Pro, ColorMunki and Spyder 3 Print).

No experience at all. We evaluated a Barbieri spectro 5 or 6 years ago, but that was a very different animal. Spectral data were reported in finer intervals as with the new Swing. The problem was that the data were sufficiently noisy that it required heavy smoothing for software such as ProfileMaker. The Spectro Swing specifications give one pause. The short term repeatability on white has 7x the mean error of the Spectrolino, while the inter-instrument agreement error is 3x higher (2x and 2.5x respectively compared to the Eye-One). The Spectro LFP looks to be the successor to the Spectroscan. $8K for an instrument with lesser specs is not appealing. I'm not sure this is progress...

We use the Spectroscan, iCColor, and iSis for the vast majority of our profiling measurements. The iCColor is finicky, and requires costly repairs on an all too frequent basis (at least when reading the 50+ sheets each per day that ours average) but is nearly the equal of the Spectrolino in terms of measurement performance. No polarizer, however. The iSis is fast, does not require than hand holding and attention the iCColors do, and can be repaired here in the US rather than requiring a months-long trip to Switzerland and back. The measurement head, however, is an i1. The iSis has advantages over the i1 in terms of measurement performance. In no small part this is because the iSis uses X-Y positioning to control location instead of expending the majority of its measurement cycles determining when it is safely over a patch rather than spanning two patches. The iSis does not, however, offer the same resolution into shadow behavior that GMB's previous generation of instruments had.

digitaldog

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« Reply #15 on: May 27, 2010, 07:27:08 pm »

Quote from: shewhorn
Out of curiosity have you guys had any experience with the Barbieri Electronics Spectro Swing? Seems like the only tools I hear about for measuring targets are the iSis, and Spectrolino (and on the consumer side the i1 Pro, ColorMunki and Spyder 3 Print).

The LPF yes (http://www.barbierielectronic.com/n_rodney.htm). Expensive but built like a brick shit-house. I suspect the Spectro Swing is equally well built. These days, if you need to scan transmissive media, Barbieri is the product.
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« Reply #16 on: May 28, 2010, 03:14:38 am »

Quote from: Ethan_Hansen
The iSis has advantages over the i1 in terms of measurement performance. In no small part this is because the iSis uses X-Y positioning to control location instead of expending the majority of its measurement cycles determining when it is safely over a patch rather than spanning two patches. The iSis does not, however, offer the same resolution into shadow behavior that GMB's previous generation of instruments had.

There is some analogy between the iSis and the spectrometer on the HP Z models. As I understand it the last use a longer scan on the heavy, black patches for a better reading. Could it be that this has changed for iSis later generations and isn't that a thing that can be brought back in the driver one way or another? Probably a naïve question.


met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla

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shewhorn

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« Reply #17 on: June 01, 2010, 08:32:49 pm »

Well, this little dude arrived today:

http://www.tripplite.com/en/products/model...txtModelID=3915

I hooked it up (OS X 10.6.3) and it worked perfectly the first time... Kind of. Actually I'm 100% positive that the interface is working. The rest is user error.

So I have the 918 Atkinson patch on 1 page. So, I load it up in the measure tool and the first thing I notice is that the scan table wants to start in the upper left hand corner and the Atkinson chart starts in the upper right hand corner. Not a big deal... I run the positional config placing the head over patch 1, 2, and 3 and pressing enter on the table each time and then start...

When it starts scanning, instead of scanning from the 1st column it starts on the 4th? What did I do wrong? It seems to be working just fine, it's just not in the right place.

Cheers, Joe
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shewhorn

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« Reply #18 on: June 01, 2010, 09:50:59 pm »

Never mind... figured it out... PEBKAC error (Problem Exists Between Keyboard And Chair). This would supremely fall under the category of DUHHHHHH... I knew there had to be a better way to align the friggin chart... turns out it really helps a great deal if you attach the little alignment doohickey instead of using the up/down button... making an adjustment, using the up/down button, etc. DUUUHHHHHHHHH.

It's slowly chugging away as I type.

BTW Ethan... it's the purple iProfile bundle so I guess I have one of the "fast" ones!

Is it wrong that I actually find the sound of the Spectroscan table to be relaxing? Sure as heck beats manually dragging an i1 Pro by hand. Tennis Elbow is the penalty for being a cheapskate and not forking out the $$$ for the iSis.

Cheers, Joe
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Re: Running ancient hardware (Spectroscan/lino) on modern machines
« Reply #19 on: August 06, 2014, 11:10:12 pm »

Well I'm going to dig this one up again...

Enter OS X 10.9.4... [SEINFELD_TO_NEWMAN] Mavericks! [/SEINFELD_TO_NEWMAN]

Actually I like Mavericks... anyhow... Spectroscan, Keyspan USA-28XG, and Mavericks, has anyone gotten this to work? I downloaded the USA-49wg driver which claims to have 10.9 support for the 28xg but ColorPort doesn't see it when I try to connect. I need to scan coated canvas so the polarizer on the Spectrolino is kind of critical for this.

Cheers, Joe
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